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My FTW21 Build thread - Page 9

post #241 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:24pm
Thread Starter 
OK then,

Ready to purchase the Balanced MiniDSP and this is what the description says:

************************************************************************************
Package content
Your miniDSP Balanced 2x4 package includes:
• 1 x miniDSP balanced 2x4 in an aluminum enclosure with keyhole mounts
• 1 x miniUSB cable
• All plug-in terminal block connectors required for audio inputs, outputs and DC power
• Step by Step startup guide
************************************************************************************

So no need to buy any of the phoenix plugs, right?
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post #242 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:26pm
Sounds like you really need to measure your room to see what's going on smile.gif

I can attest to minor tweaks in positioning making big differences in response. Initially I had the 2 rear subs facing each other and I had a huge dip at 56Hz. Simply facing the rear subs forward brought the dip up 12dBs.

I really want to dive into the REW and the miniDSP, and once I do, I'll probably post results on my own thread. Right now though, I'm too busy enjoying the system to care.
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post #243 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

OK then,
Ready to purchase the Balanced MiniDSP and this is what the description says:
************************************************************************************
Package content
Your miniDSP Balanced 2x4 package includes:
• 1 x miniDSP balanced 2x4 in an aluminum enclosure with keyhole mounts
• 1 x miniUSB cable
• All plug-in terminal block connectors required for audio inputs, outputs and DC power
• Step by Step startup guide
************************************************************************************
So no need to buy any of the phoenix plugs, right?

Correct, though you will need to buy a 12V power supply as they don't provide one. I had a universal adapter kicking around that I used.
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post #244 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VEXXD View Post

Sounds like you really need to measure your room to see what's going on smile.gif
I can attest to minor tweaks in positioning making big differences in response. Initially I had the 2 rear subs facing each other and I had a huge dip at 56Hz. Simply facing the rear subs forward brought the dip up 12dBs.
I really want to dive into the REW and the miniDSP, and once I do, I'll probably post results on my own thread. Right now though, I'm too busy enjoying the system to care.

I need to learn REW, this would help so much!
Look forward to seeing your results. thanks

I know what you mean with the rears facing each other...my experience was the same.
It sounds better now that they are firing towards the front room.
I'm not moving them anymore. With these I have to seriously consider taking steroids before starting to haul them around biggrin.gif
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post #245 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:49pm
That is one thing I never understood with the MiniDSP, why don't they supply a proper power supply depending on were in the world they are shipping it to? I had a MiniDSP balanced but tried 3 different power supplies and could never get the thing to work right, incredibly frustrating that I eventually gave up.

There is rumors that Parts Express will be carrying the MiniDSP but I have not heard when. I would have to think that PE will supply a suitable power supply, hopefully they are having them build a balanced model that works with normal XLR cables instead of the phoenix connections. I am actually going to wait and see if PE does come out with the MiniDSP as I would expect it to be a more plug and play version instead of the piece meal version you get right now.
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post #246 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

That is one thing I never understood with the MiniDSP, why don't they supply a proper power supply depending on were in the world they are shipping it to? I had a MiniDSP balanced but tried 3 different power supplies and could never get the thing to work right, incredibly frustrating that I eventually gave up.
There is rumors that Parts Express will be carrying the MiniDSP but I have not heard when. I would have to think that PE will supply a suitable power supply, hopefully they are having them build a balanced model that works with normal XLR cables instead of the phoenix connections. I am actually going to wait and see if PE does come out with the MiniDSP as I would expect it to be a more plug and play version instead of the piece meal version you get right now.

Integration with the OmniMic system would be awesome.

The two 'hd' models are pretty well rounded though they need to use phoenix connectors as something like the 10x10hd would require at least 16 XLR in/out so it would have to be larger.
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post #247 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Integration with the OmniMic system would be awesome.
Measure with OmniMic.
Save file as an .frd.
Open REW and import .frd file.
Use REW to generate filters.
Export to the miniDSP.
Easy. wink.gif
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post #248 of 356
10/2/12 at 3:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Integration with the OmniMic system would be awesome.

That would be a big selling point for the Omnimic, PE could offer up a package deal, I have my fingers crossed smile.gif

Quote:
The two 'hd' models are pretty well rounded though they need to use phoenix connectors as something like the 10x10hd would require at least 16 XLR in/out so it would have to be larger.

PE could then offer up compatible phoenix connectors so it could help to eliminate the guess work. If your not to handy with electronics then the MiniDSP can be intimidating, the DCX2496 is much easier to use straight out of the box for a knuckle head like me wink.gif
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post #249 of 356
10/2/12 at 4:04pm
Fatshaft, I'm 100% sure you are getting some nasty cancellation. I've done quite a few audyssey pro installs with setups exactly like your B. Pretty much all but one of them were ummm..... not good because they just placed the subs there and didn't do anything else. I've even went back to a few of the guys places after they bought DCX's and tuned it up for them. Every single one was floored by the difference. It's amazing what a few ms worth of delay and EQ can do.

And as far as people thinking they have something wrong with their systems because their visions weren't blurred lol, you have to accept the fact that most people don't have any experience with systems with mega bass and what they find amazing, we may find to be run of the mill. I used to be into dB drag races in my vehicles. i've many time hit over 150dB's in my old car and have never had blurred vision even sitting in there, yet someone else could not even stand 120dB's. I have a IXL 15 sub in my living room and the Canada Post guy is at my house so often, we've became good friends. He though that 15 was the craziest thing he's ever heard LOL I then proceeded to take him to the HT room and watch him giggle like a little school girl....plus he gets me better rates on packages!!! biggrin.gif
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post #250 of 356
10/2/12 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Fatshaft, I'm 100% sure you are getting some nasty cancellation. I've done quite a few audyssey pro installs with setups exactly like your B. Pretty much all but one of them were ummm..... not good because they just placed the subs there and didn't do anything else. I've even went back to a few of the guys places after they bought DCX's and tuned it up for them. Every single one was floored by the difference. It's amazing what a few ms worth of delay and EQ can do.

When are you coming over to do my setup? biggrin.gif
Please? redface.gif
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post #251 of 356
10/2/12 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post

Measure with OmniMic.
Save file as an .frd.
Open REW and import .frd file.
Use REW to generate filters.
Export to the miniDSP.
Easy. wink.gif

O rly? I'll have to remember that ....but still. Full integration. biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

That would be a big selling point for the Omnimic, PE could offer up a package deal, I have my fingers crossed smile.gif
PE could then offer up compatible phoenix connectors so it could help to eliminate the guess work. If your not to handy with electronics then the MiniDSP can be intimidating, the DCX2496 is much easier to use straight out of the box for a knuckle head like me wink.gif

Sounds like it would be a killer combo.
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post #252 of 356
10/2/12 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I need to learn REW, this would help so much!
Look forward to seeing your results. thanks
I know what you mean with the rears facing each other...my experience was the same.
It sounds better now that they are firing towards the front room.
I'm not moving them anymore. With these I have to seriously consider taking steroids before starting to haul them around biggrin.gif

Of course you could turn your subs around and corner load the $hit out of them... lol I

guarantee you would he able to tell a difference. Not sure if it would be a good or bad difference though...
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post #253 of 356
10/2/12 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Of course you could turn your subs around and corner load the $hit out of them..
If they are already in the corners, simply turning them around will make 2/10th of f... all difference.
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post #254 of 356
10/2/12 at 6:06pm
Fatshaft, you can also try stacking 2 in each corner (when you get the other 2), you'll have more output but "may" loose some flatness. Nothing a little EQ can't fix.
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post #255 of 356
10/2/12 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

If they are already in the corners, simply turning them around will make 2/10th of f... all difference.

Can't say turning them around and slightly moving the away from the wall will yeild the entire 20% f... all that A9X is claiming, but I've tried it myself with my dual LMS-U's, just to test it out, and I noticed a difference... Maybe 10-15% f... all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Fatshaft, you can also try stacking 2 in each corner (when you get the other 2), you'll have more output but "may" loose some flatness. Nothing a little EQ can't fix.

Correct me if I wrong guys, but stacking a pair symmetrically from your listening position should address sound delay as well as phase issues. See lots of people having success with this placement option.
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post #256 of 356
10/2/12 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Can't say turning them around and slightly moving the away from the wall will yeild the entire 20% f... all that A9X is claiming, but I've tried it myself with my dual LMS-U's, just to test it out, and I noticed a difference... Maybe 10-15% f... all.
Placing a speaker in a corner increases output at LF because it decreases the radiation angle to 8th space. Subs are omni within their passband so changing the centre of radiation a slight distance (small fraction of wavelength) will not affect output to any significant extent.
http://www.synaudcon.com/site/author/pat-brown/how-boundaries-affect-loudspeakers/
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post #257 of 356
10/2/12 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Can't say turning them around and slightly moving the away from the wall will yeild the entire 20% f... all that A9X is claiming, but I've tried it myself with my dual LMS-U's, just to test it out, and I noticed a difference... Maybe 10-15% f... all.
Correct me if I wrong guys, but stacking a pair symmetrically from your listening position should address sound delay as well as phase issues. See lots of people having success with this placement option.

Yeah in a smaller room like his the best method would be to place 2 in the corners wether it be front or back. After finding which two corners sounds the best, EQ it to as flat a curve as posible. It will be a tad louder with all four on one wall with 2 in each corner but not as smooth, but the pros would outweigh the cons....phase, delay, cancellation to more smooth of spread out in four corners. I'd start out in the front corners facing the seating. I'm sure someone here that knows how to calculate modes could tell him which is better front/back just by a couple of dimensions.

Length of room
Width of room
seating position from rear/front

Once he gets the mini he should be able to make the room rather smooth and gain a little spl with colocation.

Cant wait till I finish my room and can start measuring and tweeking!!!! Freaking JTR single 8s arent cheap and still need 4 more to complete the 13.12 system. Just hard shelling out $800/speaker on some little 8s but goal is to have them and finish the last 4 columns by Jan.
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post #258 of 356
10/4/12 at 8:06am
Thread Starter 
OK guys,

FedEx just showed up with the 2x replacements...going downstairs and do want i need to do!
Hope all goes well.

PS.
I had done all these trials with the 15's before...stacked in the back ,stacked in the front but at the end of the day the smoothest was 1x per corner.
So I'm sticking with that. I ordered the MiniDSP and will EQ the subs with it to get the smoothest response possible.

Will post when all is up after blasting a couple of songs that I test all the time with and will post my impressions!
biggrin.gif
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post #259 of 356
10/4/12 at 11:28am
Thread Starter 
Well I don't know where to begin.

1st Never in a million years would've I believed that a 4th sub can make such a huge difference in sound!
It DOES!

I've run some tests and am baffled with lots of things!
I'm torn between how to connect these 4 monsters!
With everything connected in phase, There's WAY too much bass! Not enough deep bass
With reverse polarity in the back subs...The deep bass is unbelievable...( I cannot focus the screen with a low bass note hits)
I would also say the output is 1/2 of what in phase is But 4x louder on the deep bass!

I really need the MiniDSP to fix this...it's ordered BTW!

I'm going to leave it as is till I get the MiniDSP cause I am really going crazy going back in forth with the connections.
Some songs sound great in reversed phase and then sound terrible in phase. Others are the opposite.

Another thing I noticed.
With the 10000Q knobs all set @ noon. I can almost clip the lights on the amp at volume -12. I don't understand why so quick!
I really think my Receiver (Harmon Kardon AVR7550HD) has crazy sub output.
My receiver is @ LFE Trim -5 and the LFE output @ -3DB for both .2 outs *That's minus 3DB!!!
At this setting the bass output is truly ridiculous loud in my room!
(I'm convinced that 4x 21's in my room is WAY TOO MUCH!)

Now I really need to tune all my subs...to be honest, I'm not happy with any setup I choice right now. In phase or not.
I'm REALLY hoping the MiniDSP fixes all this.

Well that's it for now and will get back to work and watch a movie tonight.

Regards,
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post #260 of 356
10/4/12 at 11:41am
Trust me.... trust me. It's always better to have too much than too little. It's one of the only effective weapons to use against upgradititus.

You need EQ and delay work. Wait for your MiniDSP. Everyone has to deal with the same issues you're dealing with now.

You're doing good! Keep it up and let's see where you get when the MDSP arrives. smile.gif
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post #261 of 356
10/4/12 at 12:00pm
Dude dont sweat it right now. You dont have ANY Eq capability right so so even though you are using multiple subs around the room, your response will more than likely still need some work. Couple with that the need for delay, which will most CERTAINLY improve your results and you will have a killer system. I forget but do you have an omnimic or anything to test your response? Looking at 4 drivers and that setup, you are more than likely still running really hot in the sub range, but that is the beauty of multiples smile.gif
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post #262 of 356
10/4/12 at 12:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Trust me.... trust me. It's always better to have too much than too little. It's one of the only effective weapons to use against upgradititus.
You need EQ and delay work. Wait for your MiniDSP. Everyone has to deal with the same issues you're dealing with now.
You're doing good! Keep it up and let's see where you get when the MDSP arrives. smile.gif

Thanks Scott...

One thing I'm pretty sure of and mark my words "There's no way I'll be upgrading my subs...EVER!" wink.gif
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post #263 of 356
10/4/12 at 12:01pm
Dang Scott, quicker on the trigger as usual.
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post #264 of 356
10/4/12 at 12:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Looking at 4 drivers and that setup, you are more than likely still running really hot in the sub range, but that is the beauty of multiples smile.gif

Is there any other way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I forget but do you have an omnimic or anything to test your response?

Have no such equipment redface.gif
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post #265 of 356
10/4/12 at 12:59pm
Well, with the AVR you can still drop the Sub trim below 3db's. I know the miniDSP has boost, so Im sure it has cut as well on the overall output, but I dont know for certain. Your gains on the amp are still at 1/2 so you can knock those down as well.

Do you have an SPL meter or audyssey on your AVR? I would highly suggest getting at least a good ole Radio Shack SPL meter to make sure you arent completely overrunning your subs. The omnimic is truly priceless for the DIY'er though and at a pricetag of $250 bucks or so, it is WELL worth the investment.
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post #266 of 356
10/4/12 at 1:06pm
I'd love to grab an Omnimic, but it would be $350+ by the time we get it to Canada.

RS meter + REW is a great entry point, imo. Definitely need something though...
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post #267 of 356
10/4/12 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by VEXXD View Post

I'd love to grab an Omnimic, but it would be $350+ by the time we get it to Canada.
Mic from Cross Spectrum about $100. Xenyx 502 $CA45. REW free.
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post #268 of 356
10/4/12 at 3:37pm
Fatshaft, stack your subs 2 in each front or rear corner. Just try it..... also the 4th sub, if it's 1 in each corner shouldn't make much if any difference other than smoothing out your response. If you stack them together, be prepared to blow the house down.
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post #269 of 356
10/4/12 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Thanks Scott...
One thing I'm pretty sure of and mark my words "There's no way I'll be upgrading my subs...EVER!" wink.gif

Mhmmm. wink.gif

*after reading this next post*



Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

Fatshaft, stack your subs 2 in each front or rear corner. Just try it..... also the 4th sub, if it's 1 in each corner shouldn't make much if any difference other than smoothing out your response. If you stack them together, be prepared to blow the house down.

"Hey guys. I was able to get all four 21's up front and stacked as suggested. OMFGWTFBBQSPL!!!!! No kidding the house be blown down. Holy crap! Truely blown away but still have some frequency response issues. I think I still need some subs in back but what's going to keep up with these monsters?

Soooo, I ordered four UXL18's to use in back."

biggrin.gif

I can see it now. tongue.gif

It is a great idea! I know. wink.gif
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post #270 of 356
10/4/12 at 4:07pm
LOL Scott!!!! I have my 4 21's all located very close. It's ummmmm....... awesome? YA IT IS!! lol
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