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Excessive Hallway Bass

post #1 of 62
Thread Starter 
The hallway in my apartment is a collection area for bass. The bass in the hallway is three times as strong then in the listening area, and that sound translates to my downstairs neighbors. There's no door to seal off the hallway from my living room, and alternate sub location doesn't seem to make a difference.

Has anyone sealed off a hallway without actually installing a door?

Because it's an apartment constructing a door is out of question. The hallway entrance is a narrow 2 1/2 feet wide and 8 feet high, so I'm looking into finding some type of acoustical divider or folding door that could be utilized to minimize the bass in the hallway. This is something I would only use occasionally, when having a party or when making noise past 2am.
post #2 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

The hallway in my apartment is a collection area for bass. The bass in the hallway is three times as strong then in the listening area, and that sound translates to my downstairs neighbors.

You have a bass trap thingy going on. Are you keeping the hall doors open or closed. Opening the hall doors should give the excess bass escape routes so they won't build up in the hallway.

Opening up and leaving a hallway closet door open into the hallway will direct the bass into a clothes filled space and act as a baffle to the bass waves.

Hope the above gives you some relief.
post #3 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

You have a bass trap thingy going on. Are you keeping the hall doors open or closed. Opening the hall doors should give the excess bass escape routes so they won't build up in the hallway.
Opening up and leaving a hallway closet door open into the hallway will direct the bass into a clothes filled space and act as a baffle to the bass waves.
Hope the above gives you some relief.

Utterly and completely incorrect.

To start with, a bass trap is a specific device used to reduce issues with room modes and other room issues. The term "Bass Trap" in no way refers to the problem you are having, but could be part of a physical solution. Given the wavelength of bass, opening or closing a typical hollow core interior door will have minimal if any impact on the transmission of bass throughout a building.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to contain bass (without significant construction). One technology you may want to look is Audyssey LFC which Audyssey touts as a tool to limit bass transmission. It may start to appear on high end units this year and should propagate down the price change next year. Not sure how effective it will be, but it is aimed at the type of problem you describe.
post #4 of 62
^^^Agreed...... Actually my HT is in my basement livingroom and it is is a sealed room with carpeted floor and drywall ceiling. My 16 month old daughter's bedroom is right above our living room and her room is carpeted, but her room has more bass sound than the living room. I even have dual Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Pluses with a downfiring woofer and downfiring port, and both subs are placed on DIY isolation riser platforms. So it is correct in saying that closing/sealing your room may do absolutely nothing.
post #5 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Utterly and completely incorrect.

No it's not. A bass trap is anything you want the trap to be. The hallway can be a tiger trap if the tiger can't get out. Anything that keeps anything from getting out, is a trap. As cars and trucks go by on the street, our front rooms and porch become bass traps and the sound waves are reenforced and build up above tolerable conversation levels. In the backyard, sound is not a problem as the back patio is open to the top and side with nowhere for the sound to be reinforced and build up as is the case on the front of the house. Step away from the containment area of the front porch and passing cars are no longer a consideration as there's no trapping of the sound waves.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trap

Reminds me of schoolyard bullies, always pushing themselves on others because they have to always be right.

If the bass can run out of the containment area, it won't be reenforced and build up as happens in hallways or "BASS TRAPS."

Open doors and the sound can leave and the outer rooms act as sound baffles. Sometimes one will have to open the windows so the sound can continue running out of the side rooms. Open closets with clothes hanging in them and the sound gets absorbed. Some people should try these solutions before trying to bully others.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 9:51am
post #6 of 62
I'm just not sure that the resonances in a hall (or in a corner or anywhere else bass tends to build up) is properly considered a "bass trap." It's a resonant location. My house is full of 'em, too.
post #7 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

I'm just not sure that the resonances in a hall (or in a corner or anywhere else bass tends to build up) is properly considered a "bass trap." It's a resonant location. My house is full of 'em, too.

It's not resonance, it's build up and reinforcement; expansion/compression like air being pumped into a tire. Air in a tire pump runs out of the air pump where it's contained in the tire bladder or inner tube. Amplified energy continually being pumped into the hallway.

Again, open windows and doors and see the SPL change. It's louder in our kitchen than the living room. Why? Because the sound can run out of the living room into the kitchen but there's no place for the perpendicular sound to run to in the kitchen, so the kitchen becomes a "sound trap." It's easier to build up SPL in an enclosed space then it is in an open space. And yes, I'm well aware of what a bass trap is, when used to describe a room treatment and I have known about this detail for about twenty years. In this case, obviously I'm not speaking of room treatments so the term, as applied to room treatments, doesn't apply in this case. The English language is a fluid language and a single term can be correctly used in many varied ways.

"Shiver me timbers." is a classic example of the fluid nature of the English language.

rolleyes.gif

It seems like all you guys want to do is argue, argue, argue, anything not to your liking. And no, I don't want to know why.

tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 10:24am
post #8 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No it's not. A bass trap is anything you want the trap to be. The hallway can be a tiger trap if the tiger can't get out. Anything that keeps anything from getting out, is a trap. As cars and trucks go by on the street, our front rooms and porch become bass traps and the sound waves are reenforced and build up above tolerable conversation levels. In the backyard, sound is not a problem as the back patio is open to the top and side with nowhere for the sound to be reinforced and build up as is the case on the front of the house. Step away from the containment area of the front porch and passing cars are no longer a consideration as there's no trapping of the sound waves.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trap
Reminds me of schoolyard bullies, always pushing themselves on others because they have to always be right.
If the bass can run out of the containment area, it won't be reenforced and build up as happens in hallways or "BASS TRAPS."
Open doors and the sound can leave and the outer rooms act as sound baffles. Sometimes one will have to open the windows so the sound can continue running out of the side rooms. Open closets with clothes hanging in them and the sound gets absorbed. Some people should try these solutions before trying to bully others.
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A bass trap cannot be anything you want the trap to be. A bass trap is a specific device and function when referring to audio - you may continue to use words incorrectly, but you don't get to redefine specific terminology. Providing a definition for the word "trap" in isolation from "bass" does nothing to further your point, other than to continue to make it obvious you shouldn't be making recommendations here. This is reinforced by your complete lack of understanding of how bass transmits through physical barriers. Leaving doors and windows open is meaningless - go look at the wavelength of a 30hz signal then explain how a pane of glass or hollow core door is going to impact it in a meaningful way.

Same advice as last time - post much less, read much more.

I do find it humerous that due to the frequency of your errors and the amount of time more knowledgeable users spend to make sure others don't follow your incorrect recommendations, they are now "bullies" to you.
post #9 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

It's not resonance, it's build up and reinforcement; expansion/compression like air being pumped into a tire. Air in a tire pump runs out of the air pump where it's contained in the tire bladder or inner tube. Amplified energy continually being pumped into the hallway.
Again, open windows and doors and see the SPL change. It's louder in our kitchen than the living room. Why? Because the sound can run out of the living room into the kitchen but there's no place for the perpendicular sound to run to in the kitchen, so the kitchen becomes a "sound trap." It's easier to build up SPL in an enclosed space then it is in an open space. And yes, I'm well aware of what a bass trap is, when used to describe a room treatment and I have known about this detail for about twenty years.
rolleyes.gif
It seems like all you guys want to do is argue, argue, argue, anything not to your liking. And no, I don't want to know why.
tongue.gif
-

Do you ever stop and wonder why so many members need to correct you so frequently? You should.

It can't be everyone else all the time.
post #10 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

The hallway in my apartment is a collection area for bass. The bass in the hallway is three times as strong then in the listening area, and that sound translates to my downstairs neighbors. There's no door to seal off the hallway from my living room, and alternate sub location doesn't seem to make a difference.
Has anyone sealed off a hallway without actually installing a door?
Because it's an apartment constructing a door is out of question. The hallway entrance is a narrow 2 1/2 feet wide and 8 feet high, so I'm looking into finding some type of acoustical divider or folding door that could be utilized to minimize the bass in the hallway. This is something I would only use occasionally, when having a party or when making noise past 2am.
Blocking bass sound waves requires mass. You won't get that from a folding door or even a wooden panel. The bass will go right through it, just like it goes right through your walls and floors to the neighboring apartments. More importantly, you are likely getting just as much acoustic transmission to the adjacent apartment(s) from coupling of the sound waves to the living room floor as from the hallway floor. Blocking that doorway likely will not fix, or even significantly reduce, the sound transmission. The best things to try are isolation pads like the SubDude: http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_subdude/subdude.asp Another possible solution could be to add tactile actuators, which provide a shaking effect without the acoustic output. Other than that, the only "tool" that will work is the volume control. tongue.gif

Craig

PS. It's not likely that the bass in the hallway is "louder" than in the living room. It's just that the midrange/treble doesn't transmit like the bass does, so all you hear is the bass.
Edited by craig john - 8/28/12 at 10:30am
post #11 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

I'm just not sure that the resonances in a hall (or in a corner or anywhere else bass tends to build up) is properly considered a "bass trap." It's a resonant location. My house is full of 'em, too.

Correct, but don't expect our resident "expert" to comprehend the difference.
post #12 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Do you ever stop and wonder why so many members need to correct you so frequently? You should.
It can't be everyone else all the time.

No I don't. You do realize that learning is a process of elimination of bad material, including eliminating information provided by experts. I remember the days in Geology where the island theory was taught. Now, we have Plate Tectonics. I purposely keep by my side, a science book from the late 50's, simply to remind me of how science get's it wrong.

I'm not your Huckleberry and I stand by my comment. One simply needs to open the doors and windows to see the amount of change that takes place. If sufficient change doesn't take place, close the windows and doors again. It's not a difficult exercise. Definitely not one worth arguing over.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 10:44am
post #13 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

No I don't. You do realize that learning is a process of elimination of bad material, including eliminating information provided by experts. I remember the days in Geology where the island theory was taught. Now, we have Plate Tectonics. I purposely keep by my side, a science book from the late 50's, simply to remind me of how science can get it wrong.
I'm not your Huckleberry and I stand by my comment. One simply needs to open the doors and windows to see the amount of change that takes place. If sufficient change doesn't take place, close the windows and doors again. It's not a difficult exercise. One definitely not worth arguing over.

Whatever you say, "Mr. Audio Science" rolleyes.gif There are enough alternate voices in this thread, in fact every other voice, providing the OP with accurate information so that he shouldn't waste time or money following your misunderstanding of the basics.
post #14 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Correct, but don't expect our resident "expert" to comprehend the difference.

Most of us in-the-know realize that resonances abound in most spaces. The genuine bass trap is a help as has been previously noted. We all have to make adjustments (of various kinds), eventually one just gets used to the hallway resonances and focuses on the sound at the listening position.
post #15 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Most of us in-the-know realize that resonances abound in most spaces. The genuine bass trap is a help as has been previously noted. We all have to make adjustments (of various kinds), eventually one just gets used to the hallway resonances and focuses on the sound at the listening position.

Agreed - I was only referring to a single "expert" in this thread who still wants to dispute that, not the vast majority of members.
post #16 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

Agreed - I was only referring to a single "expert" in this thread who still wants to dispute that, not the vast majority of members.

I haven't claimed to be an expert at anything. That's an albatross I let others wear. Open the doors and windows, don't open the doors and windows as it's all good.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 10:55am
post #17 of 62
Thread Starter 
Ok guys thanks for the input.

BeeMan458 you're spot on. Opening the the 3 doors in the hallway greatly diminishes the bass by 2/3's, however the bass is still quite strong compared to actual listening area.

Craig John I have my subs off the floor on an entertainment center and on isolation platforms. The bass is tight and I've done away with rattles in the listening space. I can play at uncomfortable volumes and you can barely hear anything in my next door neighbor's apartment that shares a wall with my livingroom. However the bass in the hallway is insanely amplified and that's what you hear in my downstairs neighbors apartment. The hallway walls and doors rattle big time even at moderate volumes, so the bass is definitely focused in that area. It's quite an interesting phenomena.
post #18 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

BeeMan458 you're spot on. Opening the the 3 doors in the hallway greatly diminishes the bass by 2/3's, however the bass is still quite strong compared to actual listening area.

Thanks! That's kind of you to say.

Without seeing your room, is the living room a flat or vaulted ceiling. From what you posted last, I'm guessing the living room ceiling is a higher ceiling then that of the hallway. Channeling the bass waves from the lvrm into the hallway, even with the doors open, has the affect of compressing the sound waves; pressurizing the hallway.

Out of curiosity, did you open the windows in the rooms attached to the hallway? Doing so should aid your situation.

Again, without seeing your lvrm/hallway layout, now you have a situation where the sound waves of the LFE subwoofer are having a party with the sound waves coming out of the mains; reenforcement. A suggestion to try, would be to set your main's LPF to 120Hz and let the subwoofer be the only emitter of the three creating sound waves at less than 120Hz. Make sure the sub is pointed towards the main listening position so as to not lose the directionality of the 80-120Hz content. This correction is best served by two subs, one next to each main speaker as a sort of bass surrogate to the mains.

What's happening is, the compressional forces of the amplified sounds are causing the hallway to expand and the expansion is being transmitted to your neighbors via the studs in the wall like a hammer on a railway track; resonance and then changed back to sound waves in the wall voids below; thump, thump, thump. The higher the hallway pressure, the more sound information will be transmitted to the wall interiors. Think placing a dry, empty water glass on a wall to hear what's being said in the room next door. The louder the conversation (sound pressure), the easier it is to understand what's being said.

I know, I know, I'm making this stuff up as I go. wink.gif

tongue.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 12:29pm
post #19 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

Ok guys thanks for the input.
BeeMan458 you're spot on. Opening the the 3 doors in the hallway greatly diminishes the bass by 2/3's, however the bass is still quite strong compared to actual listening area.
Craig John I have my subs off the floor on an entertainment center and on isolation platforms. The bass is tight and I've done away with rattles in the listening space. I can play at uncomfortable volumes and you can barely hear anything in my next door neighbor's apartment that shares a wall with my livingroom. However the bass in the hallway is insanely amplified and that's what you hear in my downstairs neighbors apartment. The hallway walls and doors rattle big time even at moderate volumes, so the bass is definitely focused in that area. It's quite an interesting phenomena.

Generally it is best not to try to come between birds (umm or bees) of a feather.
post #20 of 62
Thread Starter 
I'm running dual subs up front and next to the mains that are crossed over at 80Hz. I tried the subs in every corner, wall, pointing in every direction, but all of the energy is focusing in that one area. Running the subs up front and directed at the listening position sounds the best, so that's where they'll remain.

Ceilings are the same height throughout the apartment.

If I could just cut down the transmission to the hallway another 25% then I'm golden.

I was thinking something like this could get me that 25% I was looking for http://www.panelfold.com/products.asp?categoryID=2

Framing an actual door wouldn't go over well with the management, but I don't think they would mind me installing a few tracks for a folding door.
Edited by Spanglo - 8/28/12 at 12:44pm
post #21 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

I'm running dual subs up front and next to the mains that are crossed over at 80Hz. I tried the subs in every corner, wall, pointing in every direction, but all of the energy is focusing in that one area. Running the subs up front and directed at the listening position sounds the best, so that's where they'll remain.
Ceilings are the same height throughout the apartment.
If I could just cut down the transmission to the hallway another 25% then I'm golden.

Cool on the dual subs and how they're positioned. Change the crossover for the mains to 120Hz and see if that helps. My expectations would be, in doing this, it will remove the reenforcement of the "four" emitters working in synergistic concert with each other.

By chance are the subs pointed at the hallway? Despite popular belief, even if to our ears, LF sound waves are not directional, they're still directional in real terms hence why you feel the thump as the moving air hits your chest.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 12:49pm
post #22 of 62
Thread Starter 
Subs are not pointed down the hallway.

The mains at 80Hz are quiet, there's nothing going on when the subs off. I wouldn't expect 120Hz to make difference, but I'll try it out tonight when I get home from work to be sure.
post #23 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanglo View Post

Subs are not pointed down the hallway.
The mains at 80Hz are quiet, there's nothing going on when the subs off. I wouldn't expect 120Hz to make difference, but I'll try it out tonight when I get home from work to be sure.

The mains and the subs are acting or reenforcing each other as there's the wall created between 80Hz and 120Hz where the sub is fighting with the mains; sometimes for the good, and sometime for the bad.

When you run Audyssey and check how Audyssey has set your gain, are your subs shown to be set to -12dB, the max your AVR can turn the subs down? Are the sub's internal filters set to 120Hz?

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 1:13pm
post #24 of 62
Thread Starter 
My sub's low pass filter is disabled. I haven't heard any fighting with the mains, but when I crossover the mains to 120Hz I'll filter the subs accordingly and listen to the result.

The subs are running a little hot, but that's what sounds best to my ears. No need to sacrifice sound quality to appease my neighbors, because my neighbors and I are on good terms and they say they're fine with the noise I generate... and they have been for 6 years now. I would just like to impact my sweet as can be downstairs neighbor a bit less, because the sound comes through to her apartment more than my other neighbor.
post #25 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Cool on the dual subs and how they're positioned. Change the crossover for the mains to 120Hz and see if that helps. My expectations would be, in doing this, it will remove the reenforcement of the "four" emitters working in synergistic concert with each other.
By chance are the subs pointed at the hallway? Despite popular belief, even if to our ears, LF sound waves are not directional, they're still directional in real terms hence why you feel the thump as the moving air hits your chest.
-

Actually, everything I've read indicates that once the wavelength is long enough versus the dimensions of the box, radiation is omnidirectional. It's why there's a 6 dB increase from placing a sub on the ground versus suspending it in mid air. It's part of why open back guitar cabinets sound different from closed back cabs. It's pretty much all of why you never see a modern serious bass guitar speaker with an open back. There's cancellation between the back and front wave because they wrap around the cab.
post #26 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Actually, everything I've read indicates that once the wavelength is long enough versus the dimensions of the box, radiation is omnidirectional. It's why there's a 6 dB increase from placing a sub on the ground versus suspending it in mid air. It's part of why open back guitar cabinets sound different from closed back cabs. It's pretty much all of why you never see a modern serious bass guitar speaker with an open back. There's cancellation between the back and front wave because they wrap around the cab.

Fluid/airflow dynamics will show you about the wrap around effect; high pressure to low pressure. I'm not sure of your point as the wrap around effect has nothing to do with the directionality of the wave itself. As an example, a house has a front and sides and......? Totally unrelated but all a part of the same as one is discussing only the front of the house.

confused.gif

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/28/12 at 1:49pm
post #27 of 62
wow... gross misunderstanding of what bass traps "do" and how they work... but i guess i shouldn't be surprised...

just as a fwiw... a door that opens into an "infinite space" (which can be defined as a door that opens into the rest of the house) can and does function as a "bass trap", but it's not in any way because of no longer "containing" the sound wave... as noted by others, it's mass that "contains" waves, and the average interior household door will simply be ignored by low frequencies...

bass trapping and bass containment should not be confused with each other, it's two completely different subjects... you could construct a completely sound-proof room, but the response within that room would still need to be addressed...

bass containment = not letting it out of the room...
bass trapping = controlling the areas where bass tends to build up and linger and effect response...

two different concepts...
post #28 of 62
I had a similar experience in my own home theater. I use dual subs as well and noticed that the bass was stronger in the adjoining room than on the couch. I repositioned the sub that i suspected was causing that and that altered that dramatically. It might be a good idea to not be attached to keeping the subs where you have them, as you have found that they are not in the best place sonically, and play around with sub placement in your room and perhaps, find a more optimal place.
post #29 of 62
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/trap

1. To catch in a trap; ensnare. See Synonyms at catch.
2. To prevent from escaping or getting free: was trapped in the locked attic.

Whether written or spoken, even if not to the liking of another, the purpose of language is to convey or communicate ideas.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 8/30/12 at 7:21am
post #30 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by shivaji View Post

I had a similar experience in my own home theater. I use dual subs as well and noticed that the bass was stronger in the adjoining room than on the couch. I repositioned the sub that i suspected was causing that and that altered that dramatically. It might be a good idea to not be attached to keeping the subs where you have them, as you have found that they are not in the best place sonically, and play around with sub placement in your room and perhaps, find a more optimal place.

bingo...

i can easily change the bass i get in the bathroom by re-arranging the subs in the theater... smile.gif
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