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Any input on this - NEW HTPC - Page 5

post #121 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

You have to replace the controller with the exact same controller if the controller fails to get your array back, correct?
You have to replace with a controller that is compatible. Not necessarily the same exact controller.
You're gambling that another controller will work with your existing array? Well that's pretty high risk. Have you ever actually tried that? I don't think I've ever seen someone succesfully restore a RAID failure using a different controller. I think the accepted wisdom is that you need the same make/model/revision/drivers as the original. And even then sometimes it won't work.

Yes, I have. I replace a different model controller and data in the RAID0 array was still intact.
post #122 of 216
Thread Starter 
Well now, hasn't this thread taken off...........And all I did was ask about RAID functionality (software vs hardware) in a HTPC.
You guys are making my head spin with all the information.........can't keep up........

FlexRaid is lookin' might good right now.

Toys
post #123 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acesfullup View Post

+1
Applying enterprise concepts of storage technologies to consumer-grade MB's, RAID controllers, file systems, and hard drives is hilarious.
In actuality, Google's warehouse scale computer is based on consumer grade hardware. Their solution is placing 3 copies of the data in different places, 2 copies in the same data center but in different servers and 1 copy in a different data center. They don't care about data integrity because having data is better than no data. Facebook mirrors this concept.

This concept is radically different from corporate data centers but data we store in our home system is similar to what we store on Google and Facebook, video clips, photo, music etc. These are now called "unstructured data".

What we store in banks, and other form based data needs high data integrity. These are now called "structured data". Largest user is probably Amazon.com. We have some of these at home but size is very small. HW wise they are very expensive, SAS Fiber channel etc.
Edited by dksc318 - 8/30/12 at 10:26pm
post #124 of 216
It took off largely because the powers that be at AVS decided to put your thread under their "Featured Content" on the main AVS homepage.
post #125 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

That's my whole point that got lost in the troll posts.....
Accusing someone on "reliability" is a serious thing. What if someone bought one ot your products and claim it has "poor reliability?". I don't work for Highpoint but was responsible for my company's quality and reliability a few years back. Only you think this is a troll just because you don't know who the other party is. You can see lot of people responded with HW RAID experiences after our exchanges.
post #126 of 216
Yes, $50 "fake raid" cards are largely viewed by those building multi thousand dollar raid arrays as being inferior. I am sorry you fail to see this.

My point is neither are even needed for a htpc server which makes your whole discussion even more ridiculous than it already was.
post #127 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

I've read this post a few times now. What's the misinformation about hardware RAID it clears up?

That the assertion "poor reliability" for Highpoint's RocketRAID is unfound. That the many features in FlexRAID are not available in HW RAID is unfound.
post #128 of 216
The one advantage of WIndows 8 may be Storage Space...

Certainly it is the only reason I am considering an upgrade.
post #129 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Yes, $50 "fake raid" cards are largely viewed by those building multi thousand dollar raid arrays as being inferior. I am sorry you fail to see this.
My point is neither are even needed for a htpc server which makes your whole discussion even more ridiculous than it already was.

Again, this is your view. The only reason the 8port RocketRAID XOR card cost $50 here in San Jose is because they been retired from data centers. And they are no "fake". If they have "poor reliability", these circa 2005 cards would have been removed in 2006. Now they are running in my poor man's server. Current models probably cost $400-$800. You don't have to be in San Jose to get these. The data center recycling companies use eBay extensively. The cheapest SATA cards (non-RAID) Highpoint makes are those OEM'ed to WD in some bare drive kits. If Highpoint has "poor quality" they would not be in WD kits.

Most of us treat our home system as one system. We don't run a HTPC system and a home data system separately per se. There is always a need for a small RAID to store those data we hold dearly. I suspect OP asked this question in this vein. I have a 1.5TB RAID1 and a 240GB RAID0 but my content JBOD is 7.5TB.
post #130 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksc318 View Post

That the assertion "poor reliability" for Highpoint's RocketRAID is unfound. That the many features in FlexRAID are not available in HW RAID is unfound.

Wow, you're just making stuff up now.
post #131 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksc318 View Post

There is always a need for a small RAID to store those data we hold dearly.

1. No there isn't.
2. If you hold your data dearly, you would back it up.


Hey Toys, I was really intrigued by your original thread topic. Maybe you can start a new thread once you get your project rolling.
Edited by BllDo - 8/31/12 at 8:21am
post #132 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

1. No there isn't.
2. If you hold your data dearly, you would back it up.

I had a NAS (Maxtor) that crashed due to a failed fan. Nearly lost all my photographs. The backup was 2 or 3 days old so I could build everything back from the backup. After this event, I got my first RAID array, a RAID1. Even that has a backup. I think almost everyone had similar experiences.

Whether RAID is needed or not for their data is in the eyes of the beholder.
Edited by dksc318 - 8/30/12 at 10:23pm
post #133 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksc318 View Post

In actuality, Google's warehouse scale computer is based on consumer grade hardware.

True - redundancy, bandwidth, specialized file systems, and geographic diversity can overcome many things. A majority of HTPC storage solutions lack all of these.

I'm a storage manager at a university and we have attempted to skin this cat many ways. Right now we are pretty happy with server hardware running a robust file system (ZFS) for the general prison population data. I too wish we had more geographic diversity and redundancy rather than more expensive hardware.

Now that this thread is completely off the rails, I present a video about recovering RAID arrays using porn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ehHOme40LE
post #134 of 216
Wow very long raid discussion here smile.gif

I'm really curious to see what Toys7505 take on the HTPC is, more so on the quality side of things.

Has the XBMC vs Mediabrowser debate come up yet?

Also I am curious to see if MPC+Lav+MadVR will be something worth while for him to test. I know some people question why MadVR is considered better when a lot of people see little difference (Assassin tongue.gif). I think it would be interesting from a new comer to HTPC's and a videophile to weight in on MadVR.
post #135 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

Also I am curious to see if MPC+Lav+MadVR will be something worth while for him to test. I know some people question why MadVR is considered better when a lot of people see little difference (Assassin tongue.gif). I think it would be interesting from a new comer to HTPC's and a videophile to weight in on MadVR.

I am not the only one. I just am the most vocal I guess. Even Nev (developer of LAV) agrees that it only gives you a very modest improvement for 1080p/720p. I receive a few PMs a month with AVS users experiencing a similar assessment. I guess not everyone wants to discuss it publicly though. Still haven't seen a screenshot that shows a difference for 1080p but that's another story for a different thread. For interlaced material (of which I have <1%) it can make a difference.
post #136 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I am not the only one. I just am the most vocal I guess. Even Nev (developer of LAV) agrees that it only gives you a very modest improvement for 1080p/720p. I receive a few PMs a month with AVS users experiencing a similar assessment. I guess not everyone wants to discuss it publicly though. Still haven't seen a screenshot that shows a difference for 1080p but that's another story for a different thread. For interlaced material (of which I have <1%) it can make a difference.

Oh I know, that's why I called you out smile.gif. Just thought it was a good opportunity here for a new comer who is probably totally unbiased to assess it. Especially a videophile.
post #137 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Well except that it only costs about $50 (or zero depending on what you want to use) plus the cost of 1 parity drive for most people to use a software raid server. That's much more feasible and the performance is plenty good for the HTPC platform.

You may have missed the part where I mentioned that I use Flexraid for my drive pooling. wink.gif
post #138 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnix View Post

You may have missed the part where I mentioned that I use Flexraid for my drive pooling. wink.gif

Gotcha. I did indeed.
post #139 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Wow, you're just making stuff up now.

You could have left off the "now". It's been constant throughout this thread.

Is there an "ignore poster" function in this new board software, because I know who my first candidate would be.
post #140 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Don't try to make it sound like this is easy or foolproof or that you can just slap any new controller in there and it will work like a charm. If you did this for a living, you know better than that.
All the companies that you named sell very expensive enterprise servers and as part of their product support go out of their way to make sure that replacement parts are available. So when you spend $20,000 on a Poweredge server and spend thousands more on an annual service contract, they may be expected to replace a faulty controller.
How do you think that's going to work with some $150 RAID card someone bought at Newegg to slap in an old Core2Duo machine for their basement video server? Hardly equivalent, is it?

I don't think you are reading my posts thoroughly enough. I am simply dissipating some of the non-factual elements of hardware RAID. I have seen everything from a $700 computer with mirrored 3TB drives to $8K worth of server with 16TB of storage on the back end and a small SSD based computer on the front end. I don't want to make any assumptions about what people are going to do here. AVS'ers come from every budget category. Disinformation does not suit this forum nor this thread.

I did this for a living and I simply know what the options are from small to large budgets. Sorry if that rankles you rolleyes.gif
post #141 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

How do you think that's going to work with some $150 RAID card someone bought at Newegg to slap in an old Core2Duo machine for their basement video server? Hardly equivalent, is it?

Use software RAID in that scenario. Where is the confusion coming from on your part? Did I post somewhere were I am championing hardware RAID? confused.gif
post #142 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

You could have left off the "now". It's been constant throughout this thread.
Is there an "ignore poster" function in this new board software, because I know who my first candidate would be.

What do you know, there is a "Block Member." Let's see what happens.
post #143 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

I don't think you are reading my posts thoroughly enough. I am simply dissipating some of the non-factual elements of hardware RAID. I have seen everything from a $700 computer with mirrored 3TB drives to $8K worth of server with 16TB of storage on the back end and a small SSD based computer on the front end. I don't want to make any assumptions about what people are going to do here. AVS'ers come from every budget category. Disinformation does not suit this forum nor this thread.
I did this for a living and I simply know what the options are from small to large budgets. Sorry if that rankles you rolleyes.gif

It doesn't rankle me at all. This all goes back to your post that "You have to replace with a controller that is compatible. Not necessarily the same exact controller."

I think that was way oversimplified, and could easily lead people to believe that if they go buy a RAID controller on ebay and in a year it fails that they just have to buy a "compatible" controller (whatever that means) and they'll be just fine. I expect that's not what you meant. And while IBM and Dell and HP may make backwards "compatible" replacement controllers for their servers, the likelihood of someone with a consumer RAID controller being able to save their array with anything other than the same make/model/revision/driver controller is slim and none. And it may not work even if they have a duplicate controller.

I think that people considering a DIY RAID for home need to consider the risks of a total loss of data from a controller failure among other considerations. And I don't think this thread is really directed at people considering putting an IBM System X in their home, for whatever reason.
post #144 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

It doesn't rankle me at all. This all goes back to your post that "You have to replace with a controller that is compatible. Not necessarily the same exact controller."
I think that was way oversimplified, and could easily lead people to believe that if they go buy a RAID controller on ebay and in a year it fails that they just have to buy a "compatible" controller (whatever that means) and they'll be just fine. I expect that's not what you meant.

If I intended to mean anything by it I would have said so. Bottom line is some of the information floating around in this thread about hardware RAID has been erroneous. PERIOD. The people that are going to start looking at hotswap, cached controllers etc... will hopefully do everything that anyone else at AVS or like forums come here to do: Perform their DUE DILIGENCE. The difference is I'm not in this thread with any particular price point for the enthusiast. All points can, and should, be covered. It's what forums exist for.

Suffice it to say I have went from one Sil based firmware RAID card to another from a different manufacturer and ported everything over. It's not out of the realm of possibility and speaking for myself a pretty trivial task.
post #145 of 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by drparker151 View Post

My question for the group. If you don't need performance, you don't need high availability, don't want to spend the money and you have good backups why bother with RAID of any kind.

This was and always is the question I always ask. I think some people just have in mind that if you have a server that means you have to have RAID and/or that RAID is some kind of magical thing that makes everything safe.

I can see something like FlexRAID for larger (what larger is the choice of the hobbyist) collections. It depends on what you want to spend time-wise, money-wise, etc.

But, you don't HAVE to have RAID to have a media server and a lot of the things RAID can do (as you point out) don't make a whole lot of sense to me for HTPC/hobbyists. To each their own though. This is a hobby after all and some people like to fool around with that stuff anyway. It's just important to impress upon the general population that's RAID is not required and that you have to read between the lines to make sure it's doing what you think, especially if the goal is to protect your data -- not just from hardware failure -- but from little hands who can find the delete button or big hands that stay up too late and hit the wrong key smile.gif.
post #146 of 216
I had the same mindset about having a different rig for gaming and another for HTPC use. I had that setup for several years. I found it was easier to just have it all in one as my GTX 680 decodes DTS MA and DD HD through the HDMI 1.4 on the video card itself which is very beneficial if you are running Blu Ray on your HTPC.





post #147 of 216
Oh, that's some purdy stuff right there.
post #148 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post


Hey Toys, I was really intrigued by your original thread topic. Maybe you can start a new thread once you get your project rolling.

Yes, I most certainly plan on sharing a build thread once the "trigger" has been pulled and I plow through ALL the infomation and make up my mind as to a back up solution. I like the idea of having a "true" backup as I have over 400 DVD's and over 100 Bluray's to rip. Currently trying to figure out how many drives to start with. I have researched and found that a DVD rip can be anywhere from 5-8 gigs of info. where as a BluRay can average 30-35 gigs. And now I am thinking of having just a 1tb drive for my DVR. SO off the top, looks like my HTPC would start out with 2 - 2tb drives for my movies and a 1tb drive for DVR.

Now some questions for the members ragarding RAID:

If i wanted to go with a true backup system, I would need 4-2tb drives to make sure my movies are safe at least (don't want to waste my time again ripping movies) plus a RAID card?

What if I started out with no backup, ripped my media then added a RAID array? would that work?

If I used FlexRaid, I could add drives as I needed and would have some form of protection?

Toys
post #149 of 216
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

It took off largely because the powers that be at AVS decided to put your thread under their "Featured Content" on the main AVS homepage.

Ahhhhh, yes I checked the "Home" and it is still there - COOL smile.gif
post #150 of 216
Has great video playback performance along with XBMC. If I want to do some gaming, I can. DVR, you bet. Anything internet related, it's there. This is the centerpiece of my home theater.
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