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My FTW21 Build thread - Page 8

post #211 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Both will get you from A to B, just in different ways. Bottom line the DCX doesnt require use of a laptop to make the changes (which is what ultimately decided it for me) and you can adjust on the fly right from the front panel, however you CAN use a PC to adjust as well with a rs232 plugin. The MiniDSP has a little more adjust-ability and also can be used to make changes below 20hz which the DCX cant.
what else? eh, DCX is 3 in, 6 out and the Mini has 2x4 2x8 4x10 10x10 in price increments to reflect the amounts...

Interesting... For "us" types the adjustability under 20Hz seems to be the major draw between the two, but I wonder just how impartant that would be in real world use? Would the MiniDSP replace the SMS-1?
post #212 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Interesting... For "us" types the adjustability under 20Hz seems to be the major draw between the two, but I wonder just how impartant that would be in real world use? Would the MiniDSP replace the SMS-1?

Possibly. There are ways to create shelf filters under 20hz without too much effort. So far, It doesnt seem that I really need one so I havent messed with it, my room gain is pretty solid down low. big sealed systems as we all have certainly benefit from a shelf in most cases, and if you are wanting to HP below 20hz, which the sms-1 can also do. They are all very capable systems. I really liked the ability to adjust from the panel of the DCX over the other two systems so that is what I went with. The sms-1 will be a little easier and user friendly but is the least versatile for after-measurement custom tweaking, but I have still yet to plug mine in and try it out. I definitely need to sometime soon though.
post #213 of 356
Scott or anyone else, Thanks for answering about the mini 10x10 in the other thread. So when I asked about the box you didnt know what I was talking about but I saw in this thread where it is able to be placed in a rack. Is that standard on the 10x10? That was the only reason I asked about the box. If I can mount the 10x10 in a rack that should be the last eq I would need most likely.
post #214 of 356
I really wish the mini would come out with a XLR version. I have a 50 foot run and RCA's are a tad noisy and i hate the phenoix connectors.
post #215 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Possibly. There are ways to create shelf filters under 20hz without too much effort. So far, It doesnt seem that I really need one so I havent messed with it, my room gain is pretty solid down low. big sealed systems as we all have certainly benefit from a shelf in most cases, and if you are wanting to HP below 20hz, which the sms-1 can also do. They are all very capable systems. I really liked the ability to adjust from the panel of the DCX over the other two systems so that is what I went with. The sms-1 will be a little easier and user friendly but is the least versatile for after-measurement custom tweaking, but I have still yet to plug mine in and try it out. I definitely need to sometime soon though.

I'm with you on both. The DCX is nice if you want to be able to just walk up to it and tinker with immediate results. Pretty much all the MDSP's need to be hooked to a computer and tweaked with software. It's very capable but it wouldn't be very good in the 'field' if you know what I mean. The MDSP is still very capable as a tinkerer though. It is however a consumer device and the DCX is professional oriented. Both good devices that have their own strengths and weaknesses.

WRT shelving.... almost all sealed system need their shelving to take effect in the ~30hz region. Room gain does wonders so it does little to help start a boost below 20hz which the DCX could get a away with. The MDSP does have the capability to put something like a HPF below 20hz which is very useful for someone that has a low tuned resonant system or ....haha, those of you with LMS-U's with too much power. wink.giftongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Scott or anyone else, Thanks for answering about the mini 10x10 in the other thread. So when I asked about the box you didnt know what I was talking about but I saw in this thread where it is able to be placed in a rack. Is that standard on the 10x10? That was the only reason I asked about the box. If I can mount the 10x10 in a rack that should be the last eq I would need most likely.

Ah I see. There are several levels of Mini DSP systems sold by ummm....the company that sells them. There are straight up kit systems that are just a board that you put together yourself mostly as a project. Saves some money over the MiniDSP In-A-Box that nearly everyone uses. It's in a small case but not rack mountable. It's just a small enclosure to cover the circuit board. It is, however, a very powerful system that is damn affordable. Most people would not need any more than the typical MDSP In-A-Box.

It looks like this:



Unless you want something that looks nice with all your other components there are these....The extra special versions are the 4x10hd and the 10x10hd. The first of which is just the 2x8 kit packaged in a nice black metal enclosure that is rack mountable. The 10x10 is just the 8x8 kit in the same enclosure.

They look like this:



I would definitely say, at this moment in time, either of these two choice (hd models) would be the last EQ one would ever need. I'll take my own stab at that statement when I get the 10x10hd for myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I really wish the mini would come out with a XLR version. I have a 50 foot run and RCA's are a tad noisy and i hate the phenoix connectors.

Agreed. I guess it takes up less space to use Phoenix connectors over XLR.
Edited by Scott Simonian - 10/1/12 at 10:19pm
post #216 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Gorgeous piece of kit right there... Sleek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I would definitely say, at this moment in time, either of these two choice (hd models) would be the last EQ one would ever need. I'll take my own stab at that statement when I get the 10x10hd for myself.

"Last EQ one would ever need" sounds like "the" solution.

Wha's the ETA on the 10x10hd? Looking forward to your feedback for sure, especially if you can make a direct comparison to the SMS-1.

Man, we are massively off topic...lol
post #217 of 356
I had the privilege to hear FatShaft's system last night. In two words JAW DROPPING!!! The amount of bass in the room is insane.
To imagine he is going to be adding another one is mind boggling. The bass is so deep so hard hitting words cannot describe it. It needs to be felt and heard.
They play so smooth but when called upon hit you like a ton of bricks.
We must have been in there for a few minutes listening at levels from -35 to -18, this was the first time I've ever felt nausea after a demo lol
Your spoken words flutter, your vision gets blurry but the whole time I was smiling like an idiot lol
Fat, you've got one helluva room. Thank you for inviting me into your home and I'm 110% sure you are DONE!!!

To anyone who is reading this debating DIY or retail/Id subs....THERE IS NO COMPARISON. Coming from 12"/15" Velos and Dual SVS PB12s, what the 21s
did was unreal. Unreal unreal unreal.
post #218 of 356
Nausea = Awesome

4th one will be the cherry on top, but don't expect a significant gain in output. Especially since you are running your old 15" as a stand in.

I'm wondering if it will even be audible/noticable? Regardless, it should go further in smoothing room response and you will finally get that feeling of.... "Ahhhhhh, everything is in order."

Congrats buddy... =)
post #219 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

however you CAN use a PC to adjust as well with a rs232 plugin.
Just to clarify, the PC does not need a RS-232 (serial) port. You can use a USB to RS-232 adapter cable from the computer to the DCX2496.
post #220 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Just to clarify, the PC does not need a RS-232 (serial) port. You can use a USB to RS-232 adapter cable from the computer to the DCX2496.

Can tweaking be done over your network vs. having to physically plug your laptop into the DCX2496?

If so, can the same be done with the MiniDSP? Or is that simply too much to ask?
post #221 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I really wish the mini would come out with a XLR version. I have a 50 foot run and RCA's are a tad noisy and i hate the phenoix connectors.

This is the only reason I havent done it yet. I know so many people that said it is really not that big of a deal, but as my High School football coach used to say "You can F* up free ice cream."
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Can tweaking be done over your network vs. having to physically plug your laptop into the DCX2496?
If so, can the same be done with the MiniDSP? Or is that simply too much to ask?

No network connection unless you really get outside the unit and do something crazy, that I dont even know about. neither have a wireless network connection of any type.

On the nausea thing, FS, Im guessing you are not on a concrete slab?
post #222 of 356
Thread Starter 
Scott,

Thanks for the suggestions re: MiniDSP.
I'm wanting to buy one ASAP and to be honest, am not sure which one to buy yet.
2x4 Balanced or unbalanced. I would think the ones with the RCA connections would be good enough?
Anything else I should know before I pull the trigger?

JimmyLeggs,

Thanks for the comments and am very happy you liked it.
Having built practically everything makes me even more proud...Thanks!
I'm sorry about the nausea though.

Beastaudio,
You ask if I'm on concrete slap...I don't understand...sorry.
But, Yes I am on concrete slab. (where I sit there's carpet and underneath the carpet is the cement foundation)
My subs are on the stage (Front) and riser (Back) and they are completely filled with sand.

@ Kanaris,
You're welcome to my place at ANYTIME! Just let me know when.

Regards,
post #223 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Scott,
Thanks for the suggestions re: MiniDSP.
I'm wanting to buy one ASAP and to be honest, am not sure which one to buy yet.
2x4 Balanced or unbalanced. I would think the ones with the RCA connections would be good enough?
Anything else I should know before I pull the trigger?
JimmyLeggs,
Thanks for the comments and am very happy you liked it.
Having built practically everything makes me even more proud...Thanks!
I'm sorry about the nausea though.
Beastaudio,
You ask if I'm on concrete slap...I don't understand...sorry.
But, Yes I am on concrete slab. (where I sit there's carpet and underneath the carpet is the cement foundation)
My subs are on the stage (Front) and riser (Back) and they are completely filled with sand.
@ Kanaris,
You're welcome to my place at ANYTIME! Just let me know when.
Regards,

Just from having Edogg over this weekend, he mentioned with the RE's that the "tactile" feel really wasnt there and we deduced that it is due to my couch sitting directly on carpeted concrete slab, that obviously doesnt move. It made me feel better somewhat that heard/felt the same thing, but at the same time made me realize that I have something seriously going on that needs to be remedied if you have people's vision blurring at -18 and I can't even feel the bass all that much at reference...
post #224 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Scott,
Thanks for the suggestions re: MiniDSP.
I'm wanting to buy one ASAP and to be honest, am not sure which one to buy yet.
2x4 Balanced or unbalanced. I would think the ones with the RCA connections would be good enough?
Anything else I should know before I pull the trigger?

Sure... what else do you want to know? wink.gif

I want to say just go for the balanced one but it's really up to you. Or you could get the unbalanced if that seems easier. Someone else might know what the best choice is. This is a quote from the MiniDSP site's FAQ about the difference between the RevA and RevB:
Quote:
In an effort to keep everybody happy, our miniDSP 2x4 kit/box comes with a switchable jumper on the input to adjust the maximum input signal.

◦Version A is meant for consumer line level signal (-10dBV) such as a PC source, Portable media players or any other sources with an output level < 0.9Vrms. The intend of this version is to have high input sensitivity for such low driving sources, hence driving the miniDSP close to the input level ADC like to be (-15dB below headroom).
◦Version B is meant for CD player line level (2Vrms), preamplifiers or any other source with higher output driving capabilities. If you intend to insert your miniDSP kit in line with such source, you better use this version otherwise overdriving of the input converters will result in saturation, aka poor sound quality.
Important Notes:
◦All miniDSP kit/box are fitted with jumpers that can easily be toggled from revA to revB. Informaiton is clearly detailed in the user manual
◦miniDSP 2x4 kit/box have adjustable input sensitivity (i.e. max input) but fixed output level.

So you really won't pick a wrong one as they can be switched around easily. It's if you want it unbalanced or not would be the decision. It's up to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Just from having Edogg over this weekend, he mentioned with the RE's that the "tactile" feel really wasnt there and we deduced that it is due to my couch sitting directly on carpeted concrete slab, that obviously doesnt move. It made me feel better somewhat that heard/felt the same thing, but at the same time made me realize that I have something seriously going on that needs to be remedied if you have people's vision blurring at -18 and I can't even feel the bass all that much at reference...

I don't get any of that either. frown.gif Also on concrete. No blurred vision. frown.gif Maybe I don't listen loud enough? The coolest effect I get since putting in the LLT's is that my futon couch will jiggle with <20hz high SPL stuff. That is fun!
Edited by Scott Simonian - 10/2/12 at 11:16am
post #225 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Just from having Edogg over this weekend, he mentioned with the RE's that the "tactile" feel really wasnt there and we deduced that it is due to my couch sitting directly on carpeted concrete slab, that obviously doesnt move. It made me feel better somewhat that heard/felt the same thing, but at the same time made me realize that I have something seriously going on that needs to be remedied if you have people's vision blurring at -18 and I can't even feel the bass all that much at reference...

Beast,

When I crank the volume (say -20) it feels like I'm getting hit by a sledgehammer from both the front and the back side.
Why wouldn't you feel that When I do, and I'm on Concrete slab too?
Another thing. If I reverse polarity my subs in the back...my whole house vibrates like crazy, but don't get that chest pounding. (That's where I don't still know how I should connect my subs. confused.gif
Is it because my room is small?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Sure... what else do you want to know? wink.gif

Thanks...
If I buy the unblanaced...does this make sense?
I connect both RCA out from the amp to the input of the MinDSP
The 4 outs from the MiniDSP would then go to each of the 4 inputs in my 10000Q?
IF this is the case I would need:
2x RCA to RCA cables
4x RCA to XLR cables

Does this make sense?

I wouldn't have a clue how to connect it with the balanced version.
post #226 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I don't get any of that either. frown.gif Also on concrete. No blurred vision. frown.gif Maybe I don't listen loud enough? The coolest effect I get since putting in the LLT's is that my futon couch will jiggle with <20hz high SPL stuff. That is fun!

Looks like we both have some work to do
post #227 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Looks like we both have some work to do

Yeah. I'm going brute force with all them JBL's. tongue.gif


So guys.... guys who hate Phoenix connectors....

I found these with a ....simple Google search. I know! Right?!?! tongue.gif

56.jpg

519x218px-LL-f4f993bc_phoenix-to-xlr.PNG

I knew I had seen this before and it was posted by John (LTD02) in another thread about the MiniDSP : http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416852/atte-bosso-mark-seaton-chasw98-et-al#post_22154735

Just search Phoenix to XLR. There were several of them for sale for only a few bucks. But yeah... one shouldn't have to. wink.gif
Edited by Scott Simonian - 10/2/12 at 11:48am
post #228 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

If I buy the unblanaced...does this make sense?
I connect both RCA out from the amp to the input of the MinDSP
The 4 outs from the MiniDSP would then go to each of the 4 inputs in my 10000Q?
IF this is the case I would need:
2x RCA to RCA cables
4x RCA to XLR cables
Does this make sense?
I wouldn't have a clue how to connect it with the balanced version.

Yup. You have it exactly correct. Pretty simple, right? smile.gif

With the balanced version, just get the Phoenix to XLR adapters. Easy. The Phoenix connectors seem to throw people off. There are three pins in an XLR connector. The Phoenix has the same, it's just a flat connector.
post #229 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yup. You have it exactly correct. Pretty simple, right? smile.gif
With the balanced version, just get the Phoenix to XLR adapters. Easy. The Phoenix connectors seem to throw people off. There are three pins in an XLR connector. The Phoenix has the same, it's just a flat connector.

Scott,
a great big thanks for everything you've helped me with...I appreciate it very much!!!!

Going to order a MiniDSP. I would think having 4x 21's and a MiniDSP would be beneficial for my system.
Thanks again...
post #230 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yeah. I'm going brute force with all them JBL's. tongue.gif
So guys.... guys who hate Phoenix connectors....
I found these with a ....simple Google search. I know! Right?!?! tongue.gif
56.jpg
519x218px-LL-f4f993bc_phoenix-to-xlr.PNG
I knew I had seen this before and it was posted by John (LTD02) in another thread about the MiniDSP : http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416852/atte-bosso-mark-seaton-chasw98-et-al#post_22154735
Just search Phoenix to XLR. There were several of them for sale for only a few bucks. But yeah... one shouldn't have to. wink.gif

alright homeslice, but there are also two difference sizes of phoenix connectors, and I have no idea which fits. maybe it is in that link you posted but I am at work and also busy figuring out what to order for some SEOS builds. haha
post #231 of 356
Highly recommend the balanced 2 x 4. The phoenix connectors are so easy to use, it's laughable. If you need, FS, I can take a picture of how I have mine wired. Yours would essentially be the same except where you have 2 sub outs, I only have 1 and I use a "Y" adapter to split the signal.

While I did as Scott did and found those adapters on Google, I wouldn't even bother. Just use normal XLR cables and cut the female ends off. Strip the positive, negative, twist the shield together and screw each into their respective terminal.

One of these and one of these and I was done.
post #232 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Beast,
When I crank the volume (say -20) it feels like I'm getting hit by a sledgehammer from both the front and the back side.
Why wouldn't you feel that When I do, and I'm on Concrete slab too?
Another thing. If I reverse polarity my subs in the back...my whole house vibrates like crazy, but don't get that chest pounding. (That's where I don't still know how I should connect my subs. confused.gif
Is it because my room is small?
Thanks...

Setting up multiple subs can be a pain and sometimes you have to be able to set independent phase (delay) setting's for each sub to get the best performance. Reversing polarity on on your back subs shows that it makes a difference but maybe you just need a 90 degree adjustment in phase instead of the complete 180 of reversing polarity? The MiniDSP or DCX would help as you can set independent polarity and phase settings for each sub, just get both right before applying any EQ and you'll be golden.
You will need measurement equipment to apply EQ, are you going with the Omnimic, REW or XTZ? I cheat and use the SMS-1 to measure and apply EQ inline with a DCX2496, I just find it easier and I already had the SMS-1 so it works out fine for me.

If I had to guess I would say the chest pounding config is the best and once you get a MiniDSP or DCX you can add an LT to boost the low end which will shake the whole house.
post #233 of 356
FS, sorry I missed that last post that mj just quoted. Yea the whole house is probably still vibrating when you are getting that chest pounding bass, you may just not be able to feel it as much due to the greater impact on your hearing. I will definitely agree to the phase issues as well, that should help a lot to get something that doesnt just give you all or nothing. I am about to abandon the fact that I can co-locate all my subs under the screen for a good sound and move the big 18's out and use them as endtables, but they would still be on the same side of the room, about 1/3 of the way back and 3/4 of the way back in the room. Maybe that will change everything.
post #234 of 356
There were extensive discussions (in the main minidsp thread, I think) about using the balanced version to drive pro amps. The unbalanced was some 5 dbs down using regular rca-xlr adapters. That's why I purchased the balanced ones to drive my EP2500. May post the unbalanced in the classifieds in the next couple weeks.
post #235 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VEXXD View Post

Highly recommend the balanced 2 x 4. The phoenix connectors are so easy to use, it's laughable. If you need, FS, I can take a picture of how I have mine wired. Yours would essentially be the same except where you have 2 sub outs, I only have 1 and I use a "Y" adapter to split the signal.
While I did as Scott did and found those adapters on Google, I wouldn't even bother. Just use normal XLR cables and cut the female ends off. Strip the positive, negative, twist the shield together and screw each into their respective terminal.
One of these and one of these and I was done.

Man, thanks so much for this...done!
I'm ordering the balanced and will do this exact thing!
Thank you!
post #236 of 356
Thread Starter 
mjaudio,

thank you for the explanation...
It is a lot louder when all is connected normally. (A LOT LOUDER!)
When I connect reverse polarity in the back I am completely in love with how the low end sounds.
But there's major cancellation in the upper range frequency.
If I move 2 ft forward I then have no bass this way! It cancels out.
turning my head sideways and you feel the cancellation...it's very uncomfortable.

That's the reason I'm asking about the MiniDSP. I'm sure this thing will help me balance it RIGHT!
At least I sure hope so! It's just I have no clue how to use it...it'll be a major learning curve for me.

Beast,

I can assure you that there's a MAJOR difference between my connecting my subs correctly and the reverse method.
When connected reverse in the back, directly above the cinema room everything bounces up and down, it is completely amazing! If you stand above my cinema room you will move up and down ALOT! The floor moves up and down and quit a bit!
It is completely different when connected normal. I can play the music much higher and you will feel it WAY LESS above. It's like it's cancelling each other out BUT outside the room only. sorry for the lack of explanation.

I want the ground shaking version but would also like the chest pounding...Right now it's one or the other.
The chest pounding is so much louder though.
The 2 videos I posted earlier do not have the effect if I DON'T connect it reverse.

wth718,

thank you for that post, it really convinced me to get the balanced version just like VEXXD said so. So Thank you
post #237 of 356
Subs are a lot like real estate, location is everything. Even just something as simple as changing the direction in which the sub fires can make a huge difference. I have been messing with a ported pro sub and with it firing towards the screen I get a really peaky response but by turning the sub so it fires towards the right wall produces a near perfectly flat response. You can make up for some deficiencies of poor sub placement with phase adjustments but placement will make the biggest difference.

There are a lot of info about room acoustics all over the net and some guidelines. GIK acoustics has some info on there site and the owner makes a lot of video's which are helpful. With all that bass power it would be beneficial to read up on room acoustics to help get your bass tuned to your liking, I need to do the same thing.
post #238 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Can tweaking be done over your network vs. having to physically plug your laptop into the DCX2496?
If so, can the same be done with the MiniDSP? Or is that simply too much to ask?
Yes, if you use a network usb hub. They don't cost much. You can get a wireless hub, too.
post #239 of 356
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Yes, if you use a network usb hub. They don't cost much. You can get a wireless hub, too.
I guess I could Google that, but do you have a link to one that you would recommend?
post #240 of 356
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Subs are a lot like real estate, location is everything. Even just something as simple as changing the direction in which the sub fires can make a huge difference. I have been messing with a ported pro sub and with it firing towards the screen I get a really peaky response but by turning the sub so it fires towards the right wall produces a near perfectly flat response. You can make up for some deficiencies of poor sub placement with phase adjustments but placement will make the biggest difference.
There are a lot of info about room acoustics all over the net and some guidelines. GIK acoustics has some info on there site and the owner makes a lot of video's which are helpful. With all that bass power it would be beneficial to read up on room acoustics to help get your bass tuned to your liking, I need to do the same thing.

In the following example below...mine is setup like "B" except they are facing each other like in illustration "A"


I tried all kinds of ways with the 15's but these 21's are to heavy to haul around.
I have also placed it exactly like "B" and there's no difference in my case.

I believe my only option is playing with phase alignment. I really think the MiniDSP is a great solution for me (I hope so!)
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