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JVC New Projectors Announced - CEDIA 2012 - Page 19

post #541 of 1073
9/24/12 at 2:54pm
According to JVC, the new e-shift2 will supposedly have better ANSI contrast (than the RS55) since it will not use liquid crystals when it shifts the image. I don't know technically why this is so, but we'll see if this is true when we get our hands on them. It may be the case of the RS4810 having better ANSI than the RS55 simply because of the e-shift2 improvements and not because of any improvements of the wire grid polarizer. Again, time will tell.
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post #542 of 1073
9/24/12 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post

Mike I'm sure you are not going on clues and reading between the lines in your opinion. Who was the person that said definitively the 4810 does not have the new wire grid, and what person in JVC's hierarchy did they get that from? This is beyond sloppy of them if true to do the glossy new press release and AGAIN as in past years put incorrect information in there. And now that it is out there with people asking for specific clarification, if true the 4810 doesn't have it....why do they not correct it and date the revision so as to not continue with the false information? Have they already forgotten the flack from the 2011 models' advertised lumens and the talk of about 15' wide screens? Apologies if both those areas of confirmation have been given. If it was Gary in UK can he give where that came from and confirm? Thanks.
Quote:
"I think the clue here is the RS4810 does not have higher contrast than previous years. it is exactly the same as last years 45. Whereas the 56 and 66 have increased contrast from last year, due to the new wire grid."

As I reported earlier, The RS4810 does not have the new wire grid. look for this to be corrected on JVC's site.
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post #543 of 1073
9/24/12 at 4:07pm
GJ,
Spec (ulators) = Spec (alienators)
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post #544 of 1073
9/24/12 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Not to bash (I'm a JVC owner and will remain one), but if what was true a few years ago still is, it can't.
Whereas DLP can have one pixel/mirror full on and neighboring ones full off, charge leakage (IIRC) between adjacent pixels prevents that in DILA.
Of course this doesn't mean much without quantification; not sure how one even goes about measuring luminance of single pixels.
What matters is how it looks, so a simple A/B between DLP and DILA with black/white pixels would be interesting.
I think they've improved MTF wise but I was trying to keep it simple....the projectors do show single pixel line pairs though....wink.gif
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post #545 of 1073
9/24/12 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SED <--- Rules View Post

According to JVC, the new e-shift2 will supposedly have better ANSI contrast (than the RS55) since it will not use liquid crystals when it shifts the image.

But both should have lower ANSI CR than the RS46, without the additional optical element to reduce it.

And the "significant increase in contrast in detailed areas" from eshift is image contrast not optical contrast, and can be achieved with other means, like the Darblet (though those who have both say the effect is additive).
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post #546 of 1073
9/24/12 at 6:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

As I reported earlier, The RS4810 does not have the new wire grid. look for this to be corrected on JVC's site.

Thanks for the clarification Mike but Ron's post was a very good one and had your statement early on been a tad more definitive or added "per JVC" (or something to that effect) I believe we could have put this to rest a couple of days ago. Again we only have two sources to go by... the manufacturer or the dealer we buy from.

This could certainly sway my pre-order decision from the 4810 to the 56.
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post #547 of 1073
9/24/12 at 7:35pm
Thanks Mike! I need to hear some of the first good reviews before deciding between them. Hopefully we can read one of the classic reviews soon from cine4home. When Ekki (e?) gets done with them you know the machinists' names who finished every part.....biggrin.gif Who the bleep else literally disassembles the entire projector and posts photos of the chip set??? I love them.... he's the best! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
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post #548 of 1073
9/24/12 at 8:05pm
+1

Can't wait for that! wink.gif

Oh and for those that didn't notice on some of the other threads I was saddened to learn Mark Haflich has left AVS. This will be a big loss for AVS for sure and I for one want to take this opportunity to thanks Mark for all his help and advice over the past few years. I hope he plans on continuing his outstanding contributions here in the future. I toast him with a nice single malt and a Stogie (while I watched the Packers hopeful loss!). biggrin.gif

Cheers!


EDIT - Cool! Bears are in 1st place and my boy from ND just STOLE that game with highway robbery!! Can you say... NFL settles with the refs!? eek.gif
Edited by krichter1 - 9/24/12 at 8:51pm
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post #549 of 1073
9/24/12 at 8:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonF View Post

Thanks Mike! I need to hear some of the first good reviews before deciding between them. Hopefully we can read one of the classic reviews soon from cine4home. When Ekki (e?) gets done with them you know the machinists' names who finished every part.....biggrin.gif Who the bleep else literally disassembles the entire projector and posts photos of the chip set??? I love them.... he's the best! biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

Which is why the reviewers after him find they always get projectors with missing screws.
Cine4home does some of the best reviews for sure.
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post #550 of 1073
9/25/12 at 6:01am
Mark left AVS!?eek.gif Wonder why? Geeeze. Won't be the same without him frown.gif
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post #551 of 1073
9/25/12 at 6:30am
Truer words have never been spoken John. Rumor is Jason Turk has also left (for the second time). Sales is a tough business for sure. frown.gif
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post #552 of 1073
9/25/12 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post

Thanks for the clarification Mike but Ron's post was a very good one and had your statement early on been a tad more definitive or added "per JVC" (or something to that effect) I believe we could have put this to rest a couple of days ago. Again we only have two sources to go by... the manufacturer or the dealer we buy from.
This could certainly sway my pre-order decision from the 4810 to the 56.

Yes, but I was asked who my source was. You never give out sources. When you do, you soon find that you no longer have a source. smile.gif Most of these questions were answered at CEDIA.
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post #553 of 1073
9/25/12 at 3:36pm
I would have preferred the $5K 4810 step up model to have the improved ANSI contrast (from the new wire grid polarizes) over the e-shift.
The Sony 50ES creation processing taken from the 1000 restores "missing information" effectively and may be preferred over the e-shift.
With the high fill-factor the 2K pixels are hard to see anyway. The 1000 designer reworked the 50ES optical block too.

From the early observations there are several other noticeable improvements in the 50ES which (in total) costs ~30% less than the 4810.
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post #554 of 1073
9/25/12 at 6:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

From the early observations there are several other noticeable improvements in the 50ES which (in total) costs ~30% less than the 4810.

Why not compare it to the RS46 then?
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post #555 of 1073
9/25/12 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Yes, but I was asked who my source was. You never give out sources. When you do, you soon find that you no longer have a source. smile.gif Most of these questions were answered at CEDIA.

Good enough then Mike... thanks for the confirmation. wink.gif
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post #556 of 1073
9/25/12 at 7:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

I would have preferred the $5K 4810 step up model to have the improved ANSI contrast (from the new wire grid polarizes) over the e-shift.
The Sony 50ES creation processing taken from the 1000 restores "missing information" effectively and may be preferred over the e-shift.
With the high fill-factor the 2K pixels are hard to see anyway. The 1000 designer reworked the 50ES optical block too.
From the early observations there are several other noticeable improvements in the 50ES which (in total) costs ~30% less than the 4810.

The CR on the RS4810 is the same as the RS48, which in turn is the same as last year's RS45 (all are 50,000:1 CR). The RS4810 appears to be essentially the same performance as the RS48 but marketed more for the custom installer market as compared to the more widely distributed RS48. As for comparing the prices of a RS48 to the Sony HW50ES, remember Sony is now enforcing a retail pricing policy for their dealers so the "street price" for the HW50ES and the RS48 will probably be similar if you purchase the JVC from a discounter (e.g., AVS Store).
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post #557 of 1073
9/25/12 at 9:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

I would have preferred the $5K 4810 step up model to have the improved ANSI contrast (from the new wire grid polarizes) over the e-shift.
The Sony 50ES creation processing taken from the 1000 restores "missing information" effectively and may be preferred over the e-shift.
With the high fill-factor the 2K pixels are hard to see anyway. The 1000 designer reworked the 50ES optical block too.
From the early observations there are several other noticeable improvements in the 50ES which (in total) costs ~30% less than the 4810.

Its extremely hard to see a difference with the eshift on the RS55 with a 120in screen. You really have to sit close to tell a difference, 1SW or less. On a 100in screen, there was no difference with the eshift on or off to me. Unless you sit really close to a 120in screen, the eshift shouldn't be your main goal in performance. The contrast is what I look for. Even Kris Deering stated that his RS35 is better than the newer JVCs. I hope the newer JVC has a better eshift that is noticeable even on a 100in screen. I plan on using a 160in HP screen with either another RS55 or the RS4810. Don't know yet.
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post #558 of 1073
9/26/12 at 3:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I would just send a Private Message to Tom Huffman, I do not feel like arguing this, nothing personal. On my unit, the saturation tracking does not measure that tightly.
With all due respect, this is not so simple. Yellow does not have to be over-saturated to see a yellow push. There are many scenarios that can cause a visible color push. The way colors are presented in video pixels are often created from gradiated mixes of other colors. Color mixing of pixels can form its own color, and does not necessarily derive itself from the basis of the own color that was off.
I know you are one of the more knowledgeable people in here, but when it comes to calibration I have to disagree with a lot of the way people try to quantify what people can and cannot see only going by the basis elements of the saturation of colors. If one color is undersaturated or has bad luminance, the eye will pick up more of another color naturally in a scene and this goes on way beyond just saturation (HSL + lighting elements + color pallets of mixed pixels + gray scale tiny errors + meter error + sat tracking error, then combine all the errors into one giant mess).
There are BIAS issues about "who notices by how much". How much more do people like me notice than the next guy (someone that has trained themselves to notice). Everyone has a different perception.

I would like to know your definition of "yellow push", is the pure color yellow over saturated or does the image have an overall yellow ting?
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post #559 of 1073
9/26/12 at 5:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Its extremely hard to see a difference with the eshift on the RS55 with a 120in screen. You really have to sit close to tell a difference, 1SW or less. On a 100in screen, there was no difference with the eshift on or off to me. Unless you sit really close to a 120in screen, the eshift shouldn't be your main goal in performance. The contrast is what I look for. Even Kris Deering stated that his RS35 is better than the newer JVCs. I hope the newer JVC has a better eshift that is noticeable even on a 100in screen. I plan on using a 160in HP screen with either another RS55 or the RS4810. Don't know yet.

Although I have pre-ordered the RS4810, I am starting to lean towards sticking with my RS-35 and waiting. I have a 110" (54 x 96) 1.78 aspect ratio screen, and sit at about 1.5 SW. The RS35 has greater contrast (70,000:1) versus the RS48 / RS4810 (50,000:1), according to the advertised specifications. I feel like I am in a tug of war.

Mark
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post #560 of 1073
9/26/12 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Although I have pre-ordered the RS4810, I am starting to lean towards sticking with my RS-35 and waiting. I have a 110" (54 x 96) 1.78 aspect ratio screen, and sit at about 1.5 SW. The RS35 has greater contrast (70,000:1) versus the RS48 / RS4810 (50,000:1), according to the advertised specifications. I feel like I am in a tug of war.
Mark

I'd suggest having a read (via Google translator) of the Cine4home reviews of your RS35 (=HD990 I believe?) and the X30: Compare their contrast and lumens figures for various amounts of zoom, lamp power and iris position. See how these compare to your set up and it might give you some idea of real world contrast figures you might achieve. If the RS35 maintains a higher contrast than the X30 in your room, then IMHO you'd be taking a backwards step in some ways: Of course you won't have 3D (doesn't bother me, maybe you either?). The longer viewing distance you have might not give you as much benefit with the E2Shift feature either.

If it were my money I'd keep the RS35 unless you want 3D. Now you can stop tugging. biggrin.gif
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post #561 of 1073
9/26/12 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen View Post

I would like to know your definition of "yellow push", is the pure color yellow over saturated or does the image have an overall yellow ting?

It can happen either way depending on the scene, but the image does not have a constant yellow tinge (only very occasionally). I did calibrate the gray scale and I asked some other calibrators what I could do, and they said it just happens like that on some JVC's where you get yellowish scenes it tends to show at some saturation points too much yellow. I would describe it as a "newspaper look" at some lighting, whereas in other lighting the yellows appear too strong due to the lack of other colors. It does not happen hardly any when watching stuff that is relatively near-D65 lighting (outside neutral sunlit shots, soap opera like, news, etc..), but it happens more often in movies. The issue was barely noticed on a new lamp, but much more so on an older one.

Tom Huffman specifically said, "The JVC color is good, but not perfect, it is too yellow in certain cases".
That is his statement and I agree.
Edited by coderguy - 9/26/12 at 8:37am
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post #562 of 1073
9/26/12 at 8:42am
Kelvin....I've already offered to buy Mark's RS35 so convince him he wants the 4810...wink.gifsmile.gif

In all seriousness I agree with your post....
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post #563 of 1073
9/26/12 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Why not compare it to the RS46 then?

I agree, I think the comparison is between the RS46 and the HW50ES
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post #564 of 1073
9/26/12 at 9:24am
On the basis of what?


HW50ES should be compared to both JVC models given the JVC price and functionality differences.
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post #565 of 1073
9/26/12 at 9:29am
The HW50ES comes with a spare lamp an IR emitter and two pairs of 3D glasses. Unless I am wrong, these do not come with the JVC and would add ~$500 to the cost. Thus, the HW50ES and JVC RS46 are effectively the same MSRP (assuming you want 3D) and the RS48 is $1500 more than the HW50ES.
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post #566 of 1073
9/26/12 at 10:11am
Agreed the MSRPs are comparable (50es vs RS46)

But the point is if the Sony should also be compared to the 4810 (at a 25-30% discount) and if a comparable a great value
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post #567 of 1073
9/26/12 at 10:44am
I think I'm going to keep my RS20 for a few more years, or until it breaks smile.gif The contrast on my 20 is 50,000:1 also, and I think the only thing I'll be missing is a slightly sharper picture (although my new darblet brought new life to the 20 eek.gif ). I sit too far away to probably see eShift on a 115" scope screen, and just watched The Avengers: AMAZING PQ TO ME...........plus I don't do 3D wink.gif
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post #568 of 1073
9/26/12 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

I think I'm going to keep my RS20 for a few more years, or until it breaks smile.gif The contrast on my 20 is 50,000:1 also, and I think the only thing I'll be missing is a slightly sharper picture (although my new darblet brought new life to the 20 eek.gif ). I sit too far away to probably see eShift on a 115" scope screen, and just watched The Avengers: AMAZING PQ TO ME...........plus I don't do 3D wink.gif
I'm with you.
Just put in a new bulb in my RS20.
Waiting for 100 hours before a new calibration.
However, I love seeing the new technologies develop from the sideline.

Mike
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post #569 of 1073
9/26/12 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I'd suggest having a read (via Google translator) of the Cine4home reviews of your RS35 (=HD990 I believe?) and the X30: Compare their contrast and lumens figures for various amounts of zoom, lamp power and iris position. See how these compare to your set up and it might give you some idea of real world contrast figures you might achieve. If the RS35 maintains a higher contrast than the X30 in your room, then IMHO you'd be taking a backwards step in some ways: Of course you won't have 3D (doesn't bother me, maybe you either?). The longer viewing distance you have might not give you as much benefit with the E2Shift feature either.
If it were my money I'd keep the RS35 unless you want 3D. Now you can stop tugging. biggrin.gif

I might have to check out those reviews. The projector is about 18 feet from the screen, the iris is set at 0, and I am using low lamp power. I don't care about 3D too much, especially since the RS 48 / RS4810 don't come with an emitter or glasses.

Thanks for the input.

Mark
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post #570 of 1073
9/26/12 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Although I have pre-ordered the RS4810, I am starting to lean towards sticking with my RS-35 and waiting. I have a 110" (54 x 96) 1.78 aspect ratio screen, and sit at about 1.5 SW. The RS35 has greater contrast (70,000:1) versus the RS48 / RS4810 (50,000:1), according to the advertised specifications. I feel like I am in a tug of war.
Mark

There are benefits to the rs4810, better bulb life, less light loss over time, new improved eshift, sharper, 3D. Thats doesn't mean those features will be noticeable, except for 3D. Strictly 2D, i would find it hard to believe the rs35 will not be better. However, no one knows yet how the newer eshift models will perform yet.
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