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Why does my XBR960 have input lag on 1080i? - Page 2

post #31 of 45
Quote:
I started by looking up the input lag problem. Through the power of AVSF, I learned that the HDMI's digital processing can be converted to an analog signal by changing the service menu option 'HDPT' from 1 to 0, eliminating input lag caused by digital processing.
I don't think this is quite correct. The electronics in the Sony CRT doesn't directly interface with HDMI; it has an HDMI card that converts to analogue then the analogue is converted back to digital again. So the quality by plugging directly into the component will usually be better unless there are HDCP issues. The HDPT turns off processing that is done regadless of input type - HDMI, S-video or even RF. By messing with the service menu I'm guessing some kind of processing was turned on that introduced lag aside from HDPT. Try downloading the service manual and have a look at the factory defaults of the values that deal with processing. It is always a good idea to write down the TV's original settings before changing anything.
post #32 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerging View Post

I don't think this is quite correct. The electronics in the Sony CRT doesn't directly interface with HDMI; it has an HDMI card that converts to analogue then the analogue is converted back to digital again. So the quality by plugging directly into the component will usually be better unless there are HDCP issues. The HDPT turns off processing that is done regadless of input type - HDMI, S-video or even RF. By messing with the service menu I'm guessing some kind of processing was turned on that introduced lag aside from HDPT. Try downloading the service manual and have a look at the factory defaults of the values that deal with processing. It is always a good idea to write down the TV's original settings before changing anything.

Yup, thats exactly what I was thinking. I was probably being too general saying it turned of ALL extra processing, because clearly it hasn't. But at the time I first changed the setting it SEEMED to disable all extra processing, which is why I wrote it that way.

"It is always a good idea to write down the TV's original settings before changing anything."

I wish I had known that when I first got the TV. For some reason, I had the mindset that nothing I changed in the service menu would do anything bad, that it was just an expanded user menu. I now understand that the service menu is dangerous and should only be used with extreme caution and never adjusted without documenting the original settings.
post #33 of 45
See this post
http://www.avsforum.com/t/408146/the-official-kd-34xbr960-thread/7600#post_22442326

I think there were some PDFs on the Sony service codes thread that explained what the difference image processing options did. It'll probably be something that's disabled by default that you've turned on so compare your TV's values against the service manual's.

Messing with fine tuning the image processing options is a good way to go mad. They often individually do so little as to be almost indiscernible but overall they work together to make a big difference to the picture, for better or for worse. There is no perfect setting with optimal settings for some content being quite bad for others.
post #34 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerging View Post

See this post
http://www.avsforum.com/t/408146/the-official-kd-34xbr960-thread/7600#post_22442326
I think there were some PDFs on the Sony service codes thread that explained what the difference image processing options did. It'll probably be something that's disabled by default that you've turned on so compare your TV's values against the service manual's.
Messing with fine tuning the image processing options is a good way to go mad. They often individually do so little as to be almost indiscernible but overall they work together to make a big difference to the picture, for better or for worse. There is no perfect setting with optimal settings for some content being quite bad for others.

Don't I know it! Trying to figure this out has been driving me NUTS! I've found myself refusing to play my Xbox at times because I'm just so frustrated. One good thing I can say is: lesson learned. I'll never walk blindly into a service menu again.

Thanks for your reply btw. I'll take a look at the post you linked to and the service manual when I get a minute.
post #35 of 45
Thread Starter 
Ok, so I took a look at the service manual. Just confirm a couple things for me. Are the values listed under the blue cell with the * in it the default values. As in, the values that those options are set to in the factory? If so, it shouldn't be too hard for me to pinpoint the value I changed to add processing, right? I just change all the values to match the values in the service nanual? (I will document the changes I make, of course.) One more question: is there anything in the service manual that describes what each item in the service menu does/changes?
post #36 of 45
I don't know what the colour coding means.

The 2170P-3 section seems to be relevant one relating to image processing. It looks like the image processing settings are stored separately for Vivid / Standard / Pro / Movie mode so try changing between them to see if the lag stops.

Do read the Sony services codes threads as there's discussion about image processing parameters in there. Here are some links to PDFs with some explanations

http://www.avsforum.com/t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries#post_5498706
http://www.avsforum.com/t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries/700#post_6916789
http://www.avsforum.com/t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries#post_5637661
http://www.avsforum.com/t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries/2850#post_18480564

Not every default in the service manual is going to work well for your TV as people who have bricked their TV by doing a "Factory reset" learned the hard way. I'd restrict myself to the 2170P-3 section righ now if it was me until this is fixed. You can really mess up your TV in there so you need to know what you're doing before making changes.
Edited by homerging - 10/25/12 at 10:36pm
post #37 of 45
Dude, in all honesty, I think you're 1080p LCD is the laggy display, and you got so used to it that you think the instant response you're getting on your CRT is lag. Seriously, if you get used to a certain timing, whether it is shooting, driving, or rhythm games, any change will throw you off.
post #38 of 45
Thread Starter 
No trust me thats not it. I also have an SD CRT and I can easily tell there is lag on the 960 compared to the SD CRT, which is of course lagless.

Ty again Homerging, I will take a look at those.
post #39 of 45
Thread Starter 
I set every option in 217OP-3 to 0 yet the lag is still there. What other categories have options that add processing? Any categories specific to component cable signal processing, perhaps? The lag may have improved a little but it's still not lag-free like it used to be...
Edited by jameslieb1 - 10/26/12 at 3:56pm
post #40 of 45
Try setting the MIDE value in 217OP-3 to 60. Consult Image_Processing_rev1_1.pdf to understand why.

Did you change the HVBT setting in 2170P-2 from its default? It looks separate from HDPT. I have no idea what it does so I'd be wary of it..

Are you sure you actually have HDPT set to 0? The service menu implies it is set independently for Vivd / Standard / Movie / Pro.

Failing that, try different resolutions and inputs on the XBox and see if that makes any difference to the lag.
post #41 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by homerging View Post

Try setting the MIDE value in 217OP-3 to 60. Consult Image_Processing_rev1_1.pdf to understand why.
Did you change the HVBT setting in 2170P-2 from its default? It looks separate from HDPT. I have no idea what it does so I'd be wary of it..
Are you sure you actually have HDPT set to 0? The service menu implies it is set independently for Vivd / Standard / Movie / Pro.
Failing that, try different resolutions and inputs on the XBox and see if that makes any difference to the lag.

Could you explain this to me in further detail or direct me to an article about it.
post #42 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameslieb1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by homerging View Post

Try setting the MIDE value in 217OP-3 to 60. Consult Image_Processing_rev1_1.pdf to understand why.
Did you change the HVBT setting in 2170P-2 from its default? It looks separate from HDPT. I have no idea what it does so I'd be wary of it..
Are you sure you actually have HDPT set to 0? The service menu implies it is set independently for Vivd / Standard / Movie / Pro.
Failing that, try different resolutions and inputs on the XBox and see if that makes any difference to the lag.

Could you explain this to me in further detail or direct me to an article about it.
Ok, go to page 83 of your service manual. You'll see a row after HDPT with the value "1" being the default for Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro and Expansion Zoom. What this means, assuming there isn't a mistake in the service manual, is that when you change the HDPT value from 1 to 0, the 1 vs 0 value is set independently for each of the Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro and Expansion Zoom modes. Therefore if you were in say Movie when you changed from 1 to 0, then you changed from Movie to Standard, then HDPT would be back to the 1 value i.e. processing turned on again.
post #43 of 45
It's interesting to read about changing the HDPT value. I'm a gamer so I think I'll be doing this but would also like to know if it's preferred for films as well? Does disabling HDPT enhance movies or is it not recommended? I'm sorry if this is off-subject but I will also definitely be doing this to reduce lag for Xbox 360.
post #44 of 45
Thread Starter 
I checked and HDPT is definitely set to 0 for the picture setting I use (Standard). The other settings you mentioned didn't seem to make a difference. I'm starting to lose hope. This isn't even the only problem I'm having with this TV. Along with the input lag, there is a layer of noise/static/snow over the picture, as well as a ~2" wide vertical red push/bleed along to left edge of the screen. CRTs are very frustrating...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PathofNeo View Post

It's interesting to read about changing the HDPT value. I'm a gamer so I think I'll be doing this but would also like to know if it's preferred for films as well? Does disabling HDPT enhance movies or is it not recommended? I'm sorry if this is off-subject but I will also definitely be doing this to reduce lag for Xbox 360.

Tbh the HDPT doesn't seem to affect overall picture quality. It does create an overscan (the picture becomes more "zoomed in" than it should be) but this can be fixed by adjusting VPOS, VSIZ, HPOS, and HSIZ in the service menu. It also makes on-screen graphics such as the user menu and the volume control flicker and jitter, but it's an extremely minor inconvenience.
Edited by jameslieb1 - 11/9/12 at 7:34am
post #45 of 45
Adjusting convergence should get rid of the red fringing if that's the problem (like a red outline?).
I'm not sure what's available on the xbr's for convergence though.
It sounds like you got a tv that was in pretty rough shape, crt's can be really nice but require a lot of tweaking (and of course the menus for tweaking are complete jibber ish for us humble non technicians).
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