or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Home Theater Gaming › PlayStation Area › PS4 to Support 4K Resolution
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

PS4 to Support 4K Resolution - Page 6

post #151 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

Sony has stolen "Apple's Cheese". No need for Apple to ever enter the fray now.
I don't understand what this has to do with Apple.
post #152 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

Sweet Jesus on a Pogo Stick! Great post and link Mikazaru! Sony has stolen "Apple's Cheese". No need for Apple to ever enter the fray now. Because Sony has moved decisively upmarket with this gem, Blu-Ray and their Next Playstation. I sure wish I could afford that entire setup right now. But with PS4 you are likely looking at a $50,000 initial pocket pull. But just like Full HD...the price will eventually plunge on 4K x 2k displays.
I am definitely going to be an early PS4 adopter. Because I am awed and excited with Sony's approach to it. I'll just have to get my realism from a smaller 32" Sony 4k x 2k monitor initially.

What exactly are you trying to say? This announcement about 4k for the PS3 or the showing of this tv does not effect anyone today or in the future. Current TVs for Sony are not affecting other companies today. 4K bragging is basically 1080p bragging all over again with little substance beyond native res and movies. Consumers are more concern with cosmetic design like thin bezel and features than resolution. To me this goes against the whole thing that is causing Sony issues. First it was the push with 3d and now 4K. They had to cut their current 2012 TVs down because they are not selling. Making claims that MS, Apple or Nintendo need to be concerned about a $25,000 display being announced with 4K. Everyone plans to do 4K. It won't change Sony's situation in their tv business unless they fix the other issues.
post #153 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

I don't understand what this has to do with Apple.

Apple has been widely reported to soon enter the HDTV fray with a super upscale OLED 4k x 2k model...in 50"-60" size range...linked to their tablets and ecosystem. I guess in the bigger scheme of things, Sony's decision doesn't affect Apple at all. Apple will continue to do its thing. I just see this as Sony saying...I'm going to do your thing too Apple. And better than you because you're entering my playground now. A successful PS4...with 4k x2k....along with Sony's cinema strengths & muscle...substantial Blu-Ray advantages...Cyrstal LED SRT tech...Display legacy...Playstation legacy...creates a formidable wedge between Apple intention. I just think Sony is really headed down the right path for serious gamers (ultra high end) with their console and display strategy. All of the benefits with work their way to the middle and bottom. I should be able to bridge with MS' next generation ecosystem through my PC. I'll wait longer to see how their "Blending" strategy plays out. Not so with Apple and Sony. They both seem to be in a similar mindset. But with 2 different end games in mind. Apple is into High end technology with low cost...quick churn games. Sony's PS4 is also about ultra high end technology...but with elaborate high end game franchises. And I like their game and cinema approach better. Apple has yet to fully define it's "Cheese". And my supposition was...Sony may have stolen it!

http://news.consumerreports.org/electronics/2012/01/ces-2012-sony-shows-crystal-led-display-technology.html
post #154 of 280
@ mboojigga:

Aye...yi...yi! I had written a decent response to you before the AVS website got zapped for some reason on my PC. I'll try to reconstruct it.

"Making claims that MS, Apple or Nintendo need to be concerned about a $25,000 display being announced with 4K. Everyone plans to do 4K. It won't change Sony's situation in their tv business unless they fix the other issues."

Not what I am saying. But part of it is true for some but not for all. What Sony has is a Strategy and Message (Cheese) that can unify all of their Brand Assets like never before. 4K x 2K is the strategic enabler that can unify PS4...Their display & projector business...consumer camera business...professional film & photography business...3D, SRT, Crystal LED technology development...cinema studio business...game studio business...Blu-Ray business. While it is true that all of this could have been unified under 1080p...Sony clearly lost the early 1080p messaging campaign around it to the mass market producers. This time around...the mass market will be playing catchup to the higher end 4k driven assets. The Sony's and Apples of the world. That is how I see Sony marketing its message (cheese) around 4k x 2k. this could be a big part of their "Fix" because Samsung and others don't have Sony's diverse array of assets to blow up 4k x 2k to a skeptical yet receptive marketplace. High end establishes brand cache (cheese). Low end establishes core value and "cheap". Sony wasn't selling because it had clearly lost its "Cheese" in the marketplace. And there are a ton of reasons to explain why. But Samsung and others don't have the bundle of assets to exploit 4k like Sony does. And that is why I am thrilled to see them capture the high ground with it.

While only higher end market will enjoy the potential of 4k x 2k initially. That high price tag will winnow its way down eventually. And if Sony has effectively linked its unified Brand identity to it. It could be a big capture for them. Its lower end product offerings should enjoy robust success because of it. I for one will definitely give the PS4 an early buy. And couple it with a Sony Crystal LED 4k 32-40 inch PC/HDTV Monitor display for an ultimate gaming system/viewing experience at a reasonable early adoption price. I will wait on the MS Durango to see how it "Blends" into their Windows 8 ecosystem before buying. But I'm certain it will have 4k too.

Bottom line is this. 4K x 2k will be successful because high end users want it. Heck...they're already using it to some extent! Those same high end users wanted 1080p. And at one time 480p. The mass market is the big dog. But the High end is the tail that wags it. Sony just needs to market in a way that the mass market knows it is the brand that means "everything 4k". And PS4 is a right step in that direction.
post #155 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

Apple has been widely reported to soon enter the HDTV fray with a super upscale OLED 4k x 2k model...in 50"-60" size range...linked to their tablets and ecosystem.
This has been in the rumor mill for a long time. Not saying it won't happen, but most rumors indicated this was due out mid-2012. Didn't happen. It's possible that the current legal squabble with Samsung is holding this up. Or it's possible that they've decided against it since it would be such an expensive risk--even for a cash-loaded behemoth like Apple. Who knows? But I don't think Sony's plans will have much of an effect either way.
post #156 of 280
For what it is worth, here is a somewhat informative read on, "4K for the PS4? Who cares?"eek.gif

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57502241-221/4k-for-the-ps4-who-cares/?tag=nl.e404


If you can get past the personal opinion and look at the facts, he raises some interesting points; many of which have been discussed in this thread. Remember, take it with a grain of salt.....biggrin.gif
post #157 of 280
^^^ What a joke of an article. The main reason for 4K in the PS4 won't simply be the resolution increase, especially since everyone agrees it will make no difference to 99% of the consumers over 1080P.

The author fails to mention 4K benefits that's been floating around for over a year which the PS4 can make use of for little to no extra cost:

- Zoom in on textures without them getting blurry
- 1080P in 3D

It's really that simple. Writing a full article as if the plan is to try to produce a ton of 4K resolution games is ignorant. The actual perks that will come around aren't showstoppers, but with hardly any impact on the cost of the machine by supporting it, the pros out weigh the cons.
post #158 of 280
Your 85 inch shall be sharp and vivid not dull and lifeless because of too big stretched and opened pixels
post #159 of 280
^^^ Yup, as long as you have tens of thousands of $$$ laying around to buy one. Here's Sony's top tier (2160P) 4K display And here's Panasonic's more top-tierer (4320P) 8K display.
post #160 of 280
Plus the other question is who buys a $7,000 4K 80" when they can buy a 80" 1080P for $1500?

Again, this is simply a justification to keep margins on TV's higher.

The big manufactures made big mistakes outsourcing production to cheaper Chinese facilities. They save a few cents, but they also made the mega production facilities that other bargain bin LCD makers now use too, and drove down prices way too fast. Oops.
post #161 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

- Zoom in on textures without them getting blurry

Texture resolution is mainly a problem of hardware, not really resolution. They use smaller textures, which become blurry, because they cost less. Compare a game that uses high resolution textures (MGS4) vs one that does not (MW). I really don't think 4K is going to improve texture resolution use much in gaming, since it's going to be dependent on the render benchmarks they're going for.

Maybe outside of games, for photo's and movies you might want to zoom in on. Maybe I'm reading you wrong on this texture zoom?
post #162 of 280
I don't think it'll be used that often as well, but that's what has been brought up as a feature along with 1080P 3D. It certainly isn't being put in to make a bunch of full 4K games that people seem to be fussing about.
post #163 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

^^^ What a joke of an article. The main reason for 4K in the PS4 won't simply be the resolution increase, especially since everyone agrees it will make no difference to 99% of the consumers over 1080P.
The author fails to mention 4K benefits that's been floating around for over a year which the PS4 can make use of for little to no extra cost:
- Zoom in on textures without them getting blurry
- 1080P in 3D
It's really that simple. Writing a full article as if the plan is to try to produce a ton of 4K resolution games is ignorant. The actual perks that will come around aren't showstoppers, but with hardly any impact on the cost of the machine by supporting it, the pros out weigh the cons.


I get his points, but they seem more like whining or envy. Have to love it, when someone who writes about tech for a living, or anyone who is a tech junkie that says better tech is not better or advantageous, when we all know it is and we want it. He is making the claims for one of two reasons. Ignorance, which he seems knowledgeable, so that seems unlikely, or he is envious and resentful for what ever reason against Sony, PS3, etc.
post #164 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I get his points, but they seem more like whining or envy. Have to love it, when someone who writes about tech for a living, or anyone who is a tech junkie that says better tech is not better or advantageous, when we all know it is and we want it. He is making the claims for one of two reasons. Ignorance, which he seems knowledgeable, so that seems unlikely, or he is envious and resentful for what ever reason against Sony, PS3, etc.
Actually, it's 4K that he hates. Everything below 1 arcminute for spacing between pixels is a waste and so on... Old story, really.
post #165 of 280
Screen resolution and texture resolution are two entirely different things. There's almost no relation at all. Higher screen resolution will resolve textures at a distance more clearly, regardless of texture res. Or 4K will allow the use of higher texture resolutions for objects close to the camera....but the games need to be rendered out in full 4K, and the hardware isn't going to be able to handle that at a reasonable frame rate.

And the only bearing 4K has on 1080p 3D is you could then have a passive display that doesn't need to cut the resolution in half. But in reality you don't need 4K (quad HD) for that, you just need 1920x2160. And that's just passive. Full 1080p 3D has been here for years at 24fps with active glasses, and all we really need is an HDMI spec bump to do it at 60fps.
post #166 of 280
Being able to output 1080P 3D games at up to 60 fps is definitely a perk over what is possible now. Unlike movies, a mere 24 fps is not enough.

With that said, while benefits from 4K support may be niche, at least it is a cheap upgrade that will have no significant impact on the console's cost, so there is nothing to get worked up over.
post #167 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

Being able to output 1080P 3D games at up to 60 fps is definitely a perk over what is possible now. Unlike movies, a mere 24 fps is not enough.

With that said, while benefits from 4K support may be niche, at least it is a cheap upgrade that will have no significant impact on the console's cost, so there is nothing to get worked up over.

But just like 4K, 1080p/3D/60 is also unrealistic...for anything but last gen remakes. Taking a current gen 720p/2D/30 game up to that will require 8x the fillrate - and that's the outer limit of what most people expect from the spec bump. That leaves nothing to make a game that actually looks next gen....so just like 4K, it's just another bullet point on the box that's irrelevant for games.

Unless they have a dual GPU "pro" version, the PS4 is going to be 1080p/2D or 720p/3D in games.
post #168 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeblow View Post

^^^ What a joke of an article. The main reason for 4K in the PS4 won't simply be the resolution increase, especially since everyone agrees it will make no difference to 99% of the consumers over 1080P.
The author fails to mention 4K benefits that's been floating around for over a year which the PS4 can make use of for little to no extra cost:
- Zoom in on textures without them getting blurry
- 1080P in 3D
It's really that simple. Writing a full article as if the plan is to try to produce a ton of 4K resolution games is ignorant. The actual perks that will come around aren't showstoppers, but with hardly any impact on the cost of the machine by supporting it, the pros out weigh the cons.

Exactly right! Many are lost in the forest and can't see the trees wit 4k x 2k. Like that writer, they are debating technical and physiological restraints and limitations without even seeing a demonstration of the technology. The real excitement for me is about what it will do for 1080p...as you described in part. It will make full 1080p rendering seamless...easy and superior in every way. whther zoomed in close or panned out wide...3D or 2D. And 480p-1080p content that is upscaled and SRT treated should look far superior to native treatments if the algorythms are done properly in the devices. High end users will quickly adopt, recognize and appreciate the pluses. There really are no negatives for 4k except that it isn't 8k or 16k. But that is another tale for another generation of users. And to your last point...I believe it will also enable full 1080p games to be much better. Because while most AAA next gen games will be 1080p/60, 50 or 30...The great ones will most surely bump up the resolution on the animated and real time cut scenes to 4K. So as to impart the highest level of realism on game segments that can most benefit from 4K treatment. It just gives developers a powerful new tool to use and perfect. I simply don't get why some people like that writer is so anti 4k. I don't even understand his comment that 4K benefits will go un noticed. While history on all past resolution changes refute that assumption. It's how the innovators and creatives use 4k x 2k over time that will make it noticeable and widely accepted. And I guarantee you 1000% they will master it. In fact they are way ahead of the curve on photography, cinema (still, animated & live) and movie making. That is Sony's sweet spot anyway. So it is natural and smart for them to align their product strategies with that technology. Sony sees it as a big multi brand advantage. Not just marketing hype as some have suggested.

My bottom line is ...if 4k x 2k is not ones cup of tea...Just choose 1080p devices...and stay with PS3, XBox 360, cell phones and WiiU for games, if that floats your boat. Next generation gaming will mean little to anyone, if people can't see the differences anyway. I, for one don't believe that assumption. I think 4k games...upscaled with/without SRT treatment...or native...in full game format or cutscene formatted...will be a very big deal in Next Generation consoles like PS4. I will embrace 4k x 2k and do what I have done with all high end devices & technology my entire life. Train myself to notice it...or trick myself into believing it.
post #169 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by boidsonly View Post

For what it is worth, here is a somewhat informative read on, "4K for the PS4? Who cares?"eek.gif
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57502241-221/4k-for-the-ps4-who-cares/?tag=nl.e404
If you can get past the personal opinion and look at the facts, he raises some interesting points; many of which have been discussed in this thread. Remember, take it with a grain of salt.....biggrin.gif

Interesting article written 7 days ago... kind of reminds me of a previous post on this thread from 2 weeks ago smile.gif

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1425827/ps4-to-support-4k-resolution/30#post_22333203
post #170 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

Exactly right! Many are lost in the forest and can't see the trees wit 4k x 2k. Like that writer, they are debating technical and physiological restraints and limitations without even seeing a demonstration of the technology. The real excitement for me is about what it will do for 1080p...as you described in part. It will make full 1080p rendering seamless...easy and superior in every way. whther zoomed in close or panned out wide...3D or 2D. And 480p-1080p content that is upscaled and SRT treated should look far superior to native treatments if the algorythms are done properly in the devices. High end users will quickly adopt, recognize and appreciate the pluses. There really are no negatives for 4k except that it isn't 8k or 16k. But that is another tale for another generation of users. And to your last point...I believe it will also enable full 1080p games to be much better. Because while most AAA next gen games will be 1080p/60, 50 or 30...The great ones will most surely bump up the resolution on the animated and real time cut scenes to 4K. So as to impart the highest level of realism on game segments that can most benefit from 4K treatment. It just gives developers a powerful new tool to use and perfect. I simply don't get why some people like that writer is so anti 4k. I don't even understand his comment that 4K benefits will go un noticed. While history on all past resolution changes refute that assumption. It's how the innovators and creatives use 4k x 2k over time that will make it noticeable and widely accepted. And I guarantee you 1000% they will master it. In fact they are way ahead of the curve on photography, cinema (still, animated & live) and movie making. That is Sony's sweet spot anyway. So it is natural and smart for them to align their product strategies with that technology. Sony sees it as a big multi brand advantage. Not just marketing hype as some have suggested.
My bottom line is ...if 4k x 2k is not ones cup of tea...Just choose 1080p devices...and stay with PS3, XBox 360, cell phones and WiiU for games, if that floats your boat. Next generation gaming will mean little to anyone, if people can't see the differences anyway. I, for one don't believe that assumption. I think 4k games...upscaled with/without SRT treatment...or native...in full game format or cutscene formatted...will be a very big deal in Next Generation consoles like PS4. I will embrace 4k x 2k and do what I have done with all high end devices & technology my entire life. Train myself to notice it...or trick myself into believing it.

Clearly, you don't "get it".
post #171 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorboi352 View Post

Clearly, you don't "get it".

Depends on what your definition of "It" is genius. Enlighten me. And indulge us with your sparkling vision.
post #172 of 280
it is the finite ability of the human eye to resolve visual information. It is really that simple. That's not saying you can't fool yourself by buying into tech spec and buzz terms; or that that doesn't give people a good amount of positive utility and warm feelings People do so every day.

But at the end of the day, 4K isn't going to make much sense until peoples habits change drastically (buy huge 80"+ screens), and costs come way, way, way down. There's simply going to be no benefits for the average consumer in the foreseeable future, outside commercial uses (sports venue screens, sports bars, theaters, ect)
post #173 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

it is the finite ability of the human eye to resolve visual information. It is really that simple. That's not saying you can't fool yourself by buying into tech spec and buzz terms; or that that doesn't give people a good amount of positive utility and warm feelings People do so every day.
But at the end of the day, 4K isn't going to make much sense until peoples habits change drastically (buy huge 80"+ screens), and costs come way, way, way down. There's simply going to be no benefits for the average consumer in the foreseeable future, outside commercial uses (sports venue screens, sports bars, theaters, ect)
Well, we can't talk about "finite ability of the human eye to resolve visual information" without mentioning what that limit is or at least in what range that limit lies.
NHK study/studies showed us that, for people with pretty good eyesight, that limit kicks in when pixel-to-pixel spacing is ~0.3 arcminutes (~200 pixels per degree) [of viewer's field of view], or less, ofcourse.

So, how small 2160p ("4K") set has to be to meet that limit (for those with great eyesight) from usual viewing distance of 9 feet?
42 inches or anything smaller than that will meet that limit for them.

But we're talking about those with great eyesight. For those with average eyesight, that limit should kick in when pixel-to-pixel spacing is ~0.545 arcminutes (~110 pixels per degree) [of viewer's field of view].

So, how small 2160p ("4K") set has to be to meet that limit for those with average eyesight, from usual viewing distance of 9 feet?
82 inches or anything smaller than that will meet that limit for them.
post #174 of 280
Whether or not or at what distance people can see a difference or not is kind of besides the point. 1080p is well past the point of diminishing returns for most people in most situations, and from an overall image quality standpoint, there are bigger fish to fry. Frame rate, contrast ratio, 3d, pixel aliasing, lip/av sync, color gamut - these issues have more impact and should have more precedence. 4k is just an easy sell.
post #175 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Frame rate, contrast ratio, 3d, pixel aliasing, lip/av sync, color gamut - these issues have more impact and should have more precedence. 4k is just an easy sell.
Not at current prices, it's not. Seems like those other solutions would be much cheaper. But they're iterative improvements rather than paradigm shifts. That's the big problem from a corporate perspective. They want to sell a "revolution" rather than a "revision." I'm just not sure that mainstream consumers are ready for another display revolution anytime soon. And without support from mainstream consumers, the content just won't come. Not to mention that we're still faced with fundamentally limiting factors in communications infrastructure (bandwidth and speed).

But I still stick by my claim that the big mainstream selling point for the HD shift was the size and shape of displays, not the resolution. Without something comparable, it will all seem pretty much more of the same to most consumers. As for me, I'd be satisfied with some basic iterative changes like you say. We've reached a point of diminishing returns on resolution, unless the underlying technology itself changes.
post #176 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Whether or not or at what distance people can see a difference or not is kind of besides the point.
I don't think it is.
post #177 of 280
I remember when everyone said 720P was good enough... and since all broadcasters (at that time) were broadcasting 720p only...

1080p or even 1080i was not needed.
post #178 of 280
"1080p is well past the point of diminishing returns for most people in most situations"

"We've reached a point of diminishing returns on resolution, unless the underlying technology itself changes."

Correct and correct.
post #179 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by defdog99 View Post

I remember when everyone said 720P was good enough... and since all broadcasters (at that time) were broadcasting 720p only...
1080p or even 1080i was not needed.

All broadcasts still only top out at 1080i.

That's what cracks me up, we aren't even at a point where native 1080p cable and satellite is obtainable! Some form of Cable/Satellite/Antenna has to be at least 50% of most everyones TV consumption in a given day, and we aren't even watching Full 1080p in that regard!

I swear, the people clamoring for 4K are the type that want it just so they can show it off at their next Super Bowl watch party during the half time show. "Hey man, it's half time let's check out this 4K resolution I just bought! Let me put in this single Uber Bluray 2.0 being that it's the only piece of material that supports 4K at the moment and BLOW YOUR MIND AWAY!"

Let me know when my cable, PS5 and every BluRay supports 4K resolutions and I will purchase a nice 55" set when it costs under 2 grand.
post #180 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorboi352 View Post

Let me know when my cable, PS5 and every BluRay supports 4K resolutions and I will purchase a nice 55" set when it costs under 2 grand.
Until then, feel free to spit on everything related to 4K like a true gentlemen would.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: PlayStation Area
AVS › AVS Forum › Gaming & Content Streaming › Home Theater Gaming › PlayStation Area › PS4 to Support 4K Resolution