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True Advance: New Dark Chip 3 Projectors from Acer!

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Acer moves to the head of the pack by making a most meaningful improvement to native contrast in their 2013 lineup. They compete directly against the Optoma HD33 and BenQ 7000, both which use the less desirable Dark Chip 2 (DC2).

Here is the latest from the French (Kraine):
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=fr&to=en&a=http://www.audiovideohd.fr/produit-videoprojecteur-3D/Acer/
post #2 of 21
Which new Acer projector uses DC3? The H7532BD claims a 50000:1 contrast ratio. That is the same as the HD9500BD which also uses DC2. I failed to see any improvement.
post #3 of 21
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
Manufacture marketing departments specify DYNAMIC contrast (here 50,000) which is almost meaningless.
They can always boost this number without making any real improvements.
Going from the DC2 to the DC3 is real progress as it raises the NATIVE contrast.
Last year consumers had to pay $3K for a 3D DC3 projector, which incidentally were full of bugs.

There are two web sites which do measure NATIVE contrast (Kraine and Cine4Home). I expect them to be greatly interested in reviewing the new 1080p 3D DC3.
This upgrade should pressure Optoma too. it only gets better from here.
post #5 of 21
Acer 720p projectors have used DC3 in the past. H5360 uses a dark chip 3.
post #6 of 21
Thread Starter 
This is the under $3K forum so 720 and pico projectors are valid too.
However the "True Advance" this year is in the context of the 3D 1080 DLP projectors, which currently use the DC2. We finally get DC3 in early 2013.
---
Initially the Acer model numbers do not appear to follow any logic. But i was able to deduce that Acer is going after the (best selling) Optoma HD33 market.
The upgraded performance of the 9500 but the price below the HD33. Hmmm. A nice bone from TI?
---
Here is what Kraine says:
"Acer H6510BD: affordable 1080p 3D DLP Projector
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiovideohd.fr%2Factualites%2F8952-Acer-H6510BD.html
The Acer H6510BD will be available during the first quarter of 2013, still below € 1000." So USA $13-1400.
----
The model numbering IS confusing because this years (2012) 6500 (2D only) is a great deal at $832:
http://www.amazon.com/Acer-H6500-1080p-Widescreen-Projector/dp/B007JLFBQ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347047533&sr=8-1&keywords=acer+6500
review:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/acer-h6500-1080p-home-theater-projector-review.htm
----
Then there is the Acer-H7532BD which has higher contrast (50,000) yet the DLP DMD is NOT specified. But logically it would appear to require the DC3.confused.gif
More data please...
http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=fr&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiovideohd.fr%2Factualites%2F8947-Acer-H7532BD.html
Edited by HiFiFun - 9/7/12 at 1:41pm
post #7 of 21
Quote:
But logically it would appear to require the DC3.
The H9500BD is also specified (as the H7532BD) with a 50000:1 contrast ratio and uses DC2.
The H6510 inherits the 10000:1 contrast ratio from H6500 which uses DC2.

I see no evidence for DC3 in the new models.
post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiggUA View Post

The H9500BD is also specified (as the H7532BD) with a 50000:1 contrast ratio and uses DC2.
The H6510 inherits the 10000:1 contrast ratio from H6500 which uses DC2.
I see no evidence for DC3 in the new models.
Acer H5610BD:

1080p 3D DLP Projector
DC3 DLP
24p native
Acer ColorBoost II +
Focus
Zoom x 8
2D/3D conversion
2 x HDMI 1.4
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiovideohd.fr%2Factualites%2F8952-Acer-H6510BD.html

Remember manufactures usually specify dynamic contrast which is meaningless.
No doubt many owners of DC2 projectors will be a bit upset upon learning of the DC3: i would!

The real issue is one of neglect. Home theater DLP projectors are not a priority for Texas Instruments. Look at what DLP projector market segment they are after:
http://www.dlp.com/technology/ifa2012/ifa2012.aspx

No one better dare ask if there are DC3 PICO projectors! (I see no evidence for DC3 in the new PICO projectors).
Edited by HiFiFun - 9/7/12 at 5:15pm
post #9 of 21
And Optoma has put the DC3 in the GT series of projectors and not the HD33/3300 models. Must have been a reason for that. There seems to be a lot of hype being built here for something we know little about. If the DC3 chip was such a success I would have expected to see much more of it before now, yet this not new chip finds it's way into few models, and a GT750 lower end gaming projector just to mention one that comes to mind. I say we need to wait and see. The few higher end DC3 chip machines that have been made suffer from brightness issues from what I have read. I am just speculating here, but there must be a reason even BenQ did not use the DC3 in the W7000 and I am all but sure it was not the cost. If anyone can school me on this then please go ahead.
post #10 of 21
Implementation is just as important as the technology. I had an Optoma GT720 with a DC3 chip and wasn't impressed with the black levels. However, even a projector with DC 2 and an iris like the Sharp xv-3000/Marantz VP4001 can have great black levels.
post #11 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post

Implementation is just as important as the technology.
Exactly!
Which is why the DC4 is has better implementation (native contrast) than the DC3 which is better than the DC2. Incidentally each costs more to manufacture too.

It is well understood that dynamic iris are a band-aid for improving black level. They work best with an all black screen. Why enjoys watching this?
They can't hide poor black level in mixed content scenes with brighter objects.

The DC3, being specified with a higher native contrast than the DC2, has the potential for higher performance (better PQ).

This is exciting because Acer's 9500 implementation made the most out of the lowly DC2's black level. So hopefully Acer can offer similar high performance for the coming 6510 model.

Other manufactures may still be using the DC2, so its to their competitive advantage to rationalize or marginalize the new Acer's incorporating the DC3. They don't want to loose sales.
Is AVS Forum free of this type of influence?
post #12 of 21
Thread Starter 
While everyone is waiting for the new and improved Acer projectors i'd like to offer a superb beer-budget buy in the new high-speed cables:
http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-High-Speed-Cable-Ethernet/dp/B0061RJSWC/ref=?ie=UTF8&m=A3TG9YEWX61L6A

HDMI cables have markedly improved, as I've tested several. The picture and sound improvement should be noticeable to just about anyone.

I also bought a 35 ft version for only $23.

Note: i already know how you feel on this subject. Have a little faith, and install the first one between your source (htpc/Blu-ray) and receiver input (usually 3 ft) then go for the receiver output to the projector second. If you do decide to risk your financial future and buy one, then please tell everyone your observations.
Note2: older HDMI cable weren't any good, especially those with ferrite cores on each end. After instantly noticing the difference i threw the ferrite cables in the trash.
Enjoy!


Edited by HiFiFun - 9/12/12 at 2:19pm
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

And Optoma has put the DC3 in the GT series of projectors and not the HD33/3300 models. Must have been a reason for that. There seems to be a lot of hype being built here for something we know little about. If the DC3 chip was such a success I would have expected to see much more of it before now, yet this not new chip finds it's way into few models, and a GT750 lower end gaming projector just to mention one that comes to mind. I say we need to wait and see. The few higher end DC3 chip machines that have been made suffer from brightness issues from what I have read. I am just speculating here, but there must be a reason even BenQ did not use the DC3 in the W7000 and I am all but sure it was not the cost. If anyone can school me on this then please go ahead.

Not trying to school you, but this discussion is creating vague recollections in my mind of TI rep discussion of the differences between DC2, DC3 and DC4... primarily being manufacturing & process improvements. This was back when (IIRC) all DC3 and DC4 chips were of the .95" variety, whereas now (at least) the DC3 is available in .65" as well. Is it possible much of the excitement around the DC3 chip is rooted in the larger DMD package that was used in high-end DLP projectors (with excellent optics and priced accordingly)? To leverage the improved contrast/black-levels of the DC3 vs DC2 and DC4 vs DC3 required high quality optics, lest the lens aberrations negate the improvements. It only makes sense that a smaller DMD would require even better optics to take advantage of the improved DMD, and I'm guessing most manufacturers don't see the point in putting a more expensive chip (DC3) in an entry-level projector with entry-level optics (keeping in mind, I'm including all PJs below roughly $3000 as entry level here).

great blog entry on .65" vs .95" DC3 DMD contrast/sharpness here: http://www.videovantage.com/?p=11

... sitting on the sidelines waiting for a 'mainstream' 1" DLP 3d projector... (and likely sitting here until I change my mind)
post #14 of 21
Thread Starter 
I agree, and have stated many times that a system is only as good as its weakest link.

My current Mitsubishi 2D 4000 ($1100) uses a DC3. Upgrading the HDMI cable ($7 per above) improved the contrast and black level.
The issue is with 3D DLP projectors. They were "hack jobs" and the lack of refinement showed.

What you don't state is Texas Instruments currently does not care much about the home theater segment. This is why the PICO DMD didn't have a native display resolution (1:1 pixel mapping) and poor black level. The emphasis is on low cost and especially tiny amounts of space, as in smart phones.

Many members here spent the good part of the past year on BenQ and Acer's trail, forcing them to restore 1:1 mapping!

Its time to move forward from the regressive steps taken last year to the DC3 for 2013.

Here is what Texas Instruments has to say on the differences:
http://e2e.ti.com/support/dlp__mems_micro-electro-mechanical_systems/f/94/t/35944.aspx
post #15 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

HDMI cables have markedly improved, as I've tested several. The picture and sound improvement should be noticeable to just about anyone.
I went back to Amazon and read several pages of customer reviews to see how they described the noticeable improvements in picture and audio quality.

Its so interesting because HDMI cable are digital and ** nothing ** should make any difference. Sound familiar guys?

The most common respone was to buy more cables. That is, they could not understand what they observed, but subliminally they liked it and wanted more.

To their credit probably 20% of people came flat out and stated they noticed improvements:
Once plugged in, I received a crisp, fresh picture...
It works great and it looks great...
These virtually eliminated the problem and even enhanced my video...

Sadly, this pleasant, rewarding and unexpected phenomena will be ignored by the establishment A/V press as there is simply no advertising $$$ in it!
post #16 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

Not trying to school you...
It only makes sense that a smaller DMD would require even better optics to take advantage of the improved DMD, and I'm guessing most manufacturers don't see the point in putting a more expensive chip (DC3) in an entry-level projector with entry-level optics (keeping in mind, I'm including all PJs below roughly $3000 as entry level here).

... sitting on the sidelines waiting for a 'mainstream' 1" DLP 3d projector... (and likely sitting here until I change my mind)

Times have changed. Last years value judgements may no longer be valid. Here is a DC3 laser powered projector due in October. Price about $2K:
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-cinema/1294555/viewsonic-pro9000-lamp-free-projector-review-hands-on
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Times have changed. Last years value judgements may no longer be valid. Here is a DC3 laser powered projector due in October. Price about $2K:
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-cinema/1294555/viewsonic-pro9000-lamp-free-projector-review-hands-on

Just the mere fact that this projector does away with the color wheel is reason enough to be interested. smile.gif

But the laser/LED hybrid illumination in a mid range priced projector doubles the attraction. I am looking forward to some hands-on evaluations once this ships.

Thanks for the link.
post #18 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Times have changed. Last years value judgements may no longer be valid. Here is a DC3 laser powered projector due in October. Price about $2K:
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-cinema/1294555/viewsonic-pro9000-lamp-free-projector-review-hands-on

Certainly times have changed. But the question here is in regards to DC2 and DC3... TI has lost interest in the HT market and stopped making improvements. Thus, as far as .65" DC3 vs .95" DC3, and DC2 vs DC3 and how they relate to the quality of the optics they are paired with, no... things have not changed. LED or laser may reduce RBE and/or improve colors, but the fundamental limitations of optics, their manufacture, and what is required of them to resolve .65" 1080p DMD without aberrations remain unchanged. TI has not changed a thing technically, and I can assure you that the cost to produce high-quality optics has most certainly not gone down! (says the man miffed his lens collection for his DSLR is no longer expanding).

I am looking forward to cost-effective LED and/or laser PJs as much as the next guy, but to get the most out of .65" DC3, we are likely still looking at a >$4k projector. I will be flabberghasted if any .65" DMD matches the blacks & ansi contrast of a well done .95" DC3 for under $3K... if it happens, I will be the first in line, as I love the look of DLP and am not RBE sensitive.
post #19 of 21
Thread Starter 
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

This was when Texas Instruments used to care about Home Theater in 2007
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1424116/what-happened-to-darkchip-4-dlp-products-announces-new-darkchip-4-2007/0_60#post_22297473

tell me about it! It is interesting that there ARE companies out there claiming the type of performance promised in 2007 of DC4 for existing products. Of course, they are very expensive... the Sim2 Nero 3D-1 and 3D-2 use the .95" DC4 DMD: Sim2 claims >10,000:1 NATIVE contrast on the 3D-1. The 3D-2 adds DynamicBlack and they claim 30,000:1 contrast. I have yet to see any measurements of native contrast for either of these projectors, but would be interested to know if they have the same ~2k-3k:1 native contrast of all the other high quality DLP projectors. No idea what is going on with that, or with the recent LED DLPs that claim higher native contrast (both iris and LED dimming?). Sure would be nice if someone released a mid-priced 3D DLP with optics in line with DC3/DC4 capabilities. The ansi contrast and sharpness of good single chip DLPs is addictive... why must we pay >$10k for that privilege if we also want 3D?
post #21 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Upgrading the HDMI cable ($7 per above) improved the contrast and black level.

I hope you're joking. HDMI cable is a digital thing, it can not affect "contrast and black level" in any way.
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