Klipsch Speakers = ear Fatigue (for me). What next? - Page 2

Both of you guys may not like Klipsch speakers but given that each of you mentioned driving them with lower end AVRs that still could be the culprit. Fwiw, they aren't as easy to drive as their sensitivity rating suggests.

This is not directed at anyone in particular, it is just conversation.

When I started working this up I thought this exercise would show the Denon 1911 would be more than capable of driving the RF-62's to very loud volume levels without any significant strain.
While there are plenty of assumptions in this post that could be (haha... will be) ripped to shreds I am no longer convinced in my original assumption about the 1911
If you are pushing the volume up to high levels, the RF-62's sensitivity is not as advertised, and they get below 8 ohms you can run out of headroom pretty quick..

So here it goes.

I could not find a review of the Denon 1911 with measured data, but there is one for the 1612 (lower model) that is rated by Denon at 75 watts into 8 ohms, 5 channels driven.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-1612-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

HT measured the 1612 output, two channels, 8-ohm loads, 0.1% distortion at 103.9 watts and 1% distortion at 118.5 watts.
Into 4 ohms, 0.1% distortion at 73.4 watts and 1% distortion at 141.5 watts. (the 4 ohm data seems a little off to me but it is a cut and paste from the website so it is what it is)
With Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohms the 1612 achieved: 0.1% distortion at 71.5 watts and 1% distortion at 79.8 watts.
Conclusion of this is that Denon has not exaggerated the output power of the 1612 and I will make the assumption that the 1911 is not exaggerated either.

The 1911 is similar with a rating at 90 Watts, 8 Ohm, 7 channel(s) and 125 Watts, 6 Ohm, 7 channel(s).

Might as well make it easy http://www.calculatoredge.com/enggcalc/ohm%27s-law-calc.htm
Using Ohm's law, 90 watts into 8 ohms is 26.8V @ 3.35A
For this conversation I am using an output power of 64 watts because it is the highest even multiple (without exceeding the 1911 specs) when you go through the output power doubling for 3dB increase in SPL exercise.
The 1911 should easily achieve 64 watts with plenty of overhead left, 64 watts into 8 ohms is 22.6V @ 2.8A..

Klipsch rates the RF-62II as 97dB @ 2.83V / 1m for sensitivity. Rating sensitivity with voltage instead of wattage can be tricky to the consumer, 2.83V @ 8 ohms is 1 watt but at 4 ohms it is 2 watts so right there the potential for specmamship is on the table. The Sensitivity may very well be 97dB across the frequency range if 2.83V is held constant.
I do not know if the sensitivity rating is optimistic or not but there is plenty of feedback in this and other threads that this is the case.
So for conversation purposes let's use 97dB and 90dB as baseline sensitivity numbers.
If 97dB sensitivity is the right answer 64w = 115dB SPL and 90dB sensitivity works out to be 108dB.
There is a lot of difference between those two numbers and keep in mind this is at 1 meter from the speaker so if you are 12 to 15 ft away you may need close to 108 output at 1 meter to get reference level at the listening position.
The real world sensitivity will make a huge difference in the amplifier power requirements.

If the volume of the AVR was set to produce nominal 64w into 8 ohms that would roughly make the output voltage of the amp 22.6V with output current of 2.8A.
The question is can the 1911 hold the 22.6V, on the output if the RF-62's are less than 8 ohms ?
22.6V into 8 ohms = 2.8A.(22.6V x 2.8A = 64W),
22.6V into 6 ohms = 3.8A, (22.6V x 3.8A =85W),
22.6V into 4 ohms = 5.6A, (22.6V x 5.6A = 127W),
22.6V into 3.8 ohms = 5.9A (22.6V x 5.9A = 134W),
You can see where the 1911 will be hitting the upper limits, it does not take much of a dip in the speaker resistance / impedance to really jack up the current requirements.

Of course this is a pretty simple description, and considering text books have been written around this subject matter take this for whatever you think its worth.

Is the AVR contributing to a harsh sound ??
I don't know, but if you are listening at high volume it could be.

Here are a set of measurements for a Denon 90 watt receiver - the 75 watt 1612 Denon, is a good one for the money.
http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2112ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Edited by zieglj01 - 8/25/12 at 9:02pm

Reading at this makes me worried. I have a Denon 3312 and I'm planning to get the RF62-II. Speaker to ear distance is about 9 to 10 feet. Is the juice enough?

If you're going be listening at normal to what is generally considered loud listening conditions, yes, at eighty tested watts, you're good to go. If you're wanting to reach reference levels or to try and wake up the dead on the weekends, with it's full set of pre-outs in which to connect an outboard amplifier, again you're good to go.

Here's the test results for your 3312Ci.

There seems to be fear going around between receivers and speakers - a lot of people do not
drive their speakers at reference levels. Even with the somewhat optimistic sensitivity, the 62
speakers will get loud. How big is your room, and what loudness level are you looking for?

The 3312 is a different animal than the other AVR's that have been referenced.
The two channel tests show some healthy output power, into 8 ohms it gets 123 watts at 0.1 percent distortion and and the 4 ohm test holds up very well with 202 watts at 0.1 percent distortion.
The 3312 should hold up its end of the bargain very well.

+1

I'll be having 7 channels (7.1 setup) at -10dB on master volume. I don't go louder than that.
Living hall space (opened to other room) is about 16 feet wide x 25 feet long x 9 feet high.

If you have auditioned the speakers and you like them then I think you are golden.
If you are buying them without listening to them, all bets are off.
I bought Klipsch because I picked them after auditioning many different speakers and they bubbled into the top three in my price range.
As far as your AVR is concerned you have a very good one.
Real world content seldom (if ever) hits peak power on more than one channel at a time.

I really do not think the thread-starter's lack of satisfaction is being caused by his AVR (it is possible though).
I think he bought speakers based off of reviews and now that he owns them he does not really like them.
It happens.
Other Klipsch owners need not be offended when the old ear fatigue moniker is thrown out (even though it does get annoying after a while) because that label could be slapped on a lot of other very popular speakers that are not horn loaded.

Hey Jim Z
What part of the great state are you in ?

Lumberton Texas, in the Harden County and Beaumont area.

You will be fine - There is nothing wrong with being a Klipsch owner > make sure they are the right
choice for you. As was stated above >> It is rare for all channels to be driven at refernce volume at
the same time. A lot of people listen at 95db and lower, and still enjoy and have fun.

OP did you try my suggestion?

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2

Simple . . . If your room is such you cannot properly lace the RF62s--out of the corners about a foot from the wall not toed at all while aiming straight at the couch, those speakers will never work in that room. Simple . . . Toed in the corners outside the couch will not work well for RF62s to shine.

As well, on your AVR, the RF62s should be set to small not LARGE, and the sub to LFE, not "LFE+MAIN". And at first, go with a flat eq . . . Often, Klipsch are at their best flat, especially the smaller fronts running all of the lows to the sub . . . If it is a good sub.

If you cannot get the RF62s out of the corners, untoe them, and place them a foot away from the wall, and set them to small and run all lows to the sub (RF62s have no real lows), then sell them off and get something else, something boomy and cheap that will fly out of a corner. And sell the RC62, since it is perfectly matched to the RF62s, you wn't need it.

Do you have enough sub to handle all of the lows? Not if you are using RF62s as Large and Mains shifting half the sub to speakers which have no real sub handling, especially for HT.

Could be that since your sub is splitting the signal with the RF62s, or it is a sub underpowered for the RF62s and RC62, then the Klipsch seem "bright and harsh" because your lows are nadequate.

What kind of sub,are you running and how have you set sub handling in your Denon.

Since you already packed them away, may not want to bother setting them up right. So . . .

Put them on sale on the Klipsch forum . . . Someone in the land down under will be thrilled with them, well, once setup right in the room and through the AVR.
Edited by Rhetor - 8/27/12 at 4:36pm

Edited.



-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/27/12 at 4:44pm

Nice editorial catch . . . Edited! Edited,before my Mom washed my mouth out with soap!

Darn, now I have to edit your pre-edited comment.

Edited.

LOL

I have a feeling you may be "overhearing" the highs with that weaker sub. Just can't keep up with your horn loaded speakers. Many do not understand, it makes no real difference if you have 1 or 4 subs, if you have to turn the sub (s) down because it is boomy or rattles with trying to go low, that makes you overhear high efficiency speakers. And 40hz may be fine for casual occasional musical sub, but not for HT.

Your RF62 IIs go down to 35hz (more likely only 40)--as low or lower than your sub! So, with fronts that only go down to 40Hz (which you only get now down to 60hz out of because of your crossover setting) and a sub that goes down to only 40 hz, and is so boomy you have to turn it down -4db because of the sub's limits, YOU JUST ARE NOT GETTING ANY MEANINGFUL BASS, and are throwing what little bass you have in your fronts to a turned down sub, and are therefor "overhearing" the highs.

Any chance you can borrow a friends high end sub before you go change out speakers for good? If you could borrow a great sub, set the crossover on all speakers to 80, and get your RF 62s away from any wall at least 12", I bet you would love your speakers.

You have an underpowered, not able to go as lows as your fronts, boomy sub you can't even set to +-0db.

Since you have to turn the sub down below flat and your RF62s technically can go lower than your 40hz sub . . .

You might like the sound better deleting the sub for now and pushing lows to the RF62s until you can get a more powerful and go lower sub.

Your problem is not the speakers, it is your lack of real bass (low hz and low volume) in the sub after crossover to get no bass out of the RF62s, making it impossible not to overhear your highs.

Without changing to a sub more powerful (so it is never boomy at reference level) and a sub that drops at least to the 24hz range, and while crossing out waht little bass there is in your fronts with the 60hz crossover setting, you are not going to get a different result no matter what speaker you buy with like specs.

How do you like the RF 62s running only two channel music (not 2.1)? I bet it will be a lot better than HT. but even for two channel, a low sub is a must if you want any thump.

Delete your sub, get those fronts out of the corner and away from the wall . . . Then borrow a high end sub. I will wager you will love your Klipsch then!

Or, just,sell them and forget it. Just make sure you don't get any more top tier speakers to run with a cheap, low end sub. You will get the same problem.
Edited by Rhetor - 8/27/12 at 8:40pm

Next is trading up to a Jamo C80 system (if your dealer does that).

It could have to do with the room shape and size as in you have a boatload of standing waves reinforcing each other.

See this calculator.

The typical human voice has a range of 85-255Hz.

If you plug in the dimensions of the room you posted, you'll see that you have a boatload of standing waves in the room, at exactly these frequencies.

Here's a bit on standing waves and how they affect your room acoustics.

For all I know, you could have a bad tweeter.



-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 5:07am

What he said . . . Will your dealer come over and take a listen?

I still go back to my original comments and don't think it's your sub (although you could benifit with a better one). It's too bad that you can't find a place where you could listen to this system with a better AVR to see if the speakers have the characteristics that you don't like...Fwiw, female voices on lower end horn loaded speakers are where people report problems as well as sometimes it's in the nature of the recording.

Fwiw, he said he didn't audition this system so my guess is he purchased online.

I'm always amazed at how people will assume that the problem is the speaker, and cling to that assumption. Not entirely your fault as there is a lot of misinformation being repeated in this forum - but stop and think, which of these is more likely?

(a) The speaker designer created a seriously imbalanced speaker, with profound design flaws, or

(b) Your room and layout have serious issues

And by the way, (b) is clearly true from your description.

As a temporary experiment, try pulling all the speakers a few feet or so from the walls, place them how they are supposed to be placed (see link here), and put a chair in the proper listening position. That's a better test of what the speakers really sound like, and reduces some of the room effects.

No speakers will do well unless you deal with the placement and surfaces.

Then edit the entry and cite your source as the article stated what you state above. FWIW, this is what was stated in the article you commented on:

"In telephony, the usable voice frequency band ranges from approximately 300 Hz to 3400 Hz."

I cited my source material, which agrees with your comment, yet you totally ignored my point which was, you, the individual has a room that is in conflict with the range the majority of voice range is reproduced and that point was made abundantly clear in my comments. It's like all you guys want to do is argue, argue, argue........nothing as opposed to giving positive input.

I'm trying to help you. I'm not trying to get in an argument of nuances.

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/29/12 at 7:03am