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Darbee Fidelio Demoed at CEDIA - Page 2

post #31 of 69
9/11/12 at 11:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

I think it clear that we here would like even better more sophisticated Darbeevision procession . Beyong that, what would you guys like? Tell Darbeevision by posting here. The product will happen and it will be priced at about $2K..

So we have a high end piece of hardware in search of a function? This seems backwards to me, but what do I know.

With a fair amount of stereoscopic 3D content now available, how about a function to take 3D video and Darbee it down into a single 2D image with the depth information embedded as faithfully as possible? This was the original version of the technology wasn't it? Options to add more Darbee in addition to what depth is there in the left/right disparity might also be nice, as many 3D movies have weak depth. This would allow people who dislike stereoscopic 3D for whatever reason to nonetheless get some benefit from it.
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post #32 of 69
9/12/12 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

The unit at Cedia was a mock up. It employed a Darblet to do the processing...

...what the machine will actually do has not been determined.

I'm quoting selectively here but you can jump to the original post and judge whether or not this is fair in context. Honestly, while there was a steady stream of negative posts in this thread, I was giving the Fidelio the benefit of the doubt until this above post. It appears that Darbee has decided the price and the processors, but not what to do with them. As a very proud owner of a Darblet and a big fan of the 3D theory and neuroscience behind the technology, as well the practical results, this is disappointing. I appreciate the community aspect, and the desire to listen to what the market wants, but with a slick mock up design and a $2000 price tag, there needs to be some vision. Darbee needs to tell us what amazing things can be done for us at $2000, not ask us to imagine what would be worth $2000. The technology is yours. Own it. You've impressed us once with the Darblet which does things we've never seen before at a reasonable price. If there is to be a significantly higher-end unit, it needs to build on that concretely.
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post #33 of 69
9/12/12 at 7:48am
Its a digital world and a signal is just bits. If you have the crunch power and inputs and outputs with switching capability, you can do most anything. You just need the crunching horsepower and the software to perform what you like. The platform is soft and the future of it is great. I am sure the Darbee folks have ideas for functionality but they must bring it out to what the market wants. Early adopters are the early market. But yes, at this point, the engine is ready, the software and functions are in many ways yet to be created.
Edited by AV Science Sales 4 - 9/12/12 at 8:40pm
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post #34 of 69
9/12/12 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

I JUST WROTE A LONG POST SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT NUT MY MACHINE LOCKED UP AND I LOST ITI. I GUESS i WILL POST IT AGAIN TOMORROW. Most of the posts in this thread are dead wrong.
The unit at Cedia was a mock up. It employed a Darblet to do the processing with a video monitoring screen and some video EQ readout. The hardware is set re HDMI inputs and switching but what the machine will actually do has not been determined. The chips are much larger and that is a substantial component of the higher cost. But firmware and software must be written to do whatever the unit will eventually do.
What will it do? Darbee is seeking input as to what the market would like it to do. For example, do a higher more sophisticated level of Darbee processing. Perform a bunch of video analysis functions viewable on the screen. A video multimeter if you will. Video EQ.. Nothing has been determined yet EXCEPT it will not be a multifunction video processor like a DVDO or Lumagen.No way will that happen. Darbeevision wishes to license its algs to video processor manufacturers, av processor manufacturers, AV receiver manufacturers, display manufacturers. something for them to employ in their higher end models to further differentiate those units from lower end models in their lines..
Ther are presently no plans to make a higher end Darblet with say some increased processing power and fiekl software upgradabilty other than the unit under discussion here. It was never envisioned that there would be software revisions for the Darblet. Glitches required replacement of units with fixed software. but the chips used in the darblet I don't think have the capability to add additional functions.
The $2000 unit has very large chips. Features could be added after its release. So field ugradability is required.But it a soft platform now and where it will go and what it will do is undertermined.
I know serious posts as to see what you would like the unit to do will be scrutinized by the Darbee follks. But I repeat, a full function video processor, not a chance. Things other companies don't offer, yes.
I think it clear that we here would like even better more sophisticated Darbeevision procession . Beyong that, what would you guys like? Tell Darbeevision by posting here. The product will happen and it will be priced at about $2K..

Without a doubt, better processing/more sophisticated algorithms. AFter spend nearly 3 months with the darblet the most salient capability emerging from this litle device is image depth. Most people comment on the clarity/sharpness aspect - and it does that pretty well also - but I have been most impressed with the depthness of the images I have been getting from my 2 darblet in series setup - darblet 1 at HD 60% and darblet 2 at Full Pop 15%. Football never looked so good. The Darbe boys are on the right track - just keep improving those algorithms. Remember to "first calibrate then darbee-ate!"

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post #35 of 69
9/12/12 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmassie View Post

Without a doubt, better processing/more sophisticated algorithms. AFter spend nearly 3 months with the darblet the most salient capability emerging from this litle device is image depth. Most people comment on the clarity/sharpness aspect - and it does that pretty well also - but I have been most impressed with the depthness of the images I have been getting from my 2 darblet in series setup - darblet 1 at HD 60% and darblet 2 at Full Pop 15%. Football never looked so good. The Darbe boys are on the right track - just keep improving those algorithms. Remember to "first calibrate then darbee-ate!"

 

You have two Darblets connected in series on the same signal path, i.e. double-processing?

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post #36 of 69
9/12/12 at 9:47am
$2000 is getting close to a Teranex. The best processor you can buy.
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post #37 of 69
9/12/12 at 9:52am

Yes and I am surprised more people with 2 darblets have not experimented with this. Its ok  it won't blow up and you can go back to the one darblet per display mode if it does not suit you. In this setup,  a proper calibration of your display is even more important and you have to fiddle with the settings on the different darblets to find the right combination for your particular display  - but my 60 HD-15 Pop combination works for virtually all my content and I don't see any ill effects. YMMV but it works for me!

 

 Remember to "first calibrate then darbee-ate!"

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post #38 of 69
9/12/12 at 10:18am
I think it would be great if it could upscale to 4K and also be able to add the Darblet features. Maybe have 4K pass through. Now were talking. smile.gif
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post #39 of 69
9/12/12 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post

So we have a high end piece of hardware in search of a function? This seems backwards to me, but what do I know.
With a fair amount of stereoscopic 3D content now available, how about a function to take 3D video and Darbee it down into a single 2D image with the depth information embedded as faithfully as possible? This was the original version of the technology wasn't it? Options to add more Darbee in addition to what depth is there in the left/right disparity might also be nice, as many 3D movies have weak depth. This would allow people who dislike stereoscopic 3D for whatever reason to nonetheless get some benefit from it.


^^^ This...... Should produce considerably higher impact and depth without glasses compared to what the Darblet has to do with synthesizing left and right "disparity" .... in real time.......... eek.gifeek.gif
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post #40 of 69
9/12/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmassie View Post

Yes and I am surprised more people with 2 darblets have not experimented with this. Its ok  it won't blow up and you can go back to the one darblet per display mode if it does not suit you. In this setup,  a proper calibration of your display is even more important and you have to fiddle with the settings on the different darblets to find the right combination for your particular display  - but my 60 HD-15 Pop combination works for virtually all my content and I don't see any ill effects. YMMV but it works for me!

 Remember to "first calibrate then darbee-ate!"

I'm still not sure I understand what two Darblets in series accomplishes that one Darblet couldn't accomplish, perhaps at a higher setting.
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post #41 of 69
9/12/12 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I'm still not sure I understand what two Darblets in series accomplishes that one Darblet couldn't accomplish, perhaps at a higher setting.

An interaction effect with them daisy chained? That begs the question of what sequences goes first....

I've been lurking here while I've been waiting for my Darblet from AVS Sales. Should be interesting to see what it does with our Panny plasma (42", so I'm expecting marginal improvement, but we're moving up to a larget set later this year after Black Friday and I wanteed to take the plunge before the price increase).
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post #42 of 69
9/12/12 at 4:26pm
"Bigger is Better" always remember....no matter what your significant other thinks.... if they disagree they aren't thinking clearly and that's when you do what you as an "elite thinker" knows needs to be done......... biggrin.gif
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post #43 of 69
9/12/12 at 5:30pm
Delete the word clearly and you have my plus one.
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post #44 of 69
9/12/12 at 6:31pm
I think high quality noise reduction should be included to counter the perceived noise being added to the image by running Darblet at higher settings.

Still wouldn't pay $2,000 for it, but if they could add the artifact-free Darblet processing to noise reduction along the lines of the Mosquito, allowing settings of HD 100% or higher for the Darblet, it would get my attention in the $700 to $800 price range, along with making it field upgradeable and with HDMI switching.

Dream on. . .
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post #45 of 69
9/13/12 at 6:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post


So we have a high end piece of hardware in search of a function? This seems backwards to me, but what do I know.
With a fair amount of stereoscopic 3D content now available, how about a function to take 3D video and Darbee it down into a single 2D image with the depth information embedded as faithfully as possible? This was the original version of the technology wasn't it? Options to add more Darbee in addition to what depth is there in the left/right disparity might also be nice, as many 3D movies have weak depth. This would allow people who dislike stereoscopic 3D for whatever reason to nonetheless get some benefit from it.

 

I love 3D, but wearing glasses over my glasses or even using contacts and having to wear those glasses just totally ruins the immersion experience, which 3D is supposed to bring to the experience!   Until glasses free 3D becomes available I certainly would consider, even at $2K, if 3D could be rendered into 2D with depth.  Current 2D to 3D , from my limited viewing of it lacks depth, if the new Darbee could improve that 3D depth behind the screen with processing alone and no glasses I most likely would pony up the 2K.

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post #46 of 69
9/13/12 at 7:43am
I think there's a lot of folks like you, jlanzy, who like the idea of 3D but have problems with its implementation. Personally I'm not one of them. I wear contacts during the day, take them out when I get home, wear my active shutter glasses over my glasses, and just get immersed in the 3D with never a thought or complaint about either of the glasses. I use my Darblet for 3D content as well, although I don't know how embedding interpolated stereoscopic 3D depth into each eye's image makes any sense other than the fact that it looks better regardless!

So I love 3D, and there's no way a 2D image could give you what you get with stereoscopic 3D (left right disparity, the stereo construct produced in our brains, all the instinctual neural pathways it lights up, etc), not with Darbee, not with 4k. But if you or I are stuck with 2D for whatever reason, I would definitely like to maximize monoscopic 3D depth cues, especially if it can be drawn from actual disparate left and right images, rather than based on sophisticated guesswork as we get with the Darbee technology currently available to us.
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post #47 of 69
9/14/12 at 4:10pm
Shouldn't the introduction of 4k and OLED make the picture clearer/sharper? Seems like a bit of a waste to me, too little too late?
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post #48 of 69
9/14/12 at 8:26pm
Well I do my Darblet processing in 1080p and my Sony VPL-vw1000ES shoots it out upscaled to 4HD or 4K if I want it to do so. There is a noticeable improvement with the Darblet in the chain. Nothing freally drastic, but better. A bit clearer and a bit sharper. Besides, it will be along time before 4K prices drop to mass affordability and the Darblet is an inexpensive way of noticeably improving clarity and detail on 720P and 1080p displays.
Edited by AV Science Sales 4 - 9/15/12 at 4:38am
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post #49 of 69
9/14/12 at 8:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djPerfectTrip View Post

Shouldn't the introduction of 4k and OLED make the picture clearer/sharper? Seems like a bit of a waste to me, too little too late?

If you read my review, I tested the unit using a JVC eShift projector and Sony 1000ES 4K projectors and the result is nothing to scoff at. In fact it's amazing.

My take on anything is try it first, then make an informed comment.

PS: how can OLED make the picture sharper?
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post #50 of 69
9/15/12 at 4:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJayB View Post

I think high quality noise reduction should be included to counter the perceived noise being added to the image by running Darblet at higher settings.
Still wouldn't pay $2,000 for it, but if they could add the artifact-free Darblet processing to noise reduction along the lines of the Mosquito, allowing settings of HD 100% or higher for the Darblet, it would get my attention in the $700 to $800 price range, along with making it field upgradeable and with HDMI switching.
Dream on. . .

Obviously, a more sophisticated version of the process would reduce artifacting due to such things a noise. Perhaps certain factors or whatever in the algs could be adjustable in the menue just as the modes and degree of processing (0 to 120) are now. I doubt Darbeevision would want to put classic 2D, 3D, block, mosquitp noise reduction in because those functions are performed in boradband processosr and in many displays.
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post #51 of 69
9/16/12 at 1:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gleave View Post

$2000 is getting close to a Teranex. The best processor you can buy.

Not going to happen but since darbee is differentiated from normal dvdo/lumagen type vp and is about 3d effects ; an oem version of the terranex 2d/3d converter function with darby enhancements would open the paypal a/c smile.gif

Just have to lose the hdcp restrictions . Airions 2d suggestion is welcome especially if it can compensate for off axis viewing as active/passive displays diverge ..
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post #52 of 69
9/16/12 at 7:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

I doubt Darbeevision would want to put classic 2D, 3D, block, mosquitp noise reduction in because those functions are performed in boradband processosr and in many displays.

It seemed like a good idea to me as it's a good fit for what the Darbee does and what kind of signal it wants to receive. But, I'll have to trust your doubts. I'm more and more discouraged about this product. It seems like the only inspiration behind it, the only thing that's well established, is to sell a product for $2000. There doesn't seem to be many ideas (in other words, not much demand) for what it could do to justify the price. Obviously, a more sophisticated version of the Darbee algorithm would be nice. But, it's hard to believe that such a thing requires $2000 worth of processing to achieve, and the fact that Darbee wants the product to do a whole lot more corroborates such suspicions. My suggestion to implement the original Darbee technology to downscale stereoscopic 3D images to 2D with accurate enhanced depth would be nice to see, but I doubt it would need anywhere near $2000 in hardware to do it, nor do I think very many would find the improvement worth the cost.

In fairness, maybe there's few enough high end buyers out there that Darbee can make a profit off of the Fidelio no matter what it becomes (but as you say, most companies that offered such products are out of business). If Darbeevision can do so, more power to them, as I think they deserve success. Or perhaps there's value enough in the appearance of having a presence in the high end market. If so, more power to them. But on the merits of this product in isolation, I'm still puzzled by it's existence and disappointed about the lack of concrete ideas.
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post #53 of 69
9/16/12 at 8:53am
Good grief, it was a concept piece shown at CEDIA. They were soliciting comments and trying to judge market place acceptance before spending huge amounts of money to bring it to market. It obviously has to do more than the $349 unit in a pretty box but one cannot judge it's worth unless and until it is released and its features and capabilities are known.
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post #54 of 69
9/16/12 at 9:06am
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Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Good grief

I know, really! tongue.gif
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They were soliciting comments and trying to judge market place acceptance

My posts here are just a drop in that pond.
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one cannot judge it's worth unless and until it is released and its features and capabilities are known.

I agree, I don't mean to review the product. I'm just complaining that the product doesn't exist and that it's capabilities are unknown, even to its creators apparently! And, that Darbeevision has already judged it's worth at $2000 before they know what features and capabilities it will have. confused.gif

Seriously though, I wish Darbeevision all the best, and I only mean to give honest and hopefully constructive feedback.
Edited by Airion - 9/16/12 at 9:13am
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post #55 of 69
9/16/12 at 9:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Good grief, it was a concept piece shown at CEDIA. They were soliciting comments and trying to judge market place acceptance before spending huge amounts of money to bring it to market. It obviously has to do more than the $349 unit in a pretty box but one cannot judge it's worth unless and until it is released and its features and capabilities are known.

Exactly.
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post #56 of 69
9/16/12 at 9:49am
I know all comments made here are very much appreciated by darbeevision. Without going into a detailed explanation, which I will leave for Dr. Darbee, thre is considerable merit into running two Darbee's in series. Depending on how each is set up, one can use a much higher level of Darbee processing without the artifscting that is associated with running one Darblet at a high level. Let's call that noise reduction. Obviously this series processing could be performed by the engine in the Fidelio. Many possible functions the unit could be programmed to do such as video equalization, would require a visual display. Inovatation is complex and often complex process especially without going public or selling off a portion of an entity to raise necessary large captitalization. The unit already has been designed to include multiple HDMI inputs with swiching, multiple outlets if I remember correctly, RS232 input etc etc. It is no crime for a company needing a horse and a cart, to get one of them first. In this case developing software to perform as yet undefined functions. The trick for a successfil product is for it to have the functions its market wants. Then you have to figure out how to do them and write the software and firmware neededAll of this is expensive. I applaud Darbeevision for doing this. It made a mistake in not designing the Darblet to include user installed updates. That is retified in the design of the Fidelio. If it did better field research of what users wanted, it would have been designed in. But it wasn't envisioned that field updates would be needed. I, for one, like its plan for developement of this new produc. Rest assured Darbeevision is developing other products at cheaper price points so that it can address the huge gaming msarket which would never spend the price of a Darblet because of its socio economic structure. Applying the Darbevision to the gaming output of an Xbox or playstation results in I would say a magnitudeorder of improvement in the realism of a game.I hope this helps explain what I, anonmember of the Darbee team, but one with considerable inside info, think. Hope this helps explain what and why a bit.
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post #57 of 69
9/16/12 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 4 View Post

I Without going into a detailed explanation, which I will leave for Dr. Darbee, thre is considerable merit into running two Darbee's in series. Depending on how each is set up, one can use a much higher level of Darbee processing without the artifscting that is associated with running one Darblet at a high level.

I would be very interested in hearing DD's explanation of the benefits of hooking up two Darblets in series, and tips on how to configure them and what to look for in improvements.

I have a second Darblet on order for my bedroom flat panel, but would certainly take the opportunity to try two in series if I knew why, how, and what to look for.
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post #58 of 69
9/16/12 at 11:17am
RE: Two Dablets in series

Mimioguy and I have had tremendous results tweaking the edge enhancement adjustment on our Nvidia-based HTPCs and then further enhancing that with the Darblet. It achieves results that significantly enhance the output of one of those processing passes individually. I can imagine the two Darblets, or a high-end Darblet box that adds other pre-DarbeeVision processing could also represent a big quality increase over a single Darblet.
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post #59 of 69
9/16/12 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


I would be very interested in hearing DD's explanation of the benefits of hooking up two Darblets in series, and tips on how to configure them and what to look for in improvements.
I have a second Darblet on order for my bedroom flat panel, but would certainly take the opportunity to try two in series if I knew why, how, and what to look for.

I have been running 2 darblets in series feeding 1 display for a month now -and the results have been very good - won't say much more than that (since this if probably the 5th time I have mentioned this) but I think you will be surprised at how much more depth you get if you can find the right combo of settings. My darbet 1 is at 60% HD and my darblet 2 is at 15% Full Pop. Good for just about everything - even SD.

 

"Calibrate then darbee-ate^2"

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post #60 of 69
9/16/12 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmassie View Post

I have been running 2 darblets in series feeding 1 display for a month now -and the results have been very good - won't say much more than that (since this if probably the 5th time I have mentioned this) but I think you will be surprised at how much more depth you get if you can find the right combo of settings. My darbet 1 is at 60% HD and my darblet 2 is at 15% Full Pop. Good for just about everything - even SD.

"Calibrate then darbee-ate^2"

Yes, I am familiar that you are running this configuration. I am hoping for an "official" opinion from Dr Darbee explaining in technical terms what is going on with an in-series configuration, and how to achieve the proper settings.
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