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best preamplifier for movies........ to match with trinnov - Page 2

post #31 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

The modded Oppo takes the CBIII out of the equation completely. I run digital into my Trinnov directly from the Oppo S/PDIF outputs. The Oppo does the decoding to LPCM. So there is no post processing other than what the Oppo can do. I sold my CBIII.
The CBIII + digi out it an alternative all digital approach, which is far more flexible (for starters you can switch multiple sources, and you have far superior bass management functionality). It uses a standard players' HDMI as source, decodes and sends to digi out card as LPCM. This has following drawbacks:
More expensive
Downsampling on sourcing above 48/24
Probably inferior sound quality, because the modded Oppo uses proprietary DSD-LPCM conversion and reclocking, and S/PDIF is inherently a better protocal to transmit high rez digital audio.

You can configure the Trinnov to have multiple digital inputs, correct?
If so, then it seems that the ideal scenario would be to have both a Theta with digital out and a modded Oppo connected to the Trinnov MC. As you noted, the Theta would be for all the other sources (Kaleidescape, TV source, game consoles, etc.) and the Oppo would be for Blu-Ray above 48/24, 3D (since K* doesn't do 3D), SACD, and DVDA. That should cover just about everything and still be less than the ADA reference. Plus, this combination would also have DTS Neo X and the option for Dirac if you want it, two things the ADA reference doesn't have.
post #32 of 76
Ideally a modded Oppo but for Blu Ray movies, 48/24 is plenty for Blu Ray. Nice solution worth considering. Seems as all you need is a used Theta, basic DACs and a DIGI card. What is the cost of the DIGI card?

Any other unknown disadvantages in running a theater with this configuration.
post #33 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

You can configure the Trinnov to have multiple digital inputs, correct?
If so, then it seems that the ideal scenario would be to have both a Theta with digital out and a modded Oppo connected to the Trinnov MC. As you noted, the Theta would be for all the other sources (Kaleidescape, TV source, game consoles, etc.) and the Oppo would be for Blu-Ray above 48/24, 3D (since K* doesn't do 3D), SACD, and DVDA. That should cover just about everything and still be less than the ADA reference. Plus, this combination would also have DTS Neo X and the option for Dirac if you want it, two things the ADA reference doesn't have.

If you buy an MC8, all your digital inputs would be taken up by a single MCH digital source (Oppo or Theta CBIII). If you want to run both into a Trinnov you either need an MC16 (waste of money). A much smarter solution is to get a digital router/switch (Z-system Z8) that you put in front of the Trinnov. This is what I use. I have three digital sources into the Trinnov. USB Converter for 2 channel, Oppo for BR and SACD and I bought a Meridan 568 for satellite TV. The Meridian has S/PDIF digital outputs.

However, for your application a much smarter (and cheaper) way to do this is to simply get a mid-fi processor (say Marantz for 2K) for non critical sources (TV, gaming etc.), and run this into the 8 analog inputs of the MC8. No need to buy a CBIII + digi out card (which will set you back 8-9K), and no need to get a digital switch. You simply create 2 presets on the Trinnov, one digital in (Oppo) and one analog in (SSP).

If you seriously interested I can help you put this together. I even figured out the RS232 control with iRule on the Trinnov (courtesy of Trinnov Fance), which takes a phd in math.
post #34 of 76
Thread Starter 
In several threads and reviews I read about
"distinctive Theta sound"..
How would you describe it?
.. And compared to ada's sound?
Is this aspect anyway irrilevant given that I'm going to use Trinnov dacs through the digital path?
Or, again, does the sound depend on the amp more than the ssp?

.. By the way, you are right when you suggest to buy the amp that sounds good with my speakers (which tend to sound bright due to their horns)
Even changing the brand respect to the one of the ssp
But at list in my Country is not so easy to try in a relatively short time several amp in your home, with your speakers and the same ssp...
That's way I tend to remain within the same brand (in addition to a cosmetic reason:p).
It's easier to arrange a try with the dealer carring ssp and amp of the same brand (he sells)..
That was the case of Ada crm4 and ptm5150...
How can I restrict the number of suitable amps for my speackers (klipsch thx ultra2) and movies?
Any suggestion?
post #35 of 76
Forget ADA sound and Theta sound. You are going to get trinnov digital input sound or trinnov analog input sound, and the trinnov digital in is going to sound better.
post #36 of 76
Trinnov Audio, a France based company, is set to unveil its first home theatre processor at CEDIA 2012, this September. The new Trinnov Audio Magnitude32 features the Trinnov Optimizer technology providing advanced digital room correction and unique Image Remapping that adapts the original media soundscape to the actual loudspeaker placements. Magnitude32 handles any home theater project from “classic” 7.1 to the most sophisticated installations with multiple subwoofers, individually driven surrounds and multi-amplified speakers,controlling up to 32 channels.

Trinnov Magnitude32 key features:

Analog output: 8 channels (XLR) expendable to 12, 16, 24 or 32 channels (Sub-D25)
Analog inputs: 8 channels (XLR) expendable to 12 or 16 channels (Sub-D25)
High performance audio: 64-bit floating point processing and 119dBA AD/DA converters
Powerful Trinnov Optimizer Algorithm with:
multi-point measurement of all loudspeakers
time-frequency analysis: the loudspeakers and the room are separately equalized
Automatic optimization of the amplitude and phase response according to Target Curves
Intelligent active crossovers: automatic alignment of delays and gains for every driver
Image Remapping to adapt the original media soundscape to the actual loudspeaker layout.
Easy and accurate setup with comprehensive graphs and fine tuning tools.
Control via Ethernet network, RS-232, KVM, smartphone/tablet or optional IR module.



The new Trinnov Audio Magnitude32 will be available in October 2012, in 8, 12 and 16 channels configurations and by December 2012 in 24 and 32 channels. Pricing is yet to be announced. Look for more details at: www.trinnov.com.
post #37 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbr View Post

Trinnov Audio, a France based company, is set to unveil its first home theatre processor at CEDIA 2012, this September. 

How can you call this a "home theater processor?"  It is a complex DSP/EQ and has none of the features needed for multiple digital inputs, video or integration.

post #38 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

How can you call this a "home theater processor?"  It is a complex DSP/EQ and has none of the features needed for multiple digital inputs, video or integration.
News bulletin....Trinnov announces a "complex DSP/EQ processor" that can be used in home theaters.smile.gif
post #39 of 76
'Processor'?

So, HDMI inputs, DTS MA / TRUE HD decoding, etc??biggrin.gif

What's the price increase over the TEQs?
post #40 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

'Processor'?
So, HDMI inputs, DTS MA / TRUE HD decoding, etc??biggrin.gif
What's the price increase over the TEQs?

My prediction. It will be cheaper. First, ADA is out of the deal, so only one company needs to make money on this. Second, it has no ADA integration - additional engineering. Third, chassis is cheaper. The 8/12 mc pro units are cheaper than the TEQ. This model has less functionality (no digi in / out). Why would it be more expensive than TEQ?
post #41 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

My prediction. It will be cheaper. First, ADA is out of the deal, so only one company needs to make money on this. Second, it has no ADA integration - additional engineering. Third, chassis is cheaper. The 8/12 mc pro units are cheaper than the TEQ. This model has less functionality (no digi in / out). Why would it be more expensive than TEQ?

I'm no engineer but it does have a multi channel digital input. Not sure of the cost on that.

I'm not sure why you'd need the ADA integration after it is all installed - I mean if only for volume control, the Mach IV has 4 volume presets that can be inout specific so as to keep the relative volume levels between sources very close to each other (if not accounted for in the programming of the DSP).

Not sure.
post #42 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I'm no engineer but it does have a multi channel digital input. Not sure of the cost on that.
I'm not sure why you'd need the ADA integration after it is all installed - I mean if only for volume control, the Mach IV has 4 volume presets that can be inout specific so as to keep the relative volume levels between sources very close to each other (if not accounted for in the programming of the DSP).
Not sure.

There is no reference to a digital input in the magnitude32. No matter how you look at it, but a fancier box, a bit of integration engineering and two companies that need to make a buck instead of one suggest that the TEQ will be more expenisve than the Magniture32.

Keep in mind that Trinnov will be sold as through a factory direct model. If a TEQ8 sells for say 12K, the dealer gets around 5K. Lets assume ADA takes a 2K cut. This leaves 5K for Trinnov. So Trinnov can make money on an 8 channel TEQ unit if they get 5K. So if they sell a magnitude32 8 channel box for say 8K, they make MORE money, AND undercut the TEQ8, simply because they don't have a dealer network to feed.
Edited by edorr - 9/4/12 at 10:41am
post #43 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

.
Keep in mind that Trinnov will be sold as through a factory direct model. .
Is that confirmed?
post #44 of 76
So, what is the ADA Mach IV integration that the Magnitude32 lacks?

Thanks for the info

Jeff
post #45 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

So, what is the ADA Mach IV integration that the Magnitude32 lacks?
Thanks for the info
Jeff

I could be wrong but I believe the TEQ is controlled from the ADA remote / interface. The Mach IV communicates with the TEQ through the ADA bus. Not sure how this would unlock the entire potential of the TEQ/Trinnov, because there is way too much functionality in the Trinnov to control everything from the ADA. However, for basic volume up and down type stuff I believe you have ADA sending control information to the TEQ. If you had a magnitude32 you would not have this. Of course, you could still achieve functional integration using iRule and programming the rs232 commands for Mach IV and Magnitude32 and invoking them from the same page in iRule. This would not be for the faint of heart though.
post #46 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Is that confirmed?

Unless they create a dealer network out of thin air before starting to sell the magnitude32, it is a safe assumption.
post #47 of 76
I do not know about your countries.... But Trinnov has quite an established dealers network here in UK.
post #48 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

News bulletin....Trinnov announces a "complex DSP/EQ processor" that can be used in home theaters.smile.gif

Indeed.

post #49 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

I do not know about your countries.... But Trinnov has quite an established dealers network here in UK.

Not so in the Americas. But good point. If they operate through dealers in Europe that would elminate the factory direct cost advantage over the TEQ I alluded to.
post #50 of 76
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

With 48/24 movies you also don't have to worry about the downsampling on the digi out card..

Are you sure about 48/24? Talking with Buldogger, he assured it's 48/16...
post #51 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Are you sure about 48/24? Talking with Buldogger, he assured it's 48/16...

Not 100%. You can check the HDMI licensing terms and/or Theta tech support. If it is indeed 48/16 that would make the whole digi out / GenVIII proposition quite a bit less compelling (and the Oppo modded route more compelling).
post #52 of 76
Thread Starter 
Sorry Edorr.. but why oppo modded doesn't have the downsampling issue?
Is there a way to go digitally into the trinnov avoiding the downsampling issue?
post #53 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Sorry Edorr.. but why oppo modded doesn't have the downsampling issue?
Is there a way to go digitally into the trinnov avoiding the downsampling issue?

The modded oppo is basically I hacked machine that no manufacturer can legally sell - you have to buy a board and install it yourself. I believe JVB now also sells the boards and/or the modded players. No downsampling. Yes, it can go directly digtially into the Trinnov. If you have a Trinnov Pro unit, you need to convert S/PDIF to AES/EBU.
post #54 of 76
Thread Starter 
Strange. Trinnov has digital inputs and the only way to use them
Is an iilegal trick...
Legal/illegal apart the modded oppo goes into the trinnov through aes/ebu?
Which is the particular kind of digital connection that alows to avoid downsampling?
Well, if I have a source (or the only one is modded oppo?), mediaplayer i.e. with aes/ebu I can go direct digitally into the Trinnov..
But if I want go digitally through a preamp I am subjected to downsample..

Datasat has digital inputs as well. Theorically, Could I go digitally into it and than into the trinnov?
In other words You are subjected to downsample just when you use hdmi?
post #55 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Strange. Trinnov has digital inputs and the only way to use them
Is an iilegal trick...
Legal/illegal apart the modded oppo goes into the trinnov through aes/ebu?
Which is the particular kind of digital connection that alows to avoid downsampling?
Well, if I have a source (or the only one is modded oppo?), mediaplayer i.e. with aes/ebu I can go direct digitally into the Trinnov..
But if I want go digitally through a preamp I am subjected to downsample..
Datasat has digital inputs as well. Theorically, Could I go digitally into it and than into the trinnov?
In other words You are subjected to downsample just when you use hdmi?

The downsampling happens only with HDMI sources. Digital MCH AES/EBU inputs are mainly used in professional applications, which is where both the Datasat and Trinnov originate from. For consumer use, MCH non-HDMI digital will be a very small niche, which explains why the new Trinnov consumer product Magniture32 is analog in only.

Non professional users would benefit greatly from at least a 2 channel digital input so they can do room correction and bass management using the same processor they use for multi channel. This 2 channel path will have no downsampling / bandwidth restrictions. If Theta ships the Dirac upgrade on the CBIII HD, this would also give you DRC and bass management on digital 2 channel input with no bandwith restriction (up to 96/24), and HDMI for multi channel.

Datasat will accept digital inputs as well, but adding a Trinnov behind the Datasat is overkill/redundant, because the Datasat has its own DRC.
post #56 of 76
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

Datasat will accept digital inputs as well, but adding a Trinnov behind the Datasat is overkill/redundant, because the Datasat has its own DRC.

Of course is redundant but if I want trinnov instead of dirac and go digitally through a preamp this would be the only way at the moment, wouldn't it?

Otherwise
The analog connection is the only one possible , unless at that point,
Datasat with its Dirac inside could be even better...

Which is the best solution?
Casablanca III HD with digital out card and mc (downsampling);
Datasat rs20i with dirac;
Ada cinema rhapsody with mc
Or the crazy datasat/trinnov combo?
post #57 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

Of course is redundant but if I want trinnov instead of dirac and go digitally through a preamp this would be the only way at the moment, wouldn't it?
Otherwise
The analog connection is the only one possible , unless at that point,
Datasat with its Dirac inside could be even better...
Which is the best solution?
Casablanca III HD with digital out card and mc (downsampling);
Datasat rs20i with dirac;
Ada cinema rhapsody with mc
Or the crazy datasat/trinnov combo?

The datasat will downsame as well. I would do cbiii + trinnov, or datasat only.
post #58 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

The downsampling happens only with HDMI sources. Digital MCH AES/EBU inputs are mainly used in professional applications, which is where both the Datasat and Trinnov originate from. For consumer use, MCH non-HDMI digital will be a very small niche, which explains why the new Trinnov consumer product Magniture32 is analog in only.
Non professional users would benefit greatly from at least a 2 channel digital input so they can do room correction and bass management using the same processor they use for multi channel. This 2 channel path will have no downsampling / bandwidth restrictions. If Theta ships the Dirac upgrade on the CBIII HD, this would also give you DRC and bass management on digital 2 channel input with no bandwith restriction (up to 96/24), and HDMI for multi channel.
Datasat will accept digital inputs as well, but adding a Trinnov behind the Datasat is overkill/redundant, because the Datasat has its own DRC.

I don't think it's totally redundant to have Trinnov after Datasat, as I believe that Trinnov has a few tricks such as 3d re-imaging (i.e., bringing a center channel higher or lower), moving sound around room, etc. If Grifo is looking for an all digital Trinnov, then it looks like there are 4 choices:

1. Modded Oppo and other switching through an input device and then into Trinnov MC (what you have, but lacks normal pre-pro functionality)
2. Datasat with digital out into Trinnov MC
3. Theta CB3 with digital out into Trinnov MC
4. ADA reference

Obviously Option 4 has the greatest flexibility and performance, but it also costs 40K. As for 2 vs 3, curious if there would be much of a cost difference.
post #59 of 76
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sipester View Post

I don't think it's totally redundant to have Trinnov after Datasat, as I believe that Trinnov has a few tricks such as 3d re-imaging (i.e., bringing a center channel higher or lower), moving sound around room, etc. If Grifo is looking for an all digital Trinnov, then it looks like there are 4 choices:
1. Modded Oppo and other switching through an input device and then into Trinnov MC (what you have, but lacks normal pre-pro functionality)
2. Datasat with digital out into Trinnov MC
3. Theta CB3 with digital out into Trinnov MC
4. ADA reference
Obviously Option 4 has the greatest flexibility and performance, but it also costs 40K. As for 2 vs 3, curious if there would be much of a cost difference.

well,
you hit the nail on the head.
I need pre-pro functionality... and Ada Reference is too expensive for me.
Besides I'd prefer a stand alone unit like the trinnov mc over an integrated one like the dirac
because if in the future I'll have to change the preamp I'd prefer to keep the DRC;
That's why I' m interested in the best room correction device..
Datasat is a bet, being a new product, and the lack of several surround modes like dolby prologic IIx
lets me a bit concerned. Anyway I'm looking forward to listen to it..
I have the opportunity to get a media server/br player with aes/ebu outputs so that I could go direct digitally into
the rs20i avoiding downsampling and this could be a serious advantage..
CB3 hd is what I'd like the most but the downsampling.. perhaps to 96/16.. I don't know..
difference in terms of price between CB3hd digiout trinnov and RS20i trinnov could be a surprise..
On the other side I remember the great performance of CRM4/teq
and don't forget what Dan Francis wrote about the comparison between Ada/teq vs Datasat/dirac..
and with Ada I could even save money...
post #60 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifo View Post

well,
you hit the nail on the head.
I need pre-pro functionality... and Ada Reference is too expensive for me.
Besides I'd prefer a stand alone unit like the trinnov mc over an integrated one like the dirac
because if in the future I'll have to change the preamp I'd prefer to keep the DRC;
That's why I' m interested in the best room correction device..
Datasat is a bet, being a new product, and the lack of several surround modes like dolby prologic IIx
lets me a bit concerned. Anyway I'm looking forward to listen to it..
I have the opportunity to get a media server/br player with aes/ebu outputs so that I could go direct digitally into
the rs20i avoiding downsampling and this could be a serious advantage..
CB3 hd is what I'd like the most but the downsampling.. perhaps to 96/16.. I don't know..
difference in terms of price between CB3hd digiout trinnov and RS20i trinnov could be a surprise..
On the other side I remember the great performance of CRM4/teq
and don't forget what Dan Francis wrote about the comparison between Ada/teq vs Datasat/dirac..
and with Ada I could even save money...

A couple of clarifying points. It's not the digital input that matters, it's the output that matters and as far as I know, both the Datasat and Theta have to downsample the same per HDMI specs. One other option is if using an HD Fury in the HDMI chain would remove the copy protection, see link here: http://www.hdfury.com/products/hdfury4-specs/ If not, then you will be stuck with downsampling with both the Datasat or the Theta.

If the downsampling is too much of an issue and you instead just want to go with analog out to a Trinnov box, then you don't have to go with ADA, you could instead go with any pre-pro you want. The ADA is a great piece, but you certainly aren't required to use the ADA if you want to use a Trinnov box using analog.
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