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Progressive vs Interlaced; all Panels

post #1 of 18
8/27/12 at 9:44am
Thread Starter 
Oh minds above my pay grade:

In the "goodoldays" "i" meant interlaced--electrons drew odd lines 1,3,5,7,9 etc. then went back up top and drew the even lines 2,4,6,8, etc. Progressive is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 and so on. So. I can show Mr. Customer the obvious difference between 720p and 1080i by just switching resolutions on a DVD output menu and the 720p image is markedly sharper. But sometimes 50 years in this business makes me think I should know the answer to this:--another client of mine is convinced that in the "i" mode, the lines are still all drawn at the same time on modern panels. They just retain the old ones until they are replaced by new lines. But I think at 1080i one is still only "seeing" 540 lines at any one time. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Yours truly,

Mr. Klay Anderson, D.A.,Q.B.E.
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post #2 of 18
8/27/12 at 10:20am
AFAIK... if it's a fixed pixel display (non-CRT), it will only be displayed at it's "native" resolution.
So, if it's a 1080p panel, it's always presented at 1080p no matter the input resolution of the video signal (480i, 480p, 720p 1080i).
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post #3 of 18
8/27/12 at 4:32pm
On modern 1080p HDTV sets they always display in 1920x1080 progressive resolutions.
720p input signal will be upscaled to 1080p by the electronics..
1080i input signal will be de-interlaced to 1080p by the electronics.
On better deinterlacers, if the 1080i source is film based (24fps with pulldown) it is possible to extract the progressive 1080p@24fps frames.
If the 1080i source is video based (60 fields per sec) than higher end de-interlacers can do an excellent job of upscaling each 1920x540 field to a 1920x1080 frame reducing jaggies.
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post #4 of 18
8/28/12 at 10:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BriscoCountyJr View Post

720p input signal will be upscaled to 1080p by the electronics..
1080i input signal will be de-interlaced to 1080p by the electronics.

OK. Thank you. Now we're getting somewhere. Poor deinterlacing is probably why forced 720p looks better than 1080i. (?)
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post #5 of 18
8/28/12 at 11:49am
Then.... (to your assessment/assumption) why would 1080i downscaled to 720p look better when upscaled to a native 1080p display?
There are some caveats with any display and/or the source/displays. But, 720p is not "best option". in most cases.
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post #6 of 18
8/28/12 at 2:04pm
A related observation.

I have hooked up my dish reciever thru DVDO to TV.
As my Dish reciever cann't output "Native Resolution" like some Direct TV recievers, i have tried outputing from DISH in 480i, 480p, 720p & 1080I to DVDO (which will output at 1080P to TV)
Out of the 4, i get the best Picture Quality when I set the Dish to 720P (and not 1080i or lower).
I have read that DVDO or any good video processor does a better job than any TV or receiver. They recommend the lowest setting if native is not available.
We watch a lot of SD (International) channells which are broadcast at 480P. But setting to 480P lowers the PQ.
Why? Anyone with knowledge can explain this?

Thanks
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post #7 of 18
8/28/12 at 2:23pm
I guess you have to take into consideration the make/model of your TV and that most individuals don't use a DVDO nowadays. wink.gif
Have you tried to bypass the DVDO and attempt the same tests/observations?
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post #8 of 18
8/29/12 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I guess you have to take into consideration the make/model of your TV and that most individuals don't use a DVDO nowadays. wink.gif
Have you tried to bypass the DVDO and attempt the same tests/observations?

Without DVDO obviously 1080i setting is slightly better than 780P.

My question was more about the upconversion in DISH reciever vs DVDO. And DVDO does the best job when fed 720P and not 1080i or 480P in my case. I have tried the DVDO with my last year's SAMSUNG LED TV and this year's Toshibha and three years ago FULL LED Sharp TV. All 3 give same results. DVDO does the best when fed 720P from DISH reciever.
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post #9 of 18
8/29/12 at 2:50pm
If you prefer using the DVDO, that's your personal choice. No problem with that....

The majority of individuals don't own or don't want to invest today for a DVDO to "experiment". That was great years ago (especially for CRT's), things change.

Point being, without DVDO, 1080i was slightly better. There ya go. So, there are so many permutations to prove a point. But... it's not worth the discussion.


The bottom line is.... if the TV has a "native resolution" of 1080p, it upscales or deinterlaces the signal being fed to it anyway (unless the native feed is 1080p).
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post #10 of 18
8/31/12 at 8:13am
I can vouch for the DVDO iScan Duo for my Panny TC-P55GT50. It makes a world of difference. I have the DVDO settings to force 1080p output, with 4:4:4 color, and Deep Color at 36 bits. I have the CMS set to CIE 1931 to reduce oversaturated colors. Wow. Wonderful difference. Now I can look forward to watching any source without cringing at the picture.
I tried to recreate these settings on the TV alone, but failed.
With the DVDO, I don't even have to mess with the TV Pro settings on my TV anymore because everything looks great without needing to calibrate it. I have the Disney WoW, and the Munse and Sperling calibration bluray discs, but I haven't even had to open them. BTW, I also have a Dish satellite setup, with a maximum resolution of 1080i, or 720p.
For Blu-ray, I can set the other input to bypass these output settings because every input can have a different output setting. In a word, convenient.
Edited by Tazishere - 8/31/12 at 8:29am
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post #11 of 18
9/2/12 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

I can vouch for the DVDO iScan Duo for my Panny TC-P55GT50. It makes a world of difference. I have the DVDO settings to force 1080p output, with 4:4:4 color, and Deep Color at 36 bits. I have the CMS set to CIE 1931 to reduce oversaturated colors. Wow. Wonderful difference. Now I can look forward to watching any source without cringing at the picture.
I tried to recreate these settings on the TV alone, but failed.
With the DVDO, I don't even have to mess with the TV Pro settings on my TV anymore because everything looks great without needing to calibrate it. I have the Disney WoW, and the Munse and Sperling calibration bluray discs, but I haven't even had to open them. BTW, I also have a Dish satellite setup, with a maximum resolution of 1080i, or 720p.
For Blu-ray, I can set the other input to bypass these output settings because every input can have a different output setting. In a word, convenient.
So the Panasonic picture makes you cringe? I'd expect better from a nearly $2,000 set. Is this a problem inherent to the set, or is it just yours?
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post #12 of 18
9/6/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by olyteddy View Post

So the Panasonic picture makes you cringe? I'd expect better from a nearly $2,000 set. Is this a problem inherent to the set, or is it just yours?

I think it's Panasonic's fault. I now know that I need to scutinize the wild marketing claims that Panasonic makes inthe future. Dish TV may also be to blame for their compression algorithms
My HTPC puts out a 16/10 ratio, intead of a 16/9 video. Panasonic has no way to underscan it to fit my screen either. That is another reason I had to get a video processor.
I like my TV, don't get me wrong. I just needed to improve it to get the best picture. This TV is also improving with time. I've owned it for 4 weeks now, and the block distortion keeps getting to be less and less. I've also learned to use the AGC to improve shadow details. This is all through the Panasonic menu. Next, I will play with the black extension control. Then I'll try disconnecting the iScan Duo, and compare it.
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post #13 of 18
9/6/12 at 12:20pm
We have Dish at work (I sell tvs) on one set, store feed on all the others. I have DirecTV at home. The Dish HD picture is crap, imho, due to overcompression leading to posterizing ("clayface effect"). Our Dish box is set to 1080i output and I've seen it on several different sets over the last couple of years, both lcd/led and plasma. Currently it's running on a TC-P60ST50 which actually does a better job of disguising the crap signal than the Sharps and Samsungs that preceded it. I've also seen Dish HD signal in other stores and it's just as bad. DirecTV, which I have at home, is very significantly better.
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post #14 of 18
9/7/12 at 9:38am
Thread Starter 
Have you tried forcing the Dish receiver to 720p?
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post #15 of 18
9/7/12 at 9:40am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

My HTPC puts out a 16/10 ratio, intead of a 16/9 video.

Why is that? Is it from Europe/Asia?
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post #16 of 18
9/7/12 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

My HTPC puts out a 16/10 ratio, intead of a 16/9 video. Panasonic has no way to underscan it to fit my screen either. That is another reason I had to get a video processor.
I like my TV, don't get me wrong.

If you instead just had set your HTPC's output to 1920x1080p, which is 16:9 ratio, you would have achieved 2 important things:

1. You didn't have to buy DVDO.
2. You would have much better picture for all kinds of content coming from your HTPC (with or without your DVDO), because you would be using the native resolution of your TV.

There can't be any possible upsides of using a non-native resolution, let alone a different aspect ratio.
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post #17 of 18
9/11/12 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazishere View Post

I can vouch for the DVDO iScan Duo for my Panny TC-P55GT50. It makes a world of difference. I have the DVDO settings to force 1080p output, with 4:4:4 color, and Deep Color at 36 bits. I have the CMS set to CIE 1931 to reduce oversaturated colors. Wow. Wonderful difference. Now I can look forward to watching any source without cringing at the picture.
I tried to recreate these settings on the TV alone, but failed.
With the DVDO, I don't even have to mess with the TV Pro settings on my TV anymore because everything looks great without needing to calibrate it. I have the Disney WoW, and the Munse and Sperling calibration bluray discs, but I haven't even had to open them. BTW, I also have a Dish satellite setup, with a maximum resolution of 1080i, or 720p.
For Blu-ray, I can set the other input to bypass these output settings because every input can have a different output setting. In a word, convenient.

I think you meant Spears & Musil and if you had the disc and set them up going through each stage since order is important you might have found you would not need the DVDO or at least most of us that set our TV's up like this don't providing the set is of decent quality to begin with.
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post #18 of 18
9/25/12 at 8:42am
From C-Net:
Quote:
If the source lets you choose among other resolutions, check off every one that the TV can support. If there's a "native" option available, we recommend most users check that one off as well. These steps allow the TV to perform the video processing, and usually TVs do a better job of it than cable or satellite boxes. If you have a Blu-ray player and a TV that can handle 1080p/24 sources, we also recommend engaging that option. Computers should be set to output the native resolution of the display, as long as the TV can accept it. Check your manual if you're not sure what source resolutions your TV can support.



Ian
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