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Sony HMZ-T2 Personal 3D Viewer HMD Dedicated Thread - Page 2

post #31 of 1012
8/31/12 at 7:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Do you feel like you're in IMAX cinema? If yes, then it's big enough. biggrin.gif

Never been to imax but it feels big enough.

Dont forget that because its an HMD you dont have the feeling of regular screen where you see the borders and can calculate the distance from the walls and other objects which makes you feel the size (that kind of happens automatically in real life when you look at objects)
But with HMD you only see the screen and darkness on sides...

As I said you need to see it for yourself...

I got one without testing and never touched it before I ordered one and im happy
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post #32 of 1012
8/31/12 at 7:17pm
i have the hmz-T1 and it feel to me the screen is about 100inch which is quite big for me.
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post #33 of 1012
8/31/12 at 9:02pm
Can anyone confirm whether the original T1 did 1080/24p? Its advertised specs certainly say it did. If so, the '24p True Cinema' is not a new feature at all -- if it's anything new, it's probably some kind of interpolation that makes things worse anyway.

I also don't understand the 'clear mode' for gaming. It would make sense if it was removing the processing and thereby reducing input lag, but the description makes it seem like it adds more processing. I mean, there's no reason why there should be any blur on OLED displays to begin with.

I'm starting to think it might be worthwhile just buying the T1 while it's cheaper rather than waiting for the T2, and just modding it so I can use my own headphones, adjust the lenses properly etc. Particularly since I'm in Australia, which didn't even get the T1 until Feb-March this year.

I guess we won't know whether there are any real image quality/lag improvements until someone actually tests it properly.
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post #34 of 1012
9/1/12 at 2:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

60-75" is damn small. Anyone can confirm that?
I haven't tried one of these things yet, but in theory, the image should appear to be further away the further apart the displays are. And the size of the "screen" should appear to increase in size the same way.
For example, if the displays are exactly as far apart as your eyes, and the displays show the exact same image (i.e. 2D), the line-of-sight from each eye to an object in the image will be parallell and never converge at any distance, basically giving the impression that the screen is infinitely far away and infinitely big. In theory...
Maybe this explains the different screen sizes people report?
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post #35 of 1012
9/1/12 at 4:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoisonWolf View Post

So what's the actual "size" so to speak with these head mounted display?
On Amazon, it's stating that it's a 150-inch "screen". equivalent....which I find very hard to believe. I've seen some people say it's like 60 ~ 75 inches.
Can anyone provide some insight into this?
The apparent image was much smaller than my 46″ LCD from my regular viewing distance. (about 3–4ft away)

I would estimate the image size to be more like a 32″ set compared to my 46″ one at the distance I sit, though it did feel like I was maybe a bit further back from the screen, perhaps 5–6ft, so that would make it roughly equivalent to a 60″ panel at that distance. They need at least a 60º FOV before the image starts to become cinematic, and part of the attraction for me was that it was supposed to feel like you were sitting far back from a big screen, rather than up close with a smaller one.

Depending on the size of display people own, and the distance they sit from it, people’s perceptions will be different, but it did not feel like I was looking at a large image from a distance. It looked like I was viewing a small image up close. Here are my initial impressions of it: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1371946/sony-hmz-t1-hmd-owners-dedicated-thread/1170#post_21289580. Not sure if I posted more there, the forum search isn’t working for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syllogistic View Post

Can anyone confirm whether the original T1 did 1080/24p? Its advertised specs certainly say it did. If so, the '24p True Cinema' is not a new feature at all -- if it's anything new, it's probably some kind of interpolation that makes things worse anyway.
This confused me as well, as I was under the impression the HMZ-T1 supported 24Hz. I didn’t keep mine long enough because it was incredibly uncomfortable and the image too small, so I was did not spend the time verify whether it had proper 1080p24 support, or was converting it to 60Hz internally.

I did find movement to suffer from considerable judder, whether it’s running at 24p or not. Sony’s interpolation is actually rather good. It avoids the sped-up “soap opera” look that a lot of algorithms introduce. I would not complain if they had that as an option on the HMZ-T2 to help reduce judder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syllogistic View Post

I also don't understand the 'clear mode' for gaming. It would make sense if it was removing the processing and thereby reducing input lag, but the description makes it seem like it adds more processing. I mean, there's no reason why there should be any blur on OLED displays to begin with.
It’s definitely confusing. Sony has a “Clear” mode for its MotionFlow Interpolation on its HDTVs, but that is something you absolutely do not want when gaming. I have to imagine that it is a low-latency mode and just a very poor choice in naming the feature. (probably different departments that don’t talk with each other, as is common with Sony)

OLED does not have perfect motion handling however. It is still a sample-and-hold type display, and suffers from motion blur if you don’t use any interpolation or black-frame-insertion to reduce persistence on the retina.
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post #36 of 1012
9/1/12 at 5:08am
Yes, there certainly seems to be a lot of marketing speak in the feature descriptions and not much about what the features actually are. The few hands-on impressions I saw from IFA (eg Engadget) didn't go into any depth at all, and it seems like they either didn't ask or weren't told by Sony specifically what the improvements are over the T1. A lower latency mode would definitely be a reason for me to wait, as would proper judder-free 24p if the T1 didn't have it, and the lack of built-in headphones and independent lens adjustments would save the effort of modding. On the other hand, Sony Australia tells me they have no availability or pricing info here so I would guess we're not going to see it until next year and possibly for a higher price. So it's either get the T1 now or try to import a T2 from the US or Japan if I want it before Christmas.

Hopefully they might show it at CEDIA next week and give some more details, though I'm not holding my breath.
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post #37 of 1012
9/1/12 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

The apparent image was much smaller than my 46″ LCD from my regular viewing distance. (about 3–4ft away)
I would estimate the image size to be more like a 32″ set compared to my 46″ one at the distance I sit, though it did feel like I was maybe a bit further back from the screen, perhaps 5–6ft, so that would make it roughly equivalent to a 60″ panel at that distance. They need at least a 60º FOV before the image starts to become cinematic, and part of the attraction for me was that it was supposed to feel like you were sitting far back from a big screen, rather than up close with a smaller one.
Depending on the size of display people own, and the distance they sit from it, people’s perceptions will be different, but it did not feel like I was looking at a large image from a distance. It looked like I was viewing a small image up close. Here are my initial impressions of it: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1371946/sony-hmz-t1-hmd-owners-dedicated-thread/1170#post_21289580. Not sure if I posted more there, the forum search isn’t working for me.
This confused me as well, as I was under the impression the HMZ-T1 supported 24Hz. I didn’t keep mine long enough because it was incredibly uncomfortable and the image too small, so I was did not spend the time verify whether it had proper 1080p24 support, or was converting it to 60Hz internally.
I did find movement to suffer from considerable judder, whether it’s running at 24p or not. Sony’s interpolation is actually rather good. It avoids the sped-up “soap opera” look that a lot of algorithms introduce. I would not complain if they had that as an option on the HMZ-T2 to help reduce judder.
It’s definitely confusing. Sony has a “Clear” mode for its MotionFlow Interpolation on its HDTVs, but that is something you absolutely do not want when gaming. I have to imagine that it is a low-latency mode and just a very poor choice in naming the feature. (probably different departments that don’t talk with each other, as is common with Sony)
OLED does not have perfect motion handling however. It is still a sample-and-hold type display, and suffers from motion blur if you don’t use any interpolation or black-frame-insertion to reduce persistence on the retina.

Thanks for your explanation Chrono. I'll keep my money and wait for the next iteration then. No point buying technology when it's still in its infancy.

Maybe next year we'll have 0.8 or 0.9-inch OLEDs with 1080p screens? Lol.

Cheers mate.
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post #38 of 1012
9/1/12 at 4:36pm
i do not know how long am i gonna resist the temptation to buy T2 as st1080 from SMD the only serious competitor has failed miserably mad.gif
The SMD is making excuses every now and then for delay in shipment as their panel quality / optics - everything sucks! - leaving the T1/T2 undisputed to say the least.
So i guess i will wait for reviews on T2 and buy it if everything is ok smile.gif
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post #39 of 1012
9/2/12 at 2:42am
I'm very undecided if i should buy a projector or the HMZ T2. I'm leaning towards the HMZ, because if i go the projector route, i won't be able to get a bigger diagonal than 80", at most 90" (from 10 feet away), and most probably i will get a 720P LED projector (because everything else is too expensive for me, and i also don't want to add extra heat into my room -> very hot in summer here). The projector also complicates things, as i have to make room for the screen. And it's not very portable...

I'm waiting for some user reviews of the new T2 version, to see if the optics got better (among other things). If not, i'm willing to mod it, as some users have done with the first HMZ revision, but what it can't be fixed is the perceived screen size, and that's where my worries currently are, as they're so many conflicting and radically different opinions on this subject. I don't understand how some people see a much smaller screen than others. Some report 80",90" or 100" , others, like Chronoptimis above, say it felt like 46" or even smaller.
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post #40 of 1012
9/2/12 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG25 View Post

I won't be able to get a bigger diagonal than 80", at most 90" (from 10 feet away).

On the last tab of the Sony page linked on the first page of this thread, you can see the following description for virtual screen size:

750 inch in 20m distance

which equals

A 750 inch screen at 65.62 feet

Now if you divide both amounts by 6.562, you get a 114.3 inches at 10ft which is what your perceived screen size will be in your HT setting.

What people perceive it at is inconsequential as it is not a variable and perceptions are psychosomatic anyway as they know they are wearing a device so the brain perceives it as a smaller screen.
Keep in mind that if you go the projector route, you will have to wear glasses for 3D which might have the same effect on you anyway.

HTH smile.gif
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post #41 of 1012
9/2/12 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG25 View Post

I don't understand how some people see a much smaller screen than others. Some report 80",90" or 100" , others, like Chronoptimis above, say it felt like 46" or even smaller.
I just gave an explanation above. Post #34.
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post #42 of 1012
9/2/12 at 11:16am
i posted an example on reddit some weeks ago. the hmd virtual screen is very big, really. because of lacking any disturbing 'content' like some random people in imax, you keep in focus all the time.
but if you think about upcoming oculus rift.. hmz-t1 might appear small indeed.
U3XRsh.jpg
How I play BF3

MwT3xh.jpg
Out of box this device is pain to use, so I made a little modification using hard hat. Looks cheap, works great!

Qv6Y3h.jpg
My point of view when playing using Iiyama 27 screen - notice distracting keyboard, desk, wall etc.

2R3xRh.jpg
My POV when I have my HMZ-T1 on and playing in 3D mode. Super immersive due to two OLED screens!

d1Gkyh.jpg
Playing on HMZ-T1 is super immersive. Althought its resolution is lower (720p compared to 1080p monitor) it provides unforgettable experience! The screen is huge and nothing around distract you - your eyesight see only the screen and a bit of black border.

It's like sitting in cinema!

czyXB.png
Edited by kixpress - 9/2/12 at 11:25am
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post #43 of 1012
9/2/12 at 1:03pm
Wow, thanks for the pictures. If that's how you really see it (i was also wondering about the black borders, ie how large or small they are, compared to the screen), then i think i won't be disappointed.

The Oculus Rift is also very interesting, but they're missing movie viewing support and they are low resolution. And not to mention they will need serious support from big AAA developers, in order to succeed. Too many things that need to be addressed and it will take years, imo. That being said, when Doom 4 will arrive, i'm buying one. biggrin.gif
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post #44 of 1012
9/2/12 at 2:25pm
Thanks for that kixpress. Interesting how different people perceive these things so differently.

Can you tell us a bit more about how you find PC gaming with the T1? Do you notice input lag? Do you notice the lower resolution compared with a PC monitor? Do you have any bluriness issues? PC gaming is one of the main uses I would have for the T1/T2 so I'm interested to know how it fares.

Thanks.
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post #45 of 1012
9/2/12 at 2:45pm
gaming on pc is very immersive, you can tweak many settings unlike on console.
you can notice that is it lower resolution, but it's not that big of a problem. of course 1080p+ would be even better, but that is the technology limit.
input lag? well it really depends on your mouse/keyboard, there is literally no lag, but if you are used to 120 hz like me, you will notice that oled is only 60 hz.. some games like crysis look very very smooth on both!
bluriness is an issue at the very beginning after the mod, soon your eyes get used to the screen and you start to see more.
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post #46 of 1012
9/2/12 at 7:54pm
to me the most immersive games on on ps3 using HMZ-T1 is Wipeout HD and Stardust HD this games make u feel like u in virtual game world.
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post #47 of 1012
9/2/12 at 10:54pm
As far as 1080p24 on the HMZ-T1.. I can confirm that it can accept and process a 1080p24 signal. For example, the input being passed in shows up as 1080p24 in one of the internal menus. We know it must down-convert to 720p. The question is whether or not it does 720p24 or if just does the 3:2 to go to 720p60. I have no idea.
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post #48 of 1012
9/2/12 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoisonWolf View Post

So what's the actual "size" so to speak with these head mounted display?
On Amazon, it's stating that it's a 150-inch "screen". equivalent....which I find very hard to believe. I've seen some people say it's like 60 ~ 75 inches.
Can anyone provide some insight into this?

I've tried it out a few times at the Sony store and I'd say 150" sounds about right (I have a 133" screen with my projector). However, due to the very obvious pixels of the panels a mere inch or so from your eyes, your brain has a hard time convincing itself that you are watching a huge screen. It's a shame they didn't update this to 1080p panels...
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post #49 of 1012
9/3/12 at 1:53am
Quote:
However, due to the very obvious pixels of the panels a mere inch or so from your eyes, your brain has a hard time convincing itself that you are watching a huge screen.
How big the pixels appear to look like? Can you compare it to something else? An 720P, 100", projector, from 10 feet, perhaps? Or a big LCD TV viewed from up close? For example, i'm currently using my 42" LCD TV as a PC monitor from no more than 3-3.5 feet and i have a hard time seeing the individual pixels (but on the other hand, i know the image is not as sleek as on a regular, smaller, full hd pc monitor, due to the lower DPI on the TV).

Can you really, really see the individual pixels (ie, can you count them on a row smile.gif )? Or it's more like an impression of the general image quality, like when you compare an HD TV next to a Full HD Tv, both having the same diagonal and viewed from the same distance?
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post #50 of 1012
9/3/12 at 4:36am
i can honestly say you can't see individual pixels.

see this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1371946/sony-hmz-t1-hmd-owners-dedicated-thread/2670#post_22017112
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post #51 of 1012
9/3/12 at 5:04am
I read that post, but the person who you quoted said he was watching a 3D movie (1080P, blu ray?), not a game. What you said there is only true for console gaming.
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post #52 of 1012
9/3/12 at 8:21am
Hmz-1 was detected as 72" on the xbox 360 and ps3 cool.gif

How heavy was the hmz-1 vs the new one?
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post #53 of 1012
9/3/12 at 8:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaktmestern View Post

Hmz-1 was detected as 72" on the xbox 360 and ps3 cool.gif
How heavy was the hmz-1 vs the new one?

Ignore this, set it as lower as you can.

the size affects the 3d effect, the lower the size the stronger the 3d effect.

In 3D TV's is somewhat important to set the proper size because small size gets stronger 3D effect and on large TV you can see ghosting.

But HMZ is 2 separate screens so no ghosting artifacts, you can set the screen size to the allowed minimum for better 3D.
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post #54 of 1012
9/3/12 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViruzzX View Post

Ignore this, set it as lower as you can.
the size affects the 3d effect, the lower the size the stronger the 3d effect.
In 3D TV's is somewhat important to set the proper size because small size gets stronger 3D effect and on large TV you can see ghosting.
But HMZ is 2 separate screens so no ghosting artifacts, you can set the screen size to the allowed minimum for better 3D.

Oh. This is the reason for 3D screen size setting. Thanks!
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post #55 of 1012
9/4/12 at 2:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex76 View Post

Oh. This is the reason for 3D screen size setting. Thanks!

Yes, it works with a 3D TV.

It would be nice if you could test it and let us know what you think about the results?

I and some others think it works, but I want to be sure it not a placebo effect (It shouldn't be actually, or why include the option)
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post #56 of 1012
9/4/12 at 3:13pm
As far as perceived screen size, I posted about this in the hmz t1 thread. The type of audio setup you have will have a huge impact on the perceived screen size.

When I first got the T1 and used it with the stock headphones, I wasn't convinced that I was looking at a big screen. The sound is so "small" and right in your ear so that you are constantly reminded that you are using a device on your head.

I removed the headphones and used the hmd with my home theater speakers. I have a 106" projector screen. With the speakers playing i was totally convinced that i was looking at an image as big or bigger than my projector screen.

Now i use my own headphones and use bass shakers in my sofa, use virtual surround sound. The screen looks ridiculously big.

Just imagine if you went to the local IMax and used the Sony hmz's headphones for audio. That would suck. So why do the same with the hmz?
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post #57 of 1012
9/4/12 at 7:20pm
agreed play the home theater speakers is the ways to go with the HMZ-T1.
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post #58 of 1012
9/6/12 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonf5 View Post

On the last tab of the Sony page linked on the first page of this thread, you can see the following description for virtual screen size:
750 inch in 20m distance
which equals
A 750 inch screen at 65.62 feet
Now if you divide both amounts by 6.562, you get a 114.3 inches at 10ft which is what your perceived screen size will be in your HT setting.
What people perceive it at is inconsequential as it is not a variable and perceptions are psychosomatic anyway as they know they are wearing a device so the brain perceives it as a smaller screen.
Keep in mind that if you go the projector route, you will have to wear glasses for 3D which might have the same effect on you anyway.
HTH smile.gif
Theory is one thing, reality is another. Just because your eyes are supposedly focused 20m away due to the optics does not mean it feels like the screen is 20m away. Your eyes use more than how they are focused to judge distance and depth.

To me, it felt like the screen was about 5.5ft back, which makes the virtual image around 63″ in size. However I normally sit about 3ft from a 46″ screen, so relative to that, the image size was actually more like that of a 34″ display—and that’s what it actually felt like I was looking at, not a 63″ panel.

45º FoV is not very much. It only starts to become a cinematic experience around 60º FoV. I would much rather have a projector than the HMZ-T1. Something like the Optoma GT750 would give you a huge image without much throw distance, and should have less lag than the HMZ-T1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG25 View Post

Wow, thanks for the pictures. If that's how you really see it (i was also wondering about the black borders, ie how large or small they are, compared to the screen), then i think i won't be disappointed.
It has a 45º FoV. There is no way it fills his vision as he indicates with that image.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG25 View Post

The Oculus Rift is also very interesting, but they're missing movie viewing support and they are low resolution. And not to mention they will need serious support from big AAA developers, in order to succeed. Too many things that need to be addressed and it will take years, imo. That being said, when Doom 4 will arrive, i'm buying one. biggrin.gif
The Oculus Rift is a development platform for VR. It’s not a consumer device, nor is it intended to be one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kixpress View Post

input lag? well it really depends on your mouse/keyboard, there is literally no lag,
There is 50ms+ lag on the HMZ-T1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kixpress View Post

i can honestly say you can't see individual pixels.
I am not saying this as an insult, and you may think that you have good vision, but you need to get your eyesight checked if you don’t see an obvious grid over the image when using the HMZ-T1.
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post #59 of 1012
9/6/12 at 8:14am
The grid is really the hmz downer cool.gif Sony should done 2 things on the hmz-2 1080p and a wire less unit ...
As now i dont see the 2nd as much of a improvment over the first in the picture and thats a shame ...
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post #60 of 1012
9/6/12 at 8:21am
Isn't the pixel grid visible the same as on a 720P projected image? For example, on a 90" screen from 10 feet away.
Quote:
There is 50ms+ lag on the HMZ-T1
Was this measured against a CRT or it's just a subjective estimation?
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