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JVC New Projectors Announced - CEDIA 2012 - Page 17

post #481 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Seems like an awful lot of debate when all that's at stake is a lousy 11% difference in CR
well I think a lot of folks are hoping that the RS4810 has most all of the bells and whistles of the RS56 for $1500 less. I can't blame them but neither am I holding my breath. I am doubtful that the RS4810 has the new wire grid polarizer but the only way to know for sure will be to get someone to ask Japan for clarification. I'll ask GaryB for some clarification.

EDIT: The question was already posted....

But it is humorous that the word "improved" has sparked this reaction. I guess the wire grid polarizer in my RS55 isn't improved so therefore must be crap....wink.gifrolleyes.gif
Edited by Geof - 9/22/12 at 3:48pm
post #482 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

why are we condemning the dual iris.. not all of us run large 1.0 AT screens. I run my RS55 @ -11 and it looks excellent on my 142" 2.8HP screen.
Different projectors for different setups. I like having options.


It's a good point you make. Lest we forget all the conversations from the past couple years, paining over performance vs. best bang for the buck etc... The consensus seemed to revolve around the critical importance of blacks and our ability to highly customize without sacrificing brightness too much. I don't regret for one second the choice(s) I've made and the extra coin that went along with it (especially with the introduction of e-shift on the 55... the 50 however??... I do regret but that was made right in the end). However this year it seems the choice is a whole lot more difficult with this intermediate model, being it has almost all of the critical elements of the RS56. To me the two or three essential questions in order to know which one is the "best" (in terms of performance and price factored as one conclusion):

  • Will the contrast ratio diff of over 40% on the 56u be completely evident and solidly contribute to the overall PQ over the 4810 (or is it a known fact a 40% ratio is marginal in real world application and should not be considered a reason to pay a premium)?
  • Will the 4810 definitely include the new wire grid or is this exclusive to the two top models (someone at AVS needs to get a definitive answer for us)
  • Will the projected increase in brightness of the 4810 outweigh the benefits of the increase in contrast on the 56u (assuming the answer above is yes), and if it does how much will 3D benefit on these new models?

I could add as well the importance of knowing with certainty if there actually are new upgraded light engines in these new models (ie - is the 4810 included if yes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5mark View Post

Interesting. When I turn up the MPC control on my RS55 I notice two different effects. One is a sharpening effect which is better than a typical "sharpness" control, but it still can produce mild sharpening artifacts (enhancing ringing in the source etc). The other is an increase in high contrast detail, such as in facial close ups. I remember wishing I could turn this detail enhancing effect up higher without increasing the sharpening effects. It looks possible that the "Enhance" control is for sharpening and "Dynamic Contrast" is for high contrast detail/depth, which would be ideal for fine-tuning both. The thing is, the Darbee I added brings out this same high contrast detail and depth with no sharpening artifacts. I'll be curious to see more about what these new controls do...

I noticed something similar and as I've watched more content and played with the Darblet more this week and now find I like a more filmic look and have turned down MPC to 2 (Darblet at 35-40% depending on content). Seems like a real nice compromise IMO.
Edited by krichter1 - 9/25/12 at 6:19am
post #483 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

It's a good point you make. Lest we forget all the conversations from the past couple years, paining over performance vs. best bang for the buck etc... The consensus seemed to revolve around the critical importance of blacks and our ability to highly customize without sacrificing brightness too much. I don't regret for one second the choice(s) I've made and the extra coin that went along with it (especially with the introduction of e-shift on the 55... the 50 however??... I do regret but that was made right in the end). However this year it seems the choice is a whole lot more difficult with this intermediate model, being it has almost all of the critical elements which almost clearly deliniated the past two models (excluding the top model of course). To me the two or three essential questions in order to know which one is the "best" (in terms of performance and price factored as one conclusion):
  • Will the contrast ratio diff of over 40% on the 56u be completely evident and solidly contribute to the overall PQ over the 4810 (or is it a known fact a 40% ratio is marginal in real world application and should not be considered a reason to pay a premium)?
  • Will the 4810 definitely include the new wire grid or is this exclusive to the two top models (someone at AVS needs to get a definitive answer for us)
  • Will in projected increase in brightness of the 4810 outweigh the benefits of the increase in contrast on the 56u (assuming the answer above is yes), and if it does how much will 3D benefit on these new models?
I could add as well the importance of knowing with certainty if there actually are new upgraded light engines in these new models (ie - is the 4810 included if yes)
I noticed something similar and as I've watched more content and played with the Darblet more this week and now find I like a more filmic look and have turned down MPC to 2 (Darblet at 35-40% depending on content). Seems like a real nice compromise IMO.

The answer I have been told and already reported here is no. The 4810 does not have the new wire grid.
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post #484 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

eshift 2 and the new wire grid go hand in hand. eshift 2 = new wire grid, or else what is eshift2? .

I agree Conan. In order for e-shift2 to work as advertised, it needs a new wire grid. They mentioned that the new e-shift2 will be a flatter device for more light to pass through, and for better resolution linearity. It will also not rely on liquid crystals for better ansi contrast. Unless there is a new wire grid polarizer, I don't see how these improvements will be possible.
post #485 of 1073
E-shift 2 I believe is replacement of two-band filter with an eight-band filter. I don't believe the new polarizing wire grid has anything to do with E-shift.
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post #486 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

E-shift 2 I believe is replacement of two-band filter with an eight-band filter. I don't believe the new polarizing wire grid has anything to do with E-shift.

Hmmm thanks for the clarification Mike. Well either way, I'm sure the picture will look great. I know we are nitpicking here a bit but that's why we're on these forums! tongue.gif
post #487 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

Reviewing the comparison here once again, i find there to be a lack of consistency in the logic of how the information is presented.
The only question is was it done intentionally or just another screw-up like last year?
From a consumer perspective one could make the case of a multiple sequence of cascading interpolation errors distilling in to a sophisticated bait and switch. Consumers think they are buying the new wire grid polarizer optical engine, but MAY not be. I'll wait for Cine4Home, as they can sort this sorry mess out!
Sadly and increasingly, corporations are not to be trusted.redface.gif

It really is getting to the point you don't know what to trust from OEM literature. Case in point and above what you and others have stated, the technical link provided by SED clearly shows the same profiles as what I have on my RS55 as well it shows a motorized cover (WTF!?):


Motorized Lens Cover
The DLA-RS4810 features a motorized lens cover which opens and closes in synchronization with power on/off to protect against dust, so even if the projector is installed up on the ceiling, you are assured of easy, trouble-free operation via the remote control.




Frustrating indeed mad.gif
Edited by krichter1 - 9/22/12 at 6:17pm
post #488 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The answer I have been told and already reported here is no. The 4810 does not have the new wire grid.
I believe you Mike and stated my case this morning. The wire grid polarizer is the device that converts the DILA polarization rotation into an image. Its performance has a large influence on Contrast Ratio, and JVC stated this is responsible for the improved CR specs in the top 2 machines. This makes perfect sense becasue that's one way to improve CR. The RS48 is based on the RS46 and it's CR has not changed over the RS45....hence there is no "improved" wire grid polarizer in these two models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

E-shift 2 I believe is replacement of two-band filter with an eight-band filter. I don't believe the new polarizing wire grid has anything to do with E-shift.
I agree 100%. The eshift glass has nothing to do with the polarizer. They are completely different optical elements. The improved eshift is due to improved processing with higher bandwidth, ie, this years 2 bands to next years 8 bands.

Regardless of improved polarizer I think the RS4810 is going to produce one helluva picture. There are many golden eyed folks quite content with the RS45. The RS46 will be better still and the RS48/4810 adds eshift2 which is is going to make this one heck of a bargain.

I've had the RS50 and now have the RS55 and I am on the preorder list for the RS4810. I believe the 4810 will be the best of the three that I've owned. I may be wrong but I doubt I'll be unhappy with it.
Edited by Geof - 9/22/12 at 6:38pm
post #489 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

It really is getting to the point you don't know what to trust from OEM literature. Case in point and above what you and others have stated, the technical link provided by SED clearly shows the same profiles as what I have on my RS55 as well it shows a motorized cover (WTF!?):
Motorized Lens Cover
The DLA-RS4810 features a motorized lens cover which opens and closes in synchronization with power on/off to protect against dust, so even if the projector is installed up on the ceiling, you are assured of easy, trouble-free operation via the remote control.

Frustrating indeed mad.gif
Kevin, we go thru this JVC crap every year...remember the debate on the RS40 CMS...yes, no, yes, no yes, and finally no. Not to mention the outrageous claim of the RS40/50/60 being the brightest JVC released. These were BIG bold claims on the JVC web site that turned out to be ...... entirely false.
post #490 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The answer I have been told and already reported here is no. The 4810 does not have the new wire grid.

Shame on me for just going off what I read on JVC's website Mike:


JVC exclusive e-shift2 technology for upconverted 3840 x 2160 (4K) precision
e-Shift is an innovative JVC technology that allows us to build a projector with 4 times the resolution using much of our existing infrastructure, keeping the projector small and affordable. For 2013, We've made significant upgrades to the original e-Shift—now called e-shift2—which include an all-new optical device, smarter Multiple Pixel Control technology, and improved enhancement and upscaling. All of this results in a picture with significantly improved contrast, and more natural color tones than on previous models. And best of all, with the DLA-RS4810, e-shift2 4K precision is now more affordable than ever.
Using e-shift, the original 1920 x 1080 signal is processed with a correlation detection algorithm to uncover detail that can be enhanced on a 4K display. With e-shift2, a much wider area is sampled—12 times as many pixels than previously—which results in improved edge transitions, zero aliasing and stair-stepping, and a significant increase in contrast in detailed areas. New sub pixels are generated based on this detection and a 3840 x 2160 frame is created and enhanced. Our new 8 band analysis filter delivers much more accurate smoothing and enhancement that the previous 2 band filter. The enhanced 4K frame is then temporally separated into subframes 1920 x 1080 pixels each and projected using a the D-ILA optical system through the e-Shift2 device. The original e-Shift device used liquid crystals to shift the subframes by 0.5 pixel both vertically and horizontally. Our new e-shift2 device shifts the image without the use of liquid crystals, and that results in an overall better resolution linearity and better ANSI contrast. The result is an image with 4 times the pixel density of the original content.

Outstanding native contrast ratio: 50,000:1
For years, JVC has led the industry with projectors that produce the highest native contrast ratio. The DLA-RS4810 is built around a newly designed optical engine with even higher contrast than previous models. An upgraded wire-grid polarizer reduces stray light caused by reflections and helps increase the native contrast ratio to a stunning 50,000:1. When we say "native contrast ratio" we're talking about the intrinsic ability of the projector to show the complete range of image contrast simultaneously, in every frame. There is no dynamic iris to artificially inflate contrast specifications. This is important because it allows the blackest levels of the image to be shown with the bright high lights.

... vs. the RS56u technical description

Outstanding native contrast ratio: 90,000:1
For years, JVC has led the industry with projectors that produce the highest native contrast ratio. The DLA-RS56 is built around a newly designed optical engine with even higher contrast than previous models. An upgraded wire-grid polarizer reduces stray light caused by reflections and helps increase the native contrast ratio to a stunning 90,000:1. When we say "native contrast ratio" we're talking about the intrinsic ability of the projector to show the complete range of image contrast simultaneously, in every frame. There is no dynamic iris to artificially inflate contrast specifications. This is important because it allows the blackest levels of the image to be shown with the bright high lights.


Wait what was that? I couldn't hear you. tongue.gif

wink.gif
Edited by krichter1 - 9/22/12 at 7:03pm
post #491 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Kevin, we go thru this JVC crap every year...remember the debate on the RS40 CMS...yes, no, yes, no yes, and finally no. Not to mention the outrageous claim of the RS40/50/60 being the brightest JVC released. These were BIG bold claims on the JVC web site that turned out to be ...... entirely false.

I know... fool me once... OH WAIT... this is the 3rd time already!??
post #492 of 1073
Yeah, dang JVC's website does list that the 4810 has the new wire grid. If this is incorrect maybe they will get it changed. It's just the way they word their description of eshift2 that it has to incorporate the new wire grid which is adding to the confusion.

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/tech_desc.jsp?model_id=MDL102176&feature_id=02

Mike
post #493 of 1073
Ahhhh.....the power of marketing, we all know if one paints a car red it goes faster.....a couple of tiny bells and a whisle of a slightly different tone and it MUST be heaps better....yes?

C'mon JVC we need something new.....really new, modulatable Laser light engine at least!cool.gif
post #494 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

On my JVC RS-45, it needs a CMS and the errors are visible as a yellow push and the sat tracking errors are not all small. Tom Huffman also measured the yellow push on one he calibrated, and as the lamp wears in the yellow push becomes much more visible to the eye. After having owned projectors from almost every brand, the JVC RS-45 is one of the harder projectors to calibrate. I would put the last 5 projectors I've owned above the RS-45 in color accuracy (unfortunately). When the lamp was new, it was closer on mine, but not now. As the lamp wears in I've noticed the most accurate gray scale does not appear to produce the best gamut. The blue luminance error is part of the problem combining with other issues.

I have 800 hours on the lamp and absolutely no visible "yellow push" or any other notifiable "push" either when gray scale is calibrated properly.
At default settings the image looks greenish but that's simply a gray scale issue and easy to fix, maybe I'm lucky and got one that is not representative but I doubt it.

The projector is run off a PC and there are other calibrated monitors in the room for direct comparison, if I saw anything that needed fixing I would fix it.
post #495 of 1073
I cant believe people are getting worked up over a tiny "claimed" CR improvement. Unless contrast improves 100% or more its not going to be a significant change.

I would be very surprised if anyone could reliably pick the difference in contrast between the new models and the 2011 range in a double blind test.

If ANSI contrast is important stay away from the E-Shift models.
post #496 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

I have 800 hours on the lamp and absolutely no visible "yellow push" or any other notifiable "push" either when gray scale is calibrated properly.
At default settings the image looks greenish but that's simply a gray scale issue and easy to fix, maybe I'm lucky and got one that is not representative but I doubt it.
The projector is run off a PC and there are other calibrated monitors in the room for direct comparison, if I saw anything that needed fixing I would fix it.

Well different PJ's are going to have different calibrations and some of it is probably luck of the draw, but I've seen a few JVC's and I've definitely noticed it on some more than others. Like I said, Tom Huffman noticed the same thing that the RS-45 tends to push yellow EVEN after gray-scale calibration, and if it was just me (and not him as well) then I probably would have assumed I didn't calibrate it as good as I could (but I've calibrated enough projectors to know when a projector's gamut has not just a meter color push, but a visible push by eye). I definitely do NOT consider the RS-45 at the top-end of color accuracy compared to other PJ's I've owned, the sat tracking errors alone are more severe than many projectors.

I also know 100% it's not because I read that he had the issue then I thought I had it (not in my mind), before I read about it, I noticed mine had a SLIGHT yellow push from day one (it just got worse the older the lamp got). You guys also told me the GAMMA errors were all in my head when I first got it, and low and behold almost every calibrator has had to calibrate the heck out of the RS-45's gamma to clean it up. Most people probably won't obsess over it, but I'm just saying that a PROPER CMS might help the overall calibration, but knowing JVC's CMS implementation, as you adjust it it'll just make the SAT tracking even worse, so I would be more interested in a third-party solution, been meaning to try yCMS and some other HTPC stuff for ages but just never got around to it.

That said, despite the minor color issue, I still like the projector, but I do hate the lamp and I don't like the TEDIOUS JVC menus (I despise them).
Edited by coderguy - 9/23/12 at 12:16am
post #497 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Well different PJ's are going to have different calibrations and some of it is probably luck of the draw, but I've seen a few JVC's and I've definitely noticed it on some more than others. Like I said, Tom Huffman noticed the same thing that the RS-45 tends to push yellow EVEN after gray-scale calibration, and if it was just me (and not him as well) then I probably would have assumed I didn't calibrate it as good as I could (but I've calibrated enough projectors to know when a projector's gamut has not just a meter color push, but a visible push by eye). I definitely do NOT consider the RS-45 at the top-end of color accuracy compared to other PJ's I've owned, the sat tracking errors alone are more severe than many projectors. My $600 DLP even beats it in overall accuracy (pre-calibration and post-calibration).
I also know 100% it's not because I read that he had the issue then I thought I had it (not in my mind), before I read about it, I noticed mine had a SLIGHT yellow push from day one (it just got worse the older the lamp got). You guys also told me the GAMMA errors were all in my head when I first got it, and low and behold almost every calibrator has had to calibrate the heck out of the RS-45's gamma to clean it up. Most people probably won't obsess over it, but I'm just saying that a PROPER CMS might help the overall calibration, but knowing JVC's CMS implementation, as you adjust it it'll just make the SAT tracking even worse, so I would be more interested in a third-party solution, been meaning to try yCMS and some other HTPC stuff for ages but just never got around to it.
That said, despite the color issue, it's not the end of the world, and I still like the projector, but I do hate the lamp and I don't like the TEDIOUS JVC menus (I despise them).



And thats why I chose the JVC R46 hopefully it continues to be the projector to beat for movies
post #498 of 1073
The Epson 5010 calibrates better, as does a Mits hc4000, and the Sony's (except for the older Sony's had issues with posterization in dark scenes).
Hopefully this years JVC RS-46 will have fewer gamut and tracking issues, as well as a better starting gamma curve.
post #499 of 1073
Now all i need to do is have coderguy calibrate it lol
post #500 of 1073
You need to have Tom Huffman calibrate it...

BTW, as noted all projectors have some SAT tracking errors, but to me the end result of my JVC RS-45's calibration is not as good as the end result of some other projectors I've calibrated, for whatever that's worth. It's not bad at all (I've seen worse), but there are some projectors I've had that after calibration I felt like it was truly close to reference at all points.
Edited by coderguy - 9/23/12 at 12:15am
post #501 of 1073
I more then likely will not be able to see or tell any of the bad points beacuse I dont fully know what I am looking for.. But a R46 for my first Home theater projector cannot be a bad start.

Tom does not work in my area
post #502 of 1073
Chad B I think is highly recommended in my area
post #503 of 1073
I agree, I am just pointing out what I consider a small weakness. I would still pick the JVC RS-46 over most projectors, especially if they fixed the lamp.
Yes, Chad B would do good.
post #504 of 1073
Well I am at the top of that list for R46 so I should be one of the first to receive on the shipments going out.. Now to still nail down the screen.. So far looking at a Carada 126 inch 16:9 or a 128 wide 2:35
post #505 of 1073
It should blow you away, I think the DLP fans on the forum grossly underestimate the value of Native On/Off contrast in movies. Also, there are lots of TV shows that are NOW being shot more like movies where the JVC runs away from most other projectors IMHO, like Game of Thrones (and even Walking Dead to some extent). The JVC is definitely the winner when it comes to SCI FI, Medieval Stuff, Horror, and I think even a lot of Westerns have quite a few dark scenes (the famous tying the horses up at night and going into the bar).
post #506 of 1073
I am pretty sure it is going to ... Got a couple things to still do in the room.. Might throw some bass traps in the corners and some acoustic panels in. Something to hold me over without spending a ton . Gives me something to do in the room while I WAIT.
post #507 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

I am pretty sure it is going to ... Got a couple things to still do in the room.. Might throw some bass traps in the corners and some acoustic panels in. Something to hold me over without spending a ton . Gives me something to do in the room while I WAIT.

I think that's a pretty sensible option: Every year we hear about improvements that don't always materialise and inaccurate information on the press releases. Of course you guys are lucky in that you can get a great pre order price, but that's not a lot of good if you end up disappointed with 3D ghosting, ANSI contrast that isn't improved wink.gif or some other issue: IMHO once you've got it then the price seems less important: the quality (or lack of) will show long after the price is forgotten as someone once said. I have to admit I've kind of fallen out with projectors myself, due to the impact the viewing room has and I can't live with making my main room like a Goth's paradise. However I have seen some pretty cheap deals on last year's models which have tempted me, so maybe that's the smarter move as at least they can be bought knowing the various issues (I'm not bothered by 3D which makes it easier for me). Of course I'm grateful for the threads that enlightened me to the various issues with last year's models, so perhaps I shouldn't put anyone off buying the latest ones. biggrin.gif

Regarding the SAT tracking errors, then I think this makes an even stronger case for a lower spec model, plus a Lumagen with the 125 point colour gamut calibration.
post #508 of 1073
I think the higher-end JVC's had better OOTB color for what it's worth if judging purely by what some that compared them said. How accurate the OOTB starting presets or starting color is pre-calibration is more important on some projectors than others, because how easy it is to calibrate without side effects (such as does changing things increase sat errors, or cause posterization, or major loss in lumens, etc...). Some projectors calibrate without that many side effects (actually I'd probably say not many really do, but let's say some), but as far as the JVC's go, the less you have to adjust the calibration the better IMHO (and that may be true with nearly every video device, but just more so here).
Edited by coderguy - 9/23/12 at 4:28am
post #509 of 1073
wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I think that's a pretty sensible option: Every year we hear about improvements that don't always materialise and inaccurate information on the press releases. Of course you guys are lucky in that you can get a great pre order price, but that's not a lot of good if you end up disappointed with 3D ghosting, ANSI contrast that isn't improved wink.gif or some other issue: IMHO once you've got it then the price seems less important: the quality (or lack of) will show long after the price is forgotten as someone once said. I have to admit I've kind of fallen out with projectors myself, due to the impact the viewing room has and I can't live with making my main room like a Goth's paradise. However I have seen some pretty cheap deals on last year's models which have tempted me, so maybe that's the smarter move as at least they can be bought knowing the various issues (I'm not bothered by 3D which makes it easier for me). Of course I'm grateful for the threads that enlightened me to the various issues with last year's models, so perhaps I shouldn't put anyone off buying the latest ones. biggrin.gif
Regarding the SAT tracking errors, then I think this makes an even stronger case for a lower spec model, plus a Lumagen with the 125 point colour gamut calibration.

This is going to be my first projector and the preorder price is just as low as last years model right now. I have been waiting for this a long time. Over 2 years I was collecting audio gear etc etc. now I got the space and most of it done. Painting the ceiling black as well as walls were tough at first but it has grown on me I kinda like the look.
post #510 of 1073
And let's not forget we are all fortunate to be talking about this stuff and viewing. Many are struggling these days.
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