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My FTW21 Build thread - Page 11

post #301 of 356
10/10/12 at 7:47am
Thread Starter 
baniels,

thanks so much...wow did not know that I had to buy a plugin...now...

I check the plugins and am a little more lost than ever.
I noticed they do phase delay = Good!
Noticed they do polarity inversion = Good BUT it ONLY reverses 180 degree.

I need it to be able to do 90 degree...I thought this was adjustable.

Have no idea which one to get now redface.gif
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post #302 of 356
10/10/12 at 8:33am
Maybe you can get around the phase limitation by adjusting delay for each channel? You can set a relative output delay of up to 15ms per channel (a range of -7.5ms to +7.5ms).

Either of the two I listed before should work. The 2.1 just adds the ability to sum two of the outputs - but you can turn it off and it behaves like the 2-way. Don't forget - it is cheap to correct if you want to use a different filter later on in life.
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post #303 of 356
10/10/12 at 9:32am
Adjust the delays. "Phase" doesn't fix time alignment issues.
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post #304 of 356
10/10/12 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

baniels,
thanks so much...wow did not know that I had to buy a plugin...now...
I check the plugins and am a little more lost than ever.
I noticed they do phase delay = Good!
Noticed they do polarity inversion = Good BUT it ONLY reverses 180 degree.
I need it to be able to do 90 degree...I thought this was adjustable.
Have no idea which one to get now redface.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Adjust the delays. "Phase" doesn't fix time alignment issues.

Right. Changing the 'phase' is changing the polarity. Sometimes you just need a simple flip and that's what the polarity switch is for.

Get the 4-way Advanced plug-in.
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post #305 of 356
10/10/12 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Right. Changing the 'phase' is changing the polarity. Sometimes you just need a simple flip and that's what the polarity switch is for.
Get the 4-way Advanced plug-in.

thanks...I ordered the 4-way.

I'm presently trying my subs in the back stacked and was wondering if I got this right re: connecting my 10000Q in bridge mode.

My subs are connected in series for an 8 ohm load per channel.
I'm ok with the dip switches but from what I read it seems that I need to connect the positive of the sub to the positive of channel1 out and the negative of the sub to the negative of channel2?

Is this right?

Thanks
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post #306 of 356
10/10/12 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Noticed they do polarity inversion = Good BUT it ONLY reverses 180 degree.
That's what polarity is.
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post #307 of 356
10/10/12 at 1:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

That's what polarity is.

Thanks

I'm having difficulty connecting in bridge mode...
This is what it says in the manual:

7.4.5 Output bridge mode
It is possible to bridge channels in two-channel versions,
or in pairs of two (A+B and C+D) in four-channel
versions. When bridged, the input source must be
connected to input A (A+B) or C (C+D) respectively.
Output speaker cables must be connected to the
plus pole on channel A or C and the minus pole on
B or D.

I have it connected to channel 1 + on +1 and - on -2 This works but am not sure if it's correct.

Above It reads to connect the - to-1 on channel 2?
I have not tried that yet but does that make sense?

thanks
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post #308 of 356
10/10/12 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post


I'm having difficulty connecting in bridge mode...
This is what it says in the manual:
What are you trying to bridge, and which manual are you referring to (link pls)?
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post #309 of 356
10/10/12 at 2:47pm
Thread Starter 
I'm attaching the manual...
Thanks

I'm trying to bridge my 10000Q 4 channel amp to 2 channel output.
I think I got it but have no idea if my output is bridged power or not.

FP+_Operation_Manual.pdf 3293k .pdf file
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post #310 of 356
10/10/12 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

I'm attaching the manual...
Thanks
I'm trying to bridge my 10000Q 4 channel amp to 2 channel output.
I think I got it but have no idea if my output is bridged power or not.
FP+_Operation_Manual.pdf 3293k .pdf file
Thanks. Initially, I thought you were referring to the MD.

OK, from reading the manual. Connect inputs to channels A and C, and connect outputs (see fig 7.4.3b) to the Speakons A+B and C+D. Speakons should be wired as per 7.4.3c, bottom illustration.
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post #311 of 356
10/10/12 at 4:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Thanks. Initially, I thought you were referring to the MD.
OK, from reading the manual. Connect inputs to channels A and C, and connect outputs (see fig 7.4.3b) to the Speakons A+B and C+D. Speakons should be wired as per 7.4.3c, bottom illustration.

Thank you!!! It works!!! I was afraid to start it up and it's working! biggrin.gif

Ok now the quick test...
I stacked the 21's in the back. They are connected in series for an 8 ohm load!
Fired up the THX Demo and am completely FREAKIN' OUT!

All you guys that said to try them stacked! OMFG it is completely insane in my room!
I thought it was hitting hard but man this way should be illegal!!!!
I think I'm in shock right now! My daughter was in the room with me and she's freakin' out too!


I cannot believe:
1. How much more output there is
2. How much better my overall sound is, especially the front stage!
3. The clarity of my front speakers has dramatically improved! so much more...more voice, more highs, more dynamic range!
4. How much the sound feels like it's coming from the front!
5. How much more volume I can crank. I went to -4DB on the receiver volume. I NEVER did that EVER!!!!
6. How much more volume the subs can take

I'm convinced that my rooms dimensions/layout has thought me that I have no choice to leave it this way!
I'm blown away by these subs (Mark, Thank you for making these!)...I remember having it this way with the 15's and never thought I can get so much more bass! But I do!
I now wish I had the FP14000 instead!

WOW!!!
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post #312 of 356
10/10/12 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Thank you!!! It works!!! I was afraid to start it up and it's working! biggrin.gif
Glad to help.
Just to clarify as I'm not sure from your response, do you like them?

I was going to get the ply for mine tomorrow, but we'll see what the weather is like (storms forecast), otherwise Monday.
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post #313 of 356
10/10/12 at 4:58pm
I like my subs in the back also. When properly setup, you can't even tell the bass is coming from back there. Gotta love the impact! biggrin.gif
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post #314 of 356
10/10/12 at 6:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Well the 4 cabs are done...
Put caulking on the inside of the cabs where the speakon is to make sure it's sealed properly.
IMG_9154.jpg
Last 2 cabs done and approved by Kami.
IMG_9161.jpg
Now I wait and can't wait to see how my Double layer Sheetrock with Hat Channel and Green Glue hold up!
My front satge is completely filled with sand and so is my riser! (3 tons of sand in all)
My room is completely sealed and soundproofed. The upstairs already vibrates pretty good with the 15's cranking along...
I can't imagine what 4x 21's will do eek.gif
Having the cabs all done is making this waiting very painful.
I got an email from Mark yesterday saying that he thinks he'll be done by the end of next week with my drivers.
So I guess I have at least 2 weeks or more of waiting.
My only beef is, I was told 2 1/2 weeks but it will be more like 5 weeks.
It seems double what is said is the norm.
Can't wait to play them... biggrin.gif

good looking cat. i really want one like that...kind of spendy(for a cat) around here though. I also feel bad if I get a pet from somewhere other than a shelter. i might break that though to pick a cat like that up one of these days.
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post #315 of 356
10/10/12 at 7:18pm
Glad you finally did it! No need in trying to get a smoother response when you have so much displacement in a small room as long as you have EQ and seats arent in a dead zone.

Glad you finally let them move as well. Told ya there was much more to go ;-)

Now time for 6 more?
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post #316 of 356
10/10/12 at 8:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Thank you!!! It works!!! I was afraid to start it up and it's working! biggrin.gif
Ok now the quick test...
I stacked the 21's in the back. They are connected in series for an 8 ohm load!
Fired up the THX Demo and am completely FREAKIN' OUT!
All you guys that said to try them stacked! OMFG it is completely insane in my room!
I thought it was hitting hard but man this way should be illegal!!!!
I think I'm in shock right now! My daughter was in the room with me and she's freakin' out too!
I cannot believe:
1. How much more output there is
2. How much better my overall sound is, especially the front stage!
3. The clarity of my front speakers has dramatically improved! so much more...more voice, more highs, more dynamic range!
4. How much the sound feels like it's coming from the front!
5. How much more volume I can crank. I went to -4DB on the receiver volume. I NEVER did that EVER!!!!
6. How much more volume the subs can take
I'm convinced that my rooms dimensions/layout has thought me that I have no choice to leave it this way!
I'm blown away by these subs (Mark, Thank you for making these!)...I remember having it this way with the 15's and never thought I can get so much more bass! But I do!
I now wish I had the FP14000 instead!
WOW!!!

smile.gif
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post #317 of 356
10/10/12 at 9:50pm
Have you hooked them up to all 4 channels as well in the new placements? Curious about youre observations on output bridged vs stereo as I still havent tried it.
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post #318 of 356
10/10/12 at 10:15pm
I thought I would share something an owner of an authorized repair center for most major pro amp's told me a few months back. He said that the highest failure rate is bridged amps as opposed to the same amp in a venue that is running stereo. I asked him why that would be the case but either he did not know or did not care (for him a fried amp is money in his pocket from the repair) he just told me that if I want my amps to last a long time just run them in stereo and skip bridged operation. I have never actually fried an amp running bridged but did running stereo but that was a bonehead move by me to burn out that amp which he repaired perfectly.

Thilo from TC Sounds also once told me to drive each 2 ohm coil of a LMS Ultra with the amp in stereo instead of running the 2 coils in series for a 4ohm load and bridging the amp. I can't remember exactly the reason for it as I had already wired up the subs and was not about to take them out and add another binding post. He just said there were a lot of benefits to running the amp this way and I am pretty sure he said the amp would be more reliable as well.

Just thought I would pass on some advice I got from 2 really knowledgeable people, the stereo vs bridged convo sparked my memory.
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post #319 of 356
10/10/12 at 11:46pm
I know there are differences between car amps and pro amps but when I was into DB drag races my installer/dealer always ran my stuff bridged. I never had a problem but always had ample voltage with multiple batteries, capacitors, and altinators. Dont know if power sources made a difference to the amps or not but just giving as much info as can.

I wonder why running 8 ohm bridged would be any more stressful than running 4 ohm stereo? I'm sure there reasons, so just curious.
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post #320 of 356
10/11/12 at 6:15am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Glad to help.
Just to clarify as I'm not sure from your response, do you like them?

Yes wink.gif
Quote:
I was going to get the ply for mine tomorrow, but we'll see what the weather is like (storms forecast), otherwise Monday.
Good luck with that and hope you enjoy them too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

I like my subs in the back also. When properly setup, you can't even tell the bass is coming from back there. Gotta love the impact! biggrin.gif

You were right N8, stacked rules in my case and the impact is insane!
I just love when I close my eyes and all the sound is in the front...it amazes me!
I can't wait to play with the MiniDSP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

good looking cat. i really want one like that...kind of spendy(for a cat) around here though. I also feel bad if I get a pet from somewhere other than a shelter. i might break that though to pick a cat like that up one of these days.

Thanks, There's, I believe 3 types of Highland Lynx cats. the one I have are the rarest of them all. (No tail whatsoever)
I would be surprised if you found one at a shelter and plus you'd be paying 4 times the price then buying from an individual.
My vet has been in the industry for 25+ years and he never saw one till he saw ours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Glad you finally did it! No need in trying to get a smoother response when you have so much displacement in a small room as long as you have EQ and seats arent in a dead zone.

You see this is the thing now...
I have deader zone if I may. I have 3 seats in the front and 2 seats in the back.
The middle front seat is where I'm at and it sounds the best there. Next to me, left or right, there's a significant amount of bass being lost. I'd say about 25%. BUT in the back, it is too much and overpowers the rest of the sound. Watching a movie (Action) from the back would be painful for sure.

Quote:
Glad you finally let them move as well. Told ya there was much more to go ;-)

Yes, absolutely correct! AVH, let me tell you that there's SOO much more this way...It's really stupid the amount of pounding and trembling in the room.

Quote:
Now time for 6 more?
I 'm open to suggestions!

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Have you hooked them up to all 4 channels as well in the new placements? Curious about youre observations on output bridged vs stereo as I still havent tried it.

I'm curious about this too but I cannot try it because I only have one set of speaker wire running per corner.
Sorry about that...it's too much trouble for me to run a pair of wires from the fronts to the back just to try it.

Now I'm curious to see what effect this has to my upstairs table biggrin.gif
I'll be checking it out today and maybe post a video wink.gif
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post #321 of 356
10/11/12 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

I know there are differences between car amps and pro amps but when I was into DB drag races my installer/dealer always ran my stuff bridged. I never had a problem but always had ample voltage with multiple batteries, capacitors, and altinators. Dont know if power sources made a difference to the amps or not but just giving as much info as can.
I wonder why running 8 ohm bridged would be any more stressful than running 4 ohm stereo? I'm sure there reasons, so just curious.

To be honest I still don't get it but I guess it is like a mechanic that continually has cars come in that break down when driven a particular way, his advice would probably be to not drive it that way.

I have heard other things about why bridging is not the best way to run an amp but I have never really got why that is the case. Maybe because people tend to bridge amps to run a system hard that it leads to reduced reliability?
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post #322 of 356
10/11/12 at 9:33am
I am a little interested in the benefits of stacking subs, versus have them both beside each other in a corner, or if the box is deep like mine (36") if that puts the sub too far from the corner in the first place...not to thread jack, but seems several folks around here have already experienced this, so I have no idea. I really just need to take a night and start shoving my subs all over my theater with some additional speaker wire. Might be an eye opening experience!!!
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post #323 of 356
10/11/12 at 4:05pm
Fatshaft what was your net volume?(rough estimate)

Mine were about 5.5cuft but I did make them 32" tall so I could keep the depth at about 18". I still have to wait another six months for my second pair of 21s.(IA DP 21s)
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post #324 of 356
10/12/12 at 12:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Fatshaft what was your net volume?(rough estimate)
Mine were about 5.5cuft but I did make them 32" tall so I could keep the depth at about 18". I still have to wait another six months for my second pair of 21s.(IA DP 21s)

Beast you must try it....I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I'm still in awe about it here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Fatshaft what was your net volume?(rough estimate)
Mine were about 5.5cuft but I did make them 32" tall so I could keep the depth at about 18". I still have to wait another six months for my second pair of 21s.(IA DP 21s)

It's on the very first post...My boxes give me a 6.236cuft.
Enjoy your monsters...I am.
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post #325 of 356
10/12/12 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post

Have you hooked them up to all 4 channels as well in the new placements? Curious about youre observations on output bridged vs stereo as I still havent tried it.

I now have a favor to ask you audiovideoholic...
I have been playing here for a couple of days now and am convinced that these amps in bridge mode is ALOT better than running them in 4 channel mode.

1st of all...I can run my subs harder with them connected in bridge mode.
I'll explain...
In 4 channel mode with the amp settings @ 3 oclock, I was close to clipping with my volume at -15.
In bridge mode with the amp settings @ 3 oclock, I was close to clipping with my volume at -5 and still had some room left.
This is of course with the same song and other test materials I use.

I'm wanting to know if you can try it at your end to see if you get similar results.

I know some folks here are pretty anal about this stuff (as previously seen in other threads)
I do not have testing materials and do not have any graphs so my apology to everyone in advance.
What I do have is ONLY my ears to go by...with that being said.

I think the 10000Q is a fantastic amp in bridge mode...I can crank her higher than in normal 4 channel mode and am wondering if my unit is a fluke one!
This of course with the same load!

Would you mind trying connecting 4 of your subs (2 in series x 2) for an 8 ohm load per channel in bridge mode?
I think you'll be surprised!

Thanks in advance
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post #326 of 356
10/12/12 at 12:57pm
Did you run the amp in 4 channel mode when the subs were in different parts of the room and only bridged when they were stacked all in the back?

You get a 6db gain by co-locating subs so the amp will not have to work as hard to achieve the same level. This gain applies whether you have it running in 4 channel or bridged mode.
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post #327 of 356
10/12/12 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Did you run the amp in 4 channel mode when the subs were in different parts of the room and only bridged when they were stacked all in the back?
You get a 6db gain by co-locating subs so the amp will not have to work as hard to achieve the same level. This gain applies whether you have it running in 4 channel or bridged mode.
I was wondering the same thing.
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post #328 of 356
10/12/12 at 2:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjaudio View Post

Did you run the amp in 4 channel mode when the subs were in different parts of the room and only bridged when they were stacked all in the back?

Yes, that's exactly what I did...

Quote:
You get a 6db gain by co-locating subs so the amp will not have to work as hard to achieve the same level. This gain applies whether you have it running in 4 channel or bridged mode.

Yes, I realize the 6db gain thing but that's not what I was talking about.
I realize that I have more output when they are stacked and it's no different to when I had the 15's this same way.

What is puzzling is that when running the subs in bridge mode I can apply more volume BEFORE the clip lights come on.
If I reconnect one sub per channel at the same settings (10000Q) there's no way I can put my volume at -5DB. I'd be major clipping that way.

This is what I don't understand.
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post #329 of 356
10/12/12 at 2:03pm
Doesn't the gain sensitivity change when going from stereo to bridged with an amplifier?
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post #330 of 356
10/12/12 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatshaft View Post

Yes, that's exactly what I did...

Yes, I realize the 6db gain thing but that's not what I was talking about.
I realize that I have more output when they are stacked and it's no different to when I had the 15's this same way.
What is puzzling is that when running the subs in bridge mode I can apply more volume BEFORE the clip lights come on.
If I reconnect one sub per channel at the same settings (10000Q) there's no way I can put my volume at -5DB. I'd be major clipping that way.
This is what I don't understand.

The amp should clip more easily when the subs are separated as it needs twice the power to achieve the same levels you get when they are co-located.
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