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Official OPPO BDP-103/BDP-105 Anticipation Thread - Page 90

post #2671 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The reality is that people making high quality recordings -- made with maximal care and attention to detail -- are more likely to author those for high bit rate rather than CD rate. The actual frequency and dynamic range in the RESULT might not be better than if they had stuck to CD rate, but odds are they feel more comfortable working at the higher rate.

If I knew another version had used more care, technique, better equipment, etc. during mastering I would chose it virtually regardless of format. But comparing differently mastered sources is not what the article deals with:
"This paper presented listeners with a choice between high-rate DVD-A/SACD content, chosen by high-definition audio advocates to show off high-def's superiority, and that same content resampled on the spot down to 16-bit / 44.1kHz Compact Disc rate."
The same content resampled on the spot - and even without dithering (which I suspect would show up at the very end of a reverb tail or fade out when listening at very high volume levels via headphones).

Quote:
Next the sampling rate: Digital audio gets "processed". Perhaps quite a lot. (Such processing is not necessarily a bad thing!) Even though 44.1KHz may be perfectly adequate to carry the desired end result in frequency range, you have to be very careful when processing that digital audio data stream to keep from introducing artifacts which can look a lot like the "aliasing" that happens if you try to force too high frequency of content audio into that 44.1KHz. Aliasing doesn't affect just the frequencies that are too high for the sampling rate. It affects ALL THE LOWER frequencies too. So the audio engineers need to be sure they've pre-filtered out the high stuff before digitizing, or the result WILL be screwed up.
Now using a higher sampling rate means you can use a higher filter (as if the human ear could really hear those higher frequencies), but that's not where I'm going. Where I'm going is that making digital audio processing math work at lower sampling rates is tricky stuff! Operating at a higher sampling rate takes more processor power, but you are less likely to trip over a goof in the algorithms that introduces aliasing-like artifacts.
So these are two, good arguments for doing the audio engineering at high bit rate.

The focus of the article as I view it is in listing to a finished product, sans processing, as an audiophile might - the only processing would be an analog volume control. Yes, forcing "too high frequency of content audio into that 44.1KHz" will indeed cause aliasing artifacts, but is there an ADC in common use that doesn't properly handle this? And when it comes to signal processing the math is known and techniques of upsampling, oversampling, etc. are generally properly applied. I agree that if you want to later digitally process the material a higher bit rate is advantageous for the same reasons it is now common place during recording, processing and mastering.

All things being equal there may be some advantage to SACD/DVD_audio vs. CD regardless of bit rate, and that is whether or not those formats have adequate error correction, such as a data CD might, providing for 100% reliable data transfer, which a Redbook CD doesn't (if you rip a CD multiple times, or on different equipment, are the files all identical?). Although this is not an issue raised in the article - it's focused on downloads.

Quote:
Of course if just do that willy-nilly, without regard to whether you are carrying ultrasonics along to the final result or any of the rest of the litany of problems he's worrying about, then sure the end result is not "best".
But operating at lower bit rate comes with its own pitfalls! Those algorithmic artifacts for example.
So here's my take: You can't assume a recording is good simply because it is delivered as 192KHz 24-bit.
But you also can't assume it is bad!

Granted. But if (under the conditions as presented) the higher bit rate file contains ultrasonic information and your delivery chain cannot either properly reproduce it or filter it out then there a good chance that it will sound worse than the lower bit rate file. And, as I stated in a previous post, the 192kHz example file, which should be silent, does create audible artifacts through one of my audio chains.

Quote:
The proof is simple: A 192KHz 24-bit data stream can contain A BIT-PERFECT IMAGE of a 44.1KHz 16-bit data stream. So who's to say it doesn't?
Q.E.D.

Is this true? Clearly true with a 16bit/48kHz file (evenly divisible), but with a 44.1kHz file the resampling isn't as straightforward.

Quote:
It all comes down to how much care was taken in the recording and audio engineering process. There is nothing INHERENTLY bad about 192KHz 24-bit.
By the way, those same, digital audio processing gotchas come into play in the home theater gear that's trying to render the audio track.

Agreed. And is nothing inherently wrong with any file format that accomplishes its objective. And if you have gear that can properly handle ultrasonics all the better - but I doubt, under the conditions of the article, that it will sound any better, will be a slower download, and take up more space; and require more power - if your gear doesn't filter the ultrasonics out you will need to amplify the stuff you can't hear as well as that that you can (and maybe your overhead and transients will be negatively affected).

Chris
post #2672 of 2827
There is also the work by Bob Craven at Meridian on apodizing filters where he shows that adding a brick wall filter to eliminate the supra-Nyquist frequencies can also cause small but possibly audible effects - essentially time smear.

To solve this he suggests a filtering technique that requires at least a 88.2 kHz sampling rate. This filtering probably should be done at the mastering step.

Supposedly some BD's are being mastered with this technique.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/dolby174-upsamples-apodizes-truehd
post #2673 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by a3aan View Post

Any one listened to their OPPO 105 with these files? Was is silent?

Not silent on my Oppo, could hear sound on all files (needed to turn the volume up) via direct XLR to amp as well headphone out.
I tend to believe that it is a pretty clear cut case the ultrasonics can be, and maybe usually are, detrimental to audio reproduction.

Chris
post #2674 of 2827
Hi.

I've just received my new oppo 105eu, changing from 95eu (live in Norway).

The player is great. very useful conections on the rear side, and no fan (my was very noisy,...)

I have a synology 411 nas witch is a great nas.
I stream movie and music (mp3 & flac) from the nas.

Can anyone help with a smaler issue?
When I go to the home menu -> network -> nas -> music, and navigate trough the folders, the folder is noe sorted by name... how can I change the sorting of the files and folders?

It's a minor problem, but its a problem.. Guess this is the site to get some answer on this issue.

Please help me out with this one.


smile.gif
post #2675 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegelman View Post

Hi.

I've just received my new oppo 105eu, changing from 95eu (live in Norway).

The player is great. very useful conections on the rear side, and no fan (my was very noisy,...)

I have a synology 411 nas witch is a great nas.
I stream movie and music (mp3 & flac) from the nas.

Can anyone help with a smaler issue?
When I go to the home menu -> network -> nas -> music, and navigate trough the folders, the folder is noe sorted by name... how can I change the sorting of the files and folders?

It's a minor problem, but its a problem.. Guess this is the site to get some answer on this issue.

Please help me out with this one.


smile.gif

Welcome to AVSForum.

SMB network access is still experimental. File sorting is not working correctly yet. We hope for improvements in future firmware.

Your NAS probably also has a DLNA server: sorting is determined by the server in that case.

-Bill
post #2676 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkphader View Post

Not silent on my Oppo, could hear sound on all files (needed to turn the volume up) via direct XLR to amp as well headphone out.
I tend to believe that it is a pretty clear cut case the ultrasonics can be, and maybe usually are, detrimental to audio reproduction.
Chris

Chris, what are the other components in your system please?
post #2677 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

Chris, what are the other components in your system please?

Power amp is a Hafler P3000, headphones are Sennheiser RS 180 (wireless), speakers are NHT 2.9's (thank you Ken Kantor!).
post #2678 of 2827
^^^
Thank you! I have a fellow audiophile friend who had the same speakers you have in his second system. During that particular period in time we both had Martin Logans in our systems. I eventually changed back to a cone dynamic speaker (Wilson WP/7) after hearing the NHT's. Noise or no noise I still prefer my lossless 24/96 Blu-ray discs over CD for audio.They are doing something right, trust your ears.
Edited by Sharp1080 - 12/2/12 at 12:36pm
post #2679 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Welcome to AVSForum.
SMB network access is still experimental. File sorting is not working correctly yet. We hope for improvements in future firmware.
Your NAS probably also has a DLNA server: sorting is determined by the server in that case.
-Bill


Thanx for quick answer Bill.
I can use an app on the nas and explore/sort the files there.
post #2680 of 2827
Thanx for quick answer Bill.
I can use an app on the nas and explore/sort the files there.



By the way... the oppo 95 sorted the files and folders alphabetically.... Why not the 105?
post #2681 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegelman View Post

Thanx for quick answer Bill.
I can use an app on the nas and explore/sort the files there.



By the way... the oppo 95 sorted the files and folders alphabetically.... Why not the 105?

The 95 doesn't have SMB; this is an issue of the new SMB facility on the 103/105.

Once upon a time the OPPO players did have sorting errors on locally attached media; this also was addressed by a firmware update.

-Bill
post #2682 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

Connecting the ATV to the 103 via HDMI will let me use and take advantage of the Oppo's excellent video scaling. Basically turning the 103 into an external VP. I will still be using the DAC's in my pre/pro.

Scaling what ? Current ATV outputs 1080p already.
post #2683 of 2827
DVD rips?
post #2684 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlach View Post

DVD rips?

Could you repeat the question?

-Bill
post #2685 of 2827
^ As ye rip, so shall ye sew?
--Bob
post #2686 of 2827
In the UK, authorized reseller Audiocom International says they now have hardware modified, SD-DVD "Region-Free" *AND* Blu-ray "Multi-Zone" BDP-103EU units "In Stock":

http://www.audiocominternational.com/blu-ray-players/121-oppo-bdp-103eu-region-free-multi-zone.html

Again, for newbies: OPPO can not ship "Region-Free" or "Multi-Zone" players (due to Blu-ray licensing), so doing this involves opening up the player and adding somebody else's hardware mod. I don't know who Audiocom is using as the source of their mod, or if it is something they did on their own.

They state that the same thing for the BDP-105EU will be available on December 14.

This is not meant as any sort of recommendation of Audiocom. I've had no dealings with them myself. This is just posted as evidence that such mods really are shipping from established sources (rather than mysterious outfits posting on eBay).

This timing all makes sense given other reports, but it still remains the case that we've yet to have ANY CONFIRMATION posted here from owners who've actually received and tried such a hardware-modified, Blu-ray "Multi-Zone" player.

I'll open the oven door a few times to let the smell of freshly baked Cookies waft over the Internet....
--Bob
Edited by Bob Pariseau - 12/3/12 at 4:35am
post #2687 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by a3aan View Post

Any one listened to their OPPO 105 with these files? Was is silent?

I hope that you hear them. I did a spectral analysis of those files and they weren't done right. They DO have audible components in them. If I have time, I'll make some that are actually useful to test with... but that being said, everyone who has heard properly mastered SACD and hi-res PCM know that they sound better, even if it's only because the studios are not doing as good a job with 44.1/16 as they could. That includes proper dither/noise shaping to answer the comment about requiring 20-bit. 16-bit audio can reproduce more than 96dB of SNR in a frequency band if the noise is shaped to other frequencies. This is from a guy who participated in a audio codec standard in Japan that does just that to improve good old 8-bit (A-law) phone lines.
post #2688 of 2827
About SMB on the BDP-93 and 95, I got this answer from OPPO: "Unfortunately these players lack bi-directional feedback over Wireless and Ethernet, so will not be able to add these networking protocols to a future firmware release."

Sounds like a cheesy excuse (since when Samba can't work on a non- full-duplex network?)
post #2689 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by lap777 View Post

About SMB on the BDP-93 and 95, I got this answer from OPPO: "Unfortunately these players lack bi-directional feedback over Wireless and Ethernet, so will not be able to add these networking protocols to a future firmware release."
Sounds like a cheesy excuse (since when Samba can't work on a non- full-duplex network?)

That excuse makes no sense. What do they even mean by "bi-directional feedback"?
post #2690 of 2827
^ I suspect whoever posted that answer was momentarily confusing DLNA Digital Media Renderer support with SMB support (both of which are new for the 103/105). There is no way to query the 83/93/95 about their status over the network. E.g., is the player playing or paused? What's the current location of playback? That sort of thing.

I actually don't know the real, technical limitation that's specific to the SMB question, but I suspect it is simply that SMB support is not offered by the SOC vendor for that generation of processor chip. Odds of getting them to add that functionality to their older chips is pretty slim.
--Bob
post #2691 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

Scaling what ? Current ATV outputs 1080p already.


He might have ATV2 just like I have which only output to 720p

Djoel
post #2692 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I actually don't know the real, technical limitation that's specific to the SMB question, but I suspect it is simply that SMB support is not offered by the SOC vendor for that generation of processor chip.

The sounds like the real answer :-)
post #2693 of 2827
if i absolutely don't need multichannel
but if i do care about the stereo sound quality
which of bdp103 and bdp105 should i get?
post #2694 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by goohsm View Post

if i absolutely don't need multichannel
but if i do care about the stereo sound quality
which of bdp103 and bdp105 should i get?

Number of channels is irrelevant.  Mode of interconnection and to what are the issues.  Will you be connecting the Oppo analog outputs to an analog amplification system or will you be connecting it to something digital?

post #2695 of 2827
i will be connecting the oppo analog outputs to my power amp.
so i would need good quality audio signal.

i have a question, is it true that oppo95/oppo105 have audio lantency/lag with dedicated two channel outputs?
that would be a big bumper for me

lastly, would BDP-103/BDP-105 be a significant improvement over
ps3 + benchmark dac1? both in video quality and 2channel audio quality?
post #2696 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by goohsm View Post

i will be connecting the oppo analog outputs to my power amp.
so i would need good quality audio signal.
i have a question, is it true that oppo95/oppo105 have audio lantency/lag with dedicated two channel outputs?
that would be a big bumper for me
lastly, would BDP-103/BDP-105 be a significant improvement over
ps3 + benchmark dac1? both in video quality and 2channel audio quality?

The superior DACs and output stages of the 105 would be advantageous in that configuration.

I have not had any problems with A/V synch but I use the players with a processor.

I have no experience with the PS3+Benchmark.

post #2697 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The superior DACs and output stages of the 105 would be advantageous in that configuration.
I have not had any problems with A/V synch but I use the players with a processor.
I have no experience with the PS3+Benchmark.

Kal if possible a small favor please if you have the time? I know that you are reviewing and writing. If you have it available can you try playing the Blu-ray disc Watchmen directors cut using the 103 or 105 thru the Classe SSP-800 if you still have it around? I wanted to confirm if your BDP-105 playing thru the SSP-800 combo shows the same lip synch issue? It's the only disc that I have had a lip synch issue with the Oppo 105. If not disregard just saying hello wink.gif
post #2698 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post


Kal if possible a small favor please if you have the time? I know that you are reviewing and writing. If you have it available can you try playing the Blu-ray disc Watchmen directors cut using the 103 or 105 thru the Classe SSP-800 if you still have it around? I wanted to confirm if your BDP-105 playing thru the SSP-800 combo shows the same lip synch issue? It's the only disc that I have had a lip synch issue with the Oppo 105. If not disregard just saying hello wink.gif

Sorry but I cannot help.  I do not have the Classe prepro now nor do I have that BD.

post #2699 of 2827
I've had my 105 in operation for three weeks now. As mentioned in a previous post I'm using it as my pre/pro. It replaces a Marantz AV8003. I realized that the only functions this $2,500 pre/pro was performing in the system was switching between broadcast tv and playing discs in addition to volume control. I'm sure the DACs in the 105 are as good as the Marantz, if not better. So what I'm I missing taking the Marantz out of the system? No radio tuner. Never used it. For background music during the day I use the cable music channels. No Accustic EQ. Never used that either. No Audyssey. Tape measure and trusty old Radio Shack SPL meter are good enough for me. Have I missed anything?
post #2700 of 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by elphillips View Post

I've had my 105 in operation for three weeks now. As mentioned in a previous post I'm using it as my pre/pro. It replaces a Marantz AV8003. I realized that the only functions this $2,500 pre/pro was performing in the system was switching between broadcast tv and playing discs in addition to volume control. I'm sure the DACs in the 105 are as good as the Marantz, if not better. So what I'm I missing taking the Marantz out of the system? No radio tuner. Never used it. For background music during the day I use the cable music channels. No Accustic EQ. Never used that either. No Audyssey. Tape measure and trusty old Radio Shack SPL meter are good enough for me. Have I missed anything?

I recently started using the 105 as a pre/pro as well. What I really miss is the volume control on the unit itself. Sometimes I have the system on loud volume and the phone rings. And this is when I can't find the remote to turn down the music. I really miss being able to walk up to the unit and use it's volume knob to turn it down quickly!
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