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JVC New Projectors Announced - CEDIA 2012 - Page 27

post #781 of 1073
Yah, some of the screen MFR's fudge the numbers, but 1.4 to 1.1 is really bad.
post #782 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

So then if I mounted it from ceiling 15 feet back a carada screen would be about the same as a hp and if not barely a difference in brightness?

Download the "High Power Screen Gain Calc" linked in post 566 of this HP thread to see how much gain an HP screen would provide in your room:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1213577/da-lite-hi-power-new-or-old-what-did-you-get/560_40

The closer your eyes are to the light path, the higher the gain. Post 1 of the High Power thread provides a good overview of the material. (The posts in most of the thread refer to the original 2.8 gain material. The newer 2.4 gain fabric has similar characteristics however.):

http://www.avsforum.com/t/773065/high-power-a-review-part-1/0_40
post #783 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Agreed on the Carada. I have had a Carada CCW and BW at my house and then moved to a true 1.3 ST130 and the brightness difference was noticeable/obvious. 1.0-1.1 for the BW seems much more accurate vs the 1.4 spec. As a side note, I also hate the way Carada packs the screen in the box as it gets pressed up against the frame members and is susceptible to even more wrinkling. Maybe this has changed though as it has been years since I owned one? Both Da-Lite and Stewart (and even my very first Severtsen screen) pack their screens much better and are able to keep the material isolated from the frame members much better.

The Carada BW has been confirmed as a true 1.1 gain for quite a while (1.0 for their cinema white). However, it's a great screen material, there is no visible texture/moire so if you can accommodate the lower real gain, it's a great screen.

I bought mine a couple (make that 3) years ago, and it was packed perfectly, the material was rolled on a large roll and bubble wrapped, it crossed the atlantic without a single mark on it and the company has always been great to deal with. Also their snap-on system is great, as the screen is perfectly tensioned and mounts in... a snap.

So although the real gain is slightly worse, the company is great to deal with and the shipping is beyond reproach.
post #784 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

The Carada BW has been confirmed as a true 1.1 gain for quite a while (1.0 for their cinema white). However, it's a great screen material, there is no visible texture/moire so if you can accommodate the lower real gain, it's a great screen.
I bought mine a couple (make that 3) years ago, and it was packed perfectly, the material was rolled on a large roll and bubble wrapped, it crossed the atlantic without a single mark on it and the company has always been great to deal with. Also their snap-on system is great, as the screen is perfectly tensioned and mounts in... a snap.
So although the real gain is slightly worse, the company is great to deal with and the shipping is beyond reproach.

I did not care for the material either as I found issues with the screen texture that I did not like. In all fairness, I have not read these complaints from others, so apparently it was something that I was sensitive to for whatever reason (lucky me tongue.gif). Stewart (and Da-Lite I think?) puts their screen material in a seperate box within the main box and it keeps the screen more protected vs Carada. I have had 3 Carada screens at my house(either 2 CCW and a BW or the other way around) and ALL 3 had wrinkles when first setup that never fully left in the few weeks I had the screen. Carada has many, many fans, but I am not one of them from what I experienced with the 3 that I owned ALL of which revealed the screen texture issue.

I do agree with you on dealing with the company though. Some of the best customer service I have ever experienced. These guys are awesome to deal with! smile.gif
post #785 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Either that of they've got a stock of the old ones, but I doubt it as most companies just make what they need for a short time ahead.

Look at the new Mitsubishi coming out.. it's built with all the left over parts they had laying around from when the HC9000 was made nearly 2 years ago. Perhaps JVC has a surplus of the RS45/55 panels left over from last year?

At the minimum, there are at least 2 different panels this year. The older model and the updated wire grid for the 56/66. Since the panels that didn't make the cut for the 66 end up in the 56, there's a chance of getting a golden sample 56 with better native contrast than advertised.
post #786 of 1073
My Carada CCW had some wrinkles which were slow to disappear. Eventually they did but after a week or so I was told if they persisted the boss would come out and personally re-screen the frame. I'm happy with the screen and their frame. That said I'd probably opt for the Stewart 1.3 if I were starting over (just for the gain not for any negativity towards Carada).
post #787 of 1073
i have a CCW in my room and I think its a very smooth texture. My SI Gamma 4K has a 1.1 gain and when I saw umr screen review, he rated it to have a higher gain than the BW material. My SI screen is 100in and it is not even close to my HP 2.4 screen, which is 120in. Much bigger screen and a much brighter picture. I have to sit straight back, off to the side so my head is not in the way. That's how I get it at eye level. My couches is straight back against the shelf that I have.
post #788 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Yah, some of the screen MFR's fudge the numbers, but 1.4 to 1.1 is really bad.

Yeah, I don't understand why a respectable company like Carada would fudge the numbers like that.
post #789 of 1073
The Carada frames are great but the screen material could be better, brllliant customer service though. I wasn't happy with the screen material and I emailed them 2 years after I bought the screen, they sent me a replacement screen material free of charge and because it didn't fit well they then shipped me a brand new screen includeing frame!
post #790 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I did not care for the material either as I found issues with the screen texture that I did not like. In all fairness, I have not read these complaints from others, so apparently it was something that I was sensitive to for whatever reason (lucky me tongue.gif). Stewart (and Da-Lite I think?) puts their screen material in a seperate box within the main box and it keeps the screen more protected vs Carada. I have had 3 Carada screens at my house(either 2 CCW and a BW or the other way around) and ALL 3 had wrinkles when first setup that never fully left in the few weeks I had the screen. Carada has many, many fans, but I am not one of them from what I experienced with the 3 that I owned ALL of which revealed the screen texture issue.
I do agree with you on dealing with the company though. Some of the best customer service I have ever experienced. These guys are awesome to deal with! smile.gif

I also notice a "very" slight texture on really bright scenes and panning shots when watching aninemation. Kinda looks like speckles or a layer of dust on the screen. Is that what you were seeing? Also, what screen are u using now? I wish I could go with HP but its not possible in my setup.

I have the Carada BW. (Guess it's not so brilliant however, LOL.)
post #791 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Yeah, I don't understand why a respectable company like Carada would fudge the numbers like that.

They have to do it because almost all companies do it: http://accucalhd.com/documents/accucal_front_projection_screen_report.pdf

If you do your homework, it's not too difficult to find out what the real gain of your screen is.

Now it might be a good time for us to bring this thread back on topic, because all this has very little to do with the new JVC models:)
Edited by Manni01 - 10/2/12 at 9:13am
post #792 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Now it might be a good time for us to bring this thread back on topic, because all this has very little to do with the new JVC models:)
There you go, making sense again... smile.gif
Okay then, I'll play along...wink.gif
I see where GaryB has answered your question and the RS48/4810 lumen output is 1200, not 1300 as you had hoped. Is that going to impact which model you'll test? I'd sure like to see what you think of the 4810.....
post #793 of 1073
hmm.. if it's accurate then it must be the e-shift element responsible for the difference, not the 2nd iris.
post #794 of 1073
Or the CMS....
post #795 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger View Post

Yeah, I don't understand why a respectable company like Carada would fudge the numbers like that.


They feel their competitors fudge the gain numbers and they don't want to be put at a competitive advertising disadvantage by publishing what they freely admit to be the true numbers. At least that is what I have heard and it makes sense to me. Make your decisions based on the real numbers which are reported by many many posting in this forum forum.

Do some research and you will find the gain numbers independently measured by respected calibrators for almost every screen material out there.

There are many screen material factors besides gain, and too often all that one hears in that the loudest speaker is the best.

I recently switched one from a high quality reference screen material with a measured gain of about 1.3 to a high quality reference screen material with a gain of about 1.0. Although the brightness, the picture quality improved significantly. My black pit non reflective HT allowed the switch. As one gains sophistication in evaluating PQ and one buys better projectors which can throw a great picture, gain gets trumped. But gain tends tends to temp the viewer into choosing the louder speaker as being better. If 3D is important, gain is needed for all but the smallest screens.
post #796 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

There you go, making sense again... smile.gif
Okay then, I'll play along...wink.gif
I see where GaryB has answered your question and the RS48/4810 lumen output is 1200, not 1300 as you had hoped. Is that going to impact which model you'll test? I'd sure like to see what you think of the 4810.....

An extra 100 ANSI lumens is essentially irrelevant. Over a 1200 ANSI lumen machine, a 1300 Ansi Lumens machine would have 8 1/3 % more light. To your eyes, it will look only about 3% brighter. I wouldn't make a decision based on going for that extra brightness except if a had a huge screen and if so that increase wouldn't make things very much better. For those situations, machines in this lumens class require going to something like HP2.4 instead of choosing 1300 over 1200.
post #797 of 1073
So Mark,
If I got the RS4810 to replace my RS55 would I miss the specified 30K:1 on/off that I'd be giving up?
post #798 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

The new wire grid polarizers are responsible for the increased CR specs on this years models so it gives them marketing braggadocio. I'd suspect that the lower models use the same wire grids but fall into the low end of the production tolerances.

My information tells me they are two different wire grids.
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post #799 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

My information tells me they are two different wire grids.
Yes that is probably so.
Then again I would not expect them to say they use the RS56 and 66 rejects in the lower two models. rolleyes.gifeek.gif
In the end it matters not. The CR spec is 50K:1 and if they meet that (and I'm sure they will come close if not exceed) then they could use the Flintstone models....biggrin.gif
post #800 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

My information tells me they are two different wire grids.


Me too. Wire grids are expensive and there are better ones out there than even JVC uses. But they are very expensive. So I suspect as one goes up in price, one could use a better wire grid and I suspect that is what JVC has done in its higher priced ones this year.
post #801 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

The CR spec is 50K:1 and if they meet that (and I'm sure they will come close if not exceed) then they could use the Flintstone models....biggrin.gif

Unless Cine4 measures it, then it will be more like 30,000:1 tongue.gif
post #802 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Or the CMS....

Or a filter, that was the reason for the difference in lumens between the rs10 and 20.
post #803 of 1073
Whether one would miss the extra on/off whatever it turns out being would depend on too many factors such as set up that one could enumerate here. The extra 30,000 could be very significant depending on such things as prefered gamma. To me, watching sports at 2.2 gamma it wouldn't make that much difference.
post #804 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Use a drop-pole mount at 15 feet back and lower the projector to around 5.5 feet above the ground, and then you will get enough gain for it to be worth it over the Carada, otherwise the answer is no, the gain will be too close.

I have a projector mounted about 3' behind my head. The center of the lens is about 5.5' above the floor. and I get good gain off of my HP screen. Enough so that a 250 lumen (Marantz in low power) lights up a 106" HP screen with plasma like brightness. Holiday, for your size screen 1.5 gain is going to be very bright. We are talking Iris closed all the way down in low lamp and still getting 16/17 FL.
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post #805 of 1073
I agree, but now we know I was basing it on the Carada being 1.4 gain, and I was wrong, the Carada is a measly 1.1 gain.
So now I must tell him the opposite advice, get the Da-Lite HP or any other screen besides the Carada unless he just wants basically no gain.

OK, finally hooking up the Darbee, funny the box it came in was a lot bigger than I expected...
Test results of how the Darbee affects a projector with a 1:1 pixel mapping issue to be posted in separate thread later after I spend some time watching it.
post #806 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

There you go, making sense again... smile.gif
Okay then, I'll play along...wink.gif
I see where GaryB has answered your question and the RS48/4810 lumen output is 1200, not 1300 as you had hoped. Is that going to impact which model you'll test? I'd sure like to see what you think of the 4810.....

Let's try to be positive about this:)
I can't believe that the 50000:1 of the rs46 is due to raised black levels, so if the RS48 has the same 50000:1 but a lower max brightness, it can only mean that it's tuned to have a lower black floor, which would suit me fine in my bat cave as long as the new lamp holds all its promises, and the brightness in 3D is improved as well.
So I'm more than ever interested in the rs48, but I'll really have to evaluate one before I commit to an upgrade:).
post #807 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Now it might be a good time for us to bring this thread back on topic, because all this has very little to do with the new JVC models:)

Thanks! eek.gif
post #808 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Whether one would miss the extra on/off whatever it turns out being would depend on too many factors such as set up that one could enumerate here. The extra 30,000 could be very significant depending on such things as prefered gamma. To me, watching sports at 2.2 gamma it wouldn't make that much difference.

Switch that to dark movies like Scifi and raise the gama and it can make much more of a difference. Mark you had the word HP in your post above and not a disparaging word against it. smile.gif Shoot me your number. I was on the phone when you called.
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post #809 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

My thinking is that it's gonna be a minimum of 3 years for an affordable 4k JVC projector to come out which is exactly the warranty length of the RS4810 I have preordered. wink.gif
Mike

Only time will tell concerning affordable 4K, but it is coming. As pointed out, Sony already has one and my guess is that they will be pushing 4K in 2013. That may explain why they're only coming out with one new model this year. With that in mind, I'd say that you'll see affordable Sony 4K models in exactly one year. And don't forget that Red is still working on their 4K projector.

Bottom line, my point about putting your money into things that don't evolve quickly still stands. I look for the best value in a PJ knowing that it I will eventually replace it with the next "big thing". Skimping on speakers, seats, etc. just doesn't make much sense. However, finding the sweat spot in PJs is always a good idea IMHO. I think that the Epson 5010 was a good choice this year. If JVC fixed truly their lamp issues, then the RS4810 just might be the PJ to buy in early 2013 at AVS pre-release prices.
post #810 of 1073
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevenjw View Post

Only time will tell concerning affordable 4K, but it is coming. As pointed out, Sony already has one and my guess is that they will be pushing 4K in 2013. That may explain why they're only coming out with one new model this year. With that in mind, I'd say that you'll see affordable Sony 4K models in exactly one year. And don't forget that Red is still working on their 4K projector.
Bottom line, my point about putting your money into things that don't evolve quickly still stands. I look for the best value in a PJ knowing that it I will eventually replace it with the next "big thing". Skimping on speakers, seats, etc. just doesn't make much sense. However, finding the sweat spot in PJs is always a good idea IMHO. I think that the Epson 5010 was a good choice this year. If JVC fixed truly their lamp issues, then the RS4810 just might be the PJ to buy in early 2013 at AVS pre-release prices.

preorder on the JVC's ends when the projectors start shipping. So expect that to be around the end of November. I am being told that will be strictly enforced this year.
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