AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › 4K… I have Seen The Light
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

4K… I have Seen The Light - Page 6

post #151 of 557
9/12/12 at 8:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chazz77 View Post

In the room where Sony was comparing the 84" Sony 4k to the 80" Sharp, the content was 4k generated to the Sony and 1080p to the Sharp; same images. We started out at 3 feet away, and the difference was very noticeable. They asked we move back to 11 feet, and the clarity of the image, in this case of some trees in the background, remained sharper and clearer on the Sony. This was witnessed by a group of about 15 in my session. There was one person in that group who kept saying, "I don't see it" even at the closer distance. People joked that he must be a Sharp dealer...

Current TV viewing scenario starts at 3-4 PH. For the 84", the 3 feet is computer monitor scenario, 11 feet is till below 3PH. Realistic comparison 4K/2K distance would be then 15 feet. But one can agree that with displays of 84" and more, people may be inclined to watch at distances less than 3PH an then the 4K would make sense.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #152 of 557
9/12/12 at 9:01am
People that think that there is no use for extra resolution have a very limited imagination...

Once we get to the point where we can no longer discern pixels the next step is obvious:
3D pixels. And no, i don't mean Stereo 3d. But actual 3d, where even the slightest change in position will change your perspective just like in the real world. But i'm getting a bit ahead of myself.
The fact is that "8K" resolution wouldn't be enough resolution for a fully detailed representation of reality from every angle (like say, a Hollodeck like screen. So not a Hollodeck from the object capability, just the visual one)

In 20 years we'll be wondering why we wasted so much time looking at small windows for our entertainment needs.
Reply
Reply
post #153 of 557
9/12/12 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post

People that think that there is no use for extra resolution have a very limited imagination...
Once we get to the point where we can no longer discern pixels the next step is obvious:
3D pixels. And no, i don't mean Stereo 3d. But actual 3d, where even the slightest change in position will change your perspective just like in the real world. But i'm getting a bit ahead of myself.
The fact is that "8K" resolution wouldn't be enough resolution for a fully detailed representation of reality from every angle (like say, a Hollodeck like screen. So not a Hollodeck from the object capability, just the visual one)
In 20 years we'll be wondering why we wasted so much time looking at small windows for our entertainment needs.

Sounds conceptually awesome! I personally love the retina display on my new ipad. i would love to see that kind of resolution on a 120" screen.

I agree with you in the sense that I believe the goal of the AV world should be absolute realizm.
Reply
Reply
post #154 of 557
9/12/12 at 10:45am
Quote:
If your story is true - it's nothing weird. You were comparing image with 63 pixels per degree to one with 121 pixels per degree ("Retina" vs. double the "Retina").
If that was really 11 feet as you say. How do you know it was exactly 11 feet?

It was probably closer to 12 feet; it approximated a 12 foot room in my own home.. However, it has to be seen and not just looked at on paper. I can only speak for the group session I was in; there were multiple sessions throughout CEDIA.
Quote:
What happened to 21x9 aspect ratio?
Sony website says the screen is 16x9 ratio.
Is this another format we'll shell out all our money for?

Rhetorical or not, on the projector there are memory settings to automatically change to different aspect ratios, including 21:9. This replaces the need for an expensive anamorphic lens. The higher resolution still delivers more than a non-4k device even with cropping, without any chromatic aberrations.
Reply
Reply
post #155 of 557
9/12/12 at 11:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I agree with you in the sense that I believe the goal of the AV world should be absolute realism.

Unfortunately NHK Integral 3D TV, Autostereoscopic ("glasses free") 3D TV, is not 'scheduled to be consumer ready' as the follow-on home broadcast TV technology after 8k4k Full UHDTV until sometime in the 2030|2040|2050 timeframe!
_
_
_
Reply
Reply
post #156 of 557
9/12/12 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Set271 View Post

I have perfect 20/20 vision. It's not natural to put on vision altering glasses that change our normal 3 dimensional binocular vision with flickering/double-vision screens. In 30 years we'll all find out that using these 3D glasses were just as bad as putting a cell phone up to our ears.

I think eye-muscle problem is quite separate from your vision level: one does not exclude the other.
Reply
Reply
post #157 of 557
9/13/12 at 8:09am
Thanks for the 'tinfoil hat' comment! Way to bring down the thread, Kamus. Madison Avenue loves people to respond to their commercial ads and buy blindly without any thought or research. Which, the opposite, is what this forum is all about. Kudos, anyway.
Reply
Reply
post #158 of 557
9/17/12 at 5:47pm
I saw that thing, looks great.
One of my reps was telling me that if you play playstation 3 with two players and you put the 3d glasses on you can both use the whole screen and the other player wont see what you see. ( so no more split screen)
Reply
Reply
post #159 of 557
9/18/12 at 11:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Set271 View Post

I have perfect 20/20 vision. It's not natural to put on vision altering glasses that change our normal 3 dimensional binocular vision with flickering/double-vision screens. In 30 years we'll all find out that using these 3D glasses were just as bad as putting a cell phone up to our ears.

You can have 20/20 vision and still have an eye muscle imbalance. It only affects you when you watch 3D content with 3D glasses. You get the same symptoms whether you are using passive polarized or active shutter 3D glasses?
Reply
Reply
post #160 of 557
9/18/12 at 11:21pm
A what if question . . .

How would you feel about buying a very expenisve 4K display and having to wait at least 3 years before you could get any 4K content?

A real question . . .

When did you buy your first HDTV and did you have access to HD content like OTA or SAT?
Reply
Reply
post #161 of 557
9/19/12 at 1:02pm
Hi all,

Historically, didn't we always get the hardware first before the content came out? I remember dvd players were out way before we started getting dvd movies. the same goes for blu ray. 720p tv came out first, then blu ray/hd dvd players before we started to see movies out on these formats. Therefore, I am seeing the same pattern here as far as 4k format goes. the first of 4k tv/ monitors are starting to come out, soon enough, we'll have hardware like, the ps4, 4k blu ray players, then ultimately, 4k media will follow.
Reply
Reply
post #162 of 557
9/19/12 at 1:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaseng View Post

Hi all,
Historically, didn't we always get the hardware first before the content came out? I remember dvd players were out way before we started getting dvd movies. the same goes for blu ray. 720p tv came out first, then blu ray/hd dvd players before we started to see movies out on these formats. Therefore, I am seeing the same pattern here as far as 4k format goes. the first of 4k tv/ monitors are starting to come out, soon enough, we'll have hardware like, the ps4, 4k blu ray players, then ultimately, 4k media will follow.

DVD players were released in the USA in select cities in March 1997 and there were definitely a bunch of DVDs that were available at the time of DVD's release. I know. I was one of the first on line at Laserland in L.I to buy a Toshiba DVD player and 20 DVDs to go with it on release day. Many were in the new "enhanced for 16x9" format.

HDTV OTA started in 1998 - around the same time that HDTVs themselves became available. Most were RPTVs and Direct View TVs.

4K TV is totally different. When they go on sale this year there will be no OTA content, no physical media content. Having a 4K TV and only being able to upscale HD on it is like having a Ferrari with a governor on it limitting it to 55 MPH.
Reply
Reply
post #163 of 557
9/19/12 at 1:37pm
If we're looking for completely realistic looking images we need completely realistic source material. Most images we have available to watch are 35mm film at 24fps. New technology is not going to make that look much more realistic than we have now. If there is a visible difference to 4K home theater at all I doubt it will improve 35mm film that much.
Reply
Reply
post #164 of 557
9/20/12 at 8:46am
Well, HD CRT FP displays were available and being used in homes years before HD was available. Anamorphic DVD came out along with devices to scale DVD to match the higher resolution of the displays (very expensive at the time) which helped use more of the HD displays capability. Later, as Lee stated, HD OTA came along then DTheater, then HDDVD,then BD. The hardware creates the demand for the software now as it did in the mid nineties. It would make no sense to create software with no install base of displays to use it but if the promise of it's release exists then the sales of the hardware will happen but likely very slowly.

Art
Reply
Reply
post #165 of 557
9/20/12 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Well, HD CRT FP displays were available and being used in homes years before HD was available. Anamorphic DVD came out along with devices to scale DVD to match the higher resolution of the displays (very expensive at the time) which helped use more of the HD displays capability. Later, as Lee stated, HD OTA came along then DTheater, then HDDVD,then BD. The hardware creates the demand for the software now as it did in the mid nineties. It would make no sense to create software with no install base of displays to use it but if the promise of it's release exists then the sales of the hardware will happen but likely very slowly.
Art

But that is exactly what they did for HDTV. It was a broad decision that we would change to HDTV. It was an industry wide effort with government approval. Counting FPTVs that could handle HD is counting a super small segement of the market back in 1997. They were professional Graphics Grade projectors that a few people were using for video in their home theaters.

HDTV was always destined to be a mass market product. I cannot say the same for 4K
Reply
Reply
post #166 of 557
9/20/12 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Well, HD CRT FP displays were available and being used in homes years before HD was available. Art

Uh, Barco was just getting out of the 7" units in the second half of the 80s, a few years before the launch of HDTV services, like the Winter Olympics in France, or the regular service of TV Plus.
Reply
Reply
post #167 of 557
9/20/12 at 11:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

DVD players were released in the USA in select cities in March 1997 and there were definitely a bunch of DVDs that were available at the time of DVD's release. I know. I was one of the first on line at Laserland in L.I to buy a Toshiba DVD player and 20 DVDs to go with it on release day. Many were in the new "enhanced for 16x9" format.
HDTV OTA started in 1998 - around the same time that HDTVs themselves became available. Most were RPTVs and Direct View TVs.
4K TV is totally different. When they go on sale this year there will be no OTA content, no physical media content. Having a 4K TV and only being able to upscale HD on it is like having a Ferrari with a governor on it limitting it to 55 MPH.

Lee:

I loved Laserland, greatest selection of Laser Discs then DVD's around. A sad victim of the internet
Reply
Reply
post #168 of 557
9/20/12 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post

Lee:
I loved Laserland, greatest selection of Laser Discs then DVD's around. A sad victim of the internet

They are gone? I moved out of L.I. back in April 2002 and haven't been back since.
Reply
Reply
post #169 of 557
9/21/12 at 12:59pm
I did not read all of the posts on this topic, but I can see 4K being relevant on larger TV's where picture quality starts to degrade as sets get bigger and bigger at 1080p resolution. I know when I go to the store and see 720p sets, I can immediately notice the screen door effect even on 42" sets and it can be really bad on 50" sets. I saw the Sharp 80" 1080p TV's when they first came out and did not notice the same screen door effect, but I felt 1080p resolution did limit how good it could/would otherwise look with 4K. Not enough to be a deal breaker, but I welcome these new sets coming out and am sure they will be affordable to the average consumer within five years. It's really also about having content available.
Reply
Reply
post #170 of 557
9/21/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

DVD players were released in the USA in select cities in March 1997 and there were definitely a bunch of DVDs that were available at the time of DVD's release. I know. I was one of the first on line at Laserland in L.I to buy a Toshiba DVD player and 20 DVDs to go with it on release day. Many were in the new "enhanced for 16x9" format.

Those comments sure brought back memories! I remember buying a pre-packaged home theatre setup in 1996 knowing that DVD was soon coming out, but I scoffed at it at the time thinking it wasn't going to be a big deal. Within a few years of DVD coming out, I had pretty much abandoned VHS entirely! I think at the time we had gotten used to tapes as being the norm, although I should have seen things a bit more clearer knowing what happened to audio cassettes.
Reply
Reply
post #171 of 557
9/21/12 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mice View Post

Those comments sure brought back memories! I remember buying a pre-packaged home theatre setup in 1996 knowing that DVD was soon coming out, but I scoffed at it at the time thinking it wasn't going to be a big deal. Within a few years of DVD coming out, I had pretty much abandoned VHS entirely! I think at the time we had gotten used to tapes as being the norm, although I should have seen things a bit more clearer knowing what happened to audio cassettes.

Reminds me of when Mylar paper tape came out. Pretty rugged. I always wondered how much of it would be required for a movie.....
Reply
Reply
post #172 of 557
9/21/12 at 4:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mice View Post

Those comments sure brought back memories! I remember buying a pre-packaged home theatre setup in 1996 knowing that DVD was soon coming out, but I scoffed at it at the time thinking it wasn't going to be a big deal. Within a few years of DVD coming out, I had pretty much abandoned VHS entirely! I think at the time we had gotten used to tapes as being the norm, although I should have seen things a bit more clearer knowing what happened to audio cassettes.

As an avid LD collector, it was very clear that holding a DVD with a two hour movie on it in one hand and an LD in the other and not see where the future was headed. Never got into collecting VHS. The quality just wasn't there. Any display over 25" showed this.
Reply
Reply
post #173 of 557
9/21/12 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Reminds me of when Mylar paper tape came out. Pretty rugged. I always wondered how much of it would be required for a movie.....

Paper Tape was good for datasets in the few dozen kilobyte range. Totally impractical for video with it's megabytes datasets.
Reply
Reply
post #174 of 557
9/21/12 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Paper Tape was good for datasets in the few dozen kilobyte range. Totally impractical for video with it's megabytes datasets.
......you missed the sarcasm.....
Reply
Reply
post #175 of 557
9/21/12 at 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

......you missed the sarcasm.....

Would have helped if you added a biggrin.gif or a tongue.gif
Reply
Reply
post #176 of 557
9/21/12 at 4:44pm
I just saw blank TDK 100GB BD-RXL today . It said it conforms to BD-R standard. Has anyone used it? Hopefully it should be able to hold 4K content with some decent compression codec that they can develop?
If the BD-R drives capable of reading BD-XL can read it , it shouldn't be a problem to develop Blu-Ray players to read these either.

Mani
Reply
Reply
post #177 of 557
9/21/12 at 5:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post

I just saw blank TDK 100GB BD-RXL today . It said it conforms to BD-R standard. Has anyone used it? Hopefully it should be able to hold 4K content with some decent compression codec that they can develop?
If the BD-R drives capable of reading BD-XL can read it , it shouldn't be a problem to develop Blu-Ray players to read these either.
Mani

You can't use BD-Rs for machine stamped replicated movies. You have to use BD-ROMs.The biggest BD-ROM is the Dual Layer 50GB.
Reply
Reply
post #178 of 557
9/21/12 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

You can't use BD-Rs for machine stamped replicated movies. You have to use BD-ROMs.The biggest BD-ROM is the Dual Layer 50GB.

But if they can manufacture 100 GB BD-R's, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to manufacture 100GB BD-ROM's??
Reply
Reply
post #179 of 557
9/21/12 at 6:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mani View Post

But if they can manufacture 100 GB BD-R's, there is no reason they shouldn't be able to manufacture 100GB BD-ROM's??

Two totally different manufacturing processes.

The industry has never mass produced a 4 layer optical disc (ROM). There was limited (very) production of 3 layer but it was a mixture of red and blue laser layers (called a BD Hybrid and I believe used only once in Japan for a TV series called Code Blue) not 3 layers of blue laser (ROM).

Each time you add a layer, your manufacturing difficulty goes up geometerically while your yield rate drops just as much.

You can do a 2160P movie on a DL 50GB disc. Just have to use the new H.265 HEVC compression codec and spin the disc faster than normal speed to get the bit rate up, just like they do for 3D BD where the disc spins at 2X speed and the total bit rate is 50% higher than a regular BD.
Edited by Lee Stewart - 9/21/12 at 6:36pm
Reply
Reply
post #180 of 557
9/21/12 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Two totally different manufacturing processes.
Sony invented DVR Blue = BD-R. First shown in 2000. Recorders came out in April 2003. It took 3+ more years to finalize the specs for BD-ROM and begin manufacturing BD ROMs - June 2006
The industry has never mass produced a 4 layer optical disc (ROM). There was limited (very) production of 3 layer but it was a mixture of red and blue laser layers not 3 layers of blue laser (ROM).
I guess that goes with the demand and ROI. If Sony is going to invest in 4K material/media, I am sure it wont take them long to manufacture 100GB /4 layer BD ROM. Till now they didn't have any incentive to make one, as 50 GB was more than enough to meet 1080p Blu Ray specs.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › 4K… I have Seen The Light