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ep4000 used for biamp highs

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
Ive used the ep4000 a ton for custom sub enclosures but has anyone every used it on highs or in a biamp situation? distortion ratings didnt look to bad on them. I did some diggin in the search engine but couldnt find anyone who as tried it....anyone try this?
-D
post #2 of 21
I have. It was ok, it did better than most AVR's, but it's not on par with a Hi-Fi quality amp like entry-level bryston/classe/mcintosh etc, and for the price I wouldn't expect it to be either, can't really complain there.
post #3 of 21
I had one (the 2500 which is the same) bridged to my current center channel and it was alright. I didn't really push it too hard though but it sounded more effortless at the time.
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
thats kind of what im thinking as well....it is what it is to a point but you can get a lot of power for not a ton of cash...just thought having the extra power would come in handy and give you some extra dynamics...speaker depending of course. like you said its not a high end home amp but doesnt have that price either. ive just been pretty happy with the ep4000 on custom sub applications and was just curious how many have tried this on highs. what speakers did you try it on?
post #5 of 21
Most highs are going to be run with a few to maybe dozens of watts in the vast, vast majority of cases. The ep4000 will have vanishingly low distortion at these levels. The only factors of concern are self noise (snr) and fan noise, two things most noticeable at low listening levels. You shouldn't worry about turning the volume knob up... it will be indistinguishable from any other competent amp in that case.
post #6 of 21
"High-end home amp" lol, the first day I got a Crown, about 7 years ago was also the last day I listened to 'high-end home amps'. In the '90s I thought... no, I was certain I'd own a Krell amp and be a Krell fan for life. Well, instead I modded a Crown XTi-1000 to run without a fan after buying one on a whim- no issues 7 years later - so long as it's not doing subwoofer duty. There is no doubt in my mind that the very concept of a 'home amplifier' is now a quaint, anachronistic one. Those big, hot chunks of steel are no different than a super-expensive watch (Rolex)... in reality they can't even do as much as a Timex. All they can do is weigh a lot and cost a lot. The last time I listened to a Macintosh amp I was left wondering what I could do with all the money I was not spending on it.

Yesterday I bought the iNuke 6000 to run my subs and I'd say that at this point it is totally over, kaput, finito for 'high-end home amps'. $450 for more clean power than I know what to do with. Much more power than my old pair of Sony ES amps running in mono: http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-N77ES.html http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php?topic=10652.0

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbals View Post

thats kind of what im thinking as well....it is what it is to a point but you can get a lot of power for not a ton of cash...just thought having the extra power would come in handy and give you some extra dynamics...speaker depending of course. like you said its not a high end home amp but doesnt have that price either. ive just been pretty happy with the ep4000 on custom sub applications and was just curious how many have tried this on highs. what speakers did you try it on?
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

"High-end home amp" lol, the first day I got a Crown, about 7 years ago was also the last day I listened to 'high-end home amps'.
+1. As a matter of history when separate power amps first appeared they were all 'high end home audio' or cinema, with precious, if any difference between the those two designations. They were drafted into pro-sound use in the late '60s because that's all that there was. Eventually the same companies that made home/cinema power amps, like Crown and Crest, started making pro-sound amps, the main difference between them and the older models being the use of balanced XLR inputs and +4dB input level capability. Most of those companies eventually went to all 'pro' amps, as the demand for moderately priced hi-fi separates went away, while pro/cinema became a single genre.
In terms of performance labels don't matter, if it does the job it does the job, no matter what the target market is. That doesn't mean a $200 pro amp will work as well as a $20k high end home audio amp, but a $1k pro amp most assuredly will.
post #8 of 21
In my experience, nothing adds to the impression of higher-fidelity than having abundant... and I mean exceedingly abundant headroom. Out of nostalgia I took a peek at Krell's latest. I'll peg the generic value ratio of pro vs. boutique at 5:1 but sure 20:1 and higher is possible if you chose the best value pro amps vs. the most expensive boutique amps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

+1. As a matter of history when separate power amps first appeared they were all 'high end home audio' or cinema, with precious, if any difference between the those two designations. They were drafted into pro-sound use in the late '60s because that's all that there was. Eventually the same companies that made home/cinema power amps, like Crown and Crest, started making pro-sound amps, the main difference between them and the older models being the use of balanced XLR inputs and +4dB input level capability. Most of those companies eventually went to all 'pro' amps, as the demand for moderately priced hi-fi separates went away, while pro/cinema became a single genre.
In terms of performance labels don't matter, if it does the job it does the job, no matter what the target market is. That doesn't mean a $200 pro amp will work as well as a $20k high end home audio amp, but a $1k pro amp most assuredly will.
post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
thanks for the input guys...im already planning out a multitude of mini dsp units and most likely ep4000's. again...i think for the money and taking the time to set up the dsps with care you could get some pretty amazing value.
thxs
post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbals View Post

What speakers did you try it on?

Well my treble-quality "reference setup" is a pair of B&W Nautilus 803's powered by B&O 1000 mono amps (as can be heard in all my videos in all my thread posts).

The best I have ever heard for uber-reference-class was in a dealer audition with B&W 802D's and Classe Delta equipment.
Just how good are the Delta's SNR? eek.gif FTW BATMAN!!!



I tried all my speakers with all my amps. So that means: I tried it on PV215's, Athena F1's and B&W Nautilus 803 against XTI-4k's, iTech8k's, EP4k's and my B&O1k's.
Both full-range and on treble.

The winner's were in this order:
#1) B&W 802D's and Classe Delta 600's
#2) B&W Nautilus 803's powered and B&O 1000's

There is no 3rd place, everything else was sub-par, at least 10% worse, including a bunch of Yamaha AVR's that I upgraded away from. But the next closest amp was the iTech 8k as far as treble quality goes if your wondering.

I'm not talking power, they all had crap tonnes of power; more than you could ever use on just highs; clearly it's not a power thing.

I'd love to spend only $400 instead of $4000+ and instead buy an array of LMS Ultra subs (trust me I would have done exactly that), but the difference was too much of a downgrade for me.
I want it to sound like "I'm there quality", the pro amps didn't give that at all.

It will work, of course it will, but that doesn't mean it will sound it's absolute best. Is it worth it? No. Is it better? Yes.




The Hi-Fi conundrum is this: You don't really notice it or miss it until you try it, and then you don't know what you have until its gone; and you'll never want to backstep. You are stuck ever moving higher.



But be careful, there are two dangerous camps out there...
One that I swear thinks that a "Bose bass module powered by an HTIB package" is better than an "array of LMS's with top shelf amps and top shelf mains" or some such, but that doesn't make it true, no matter how hard they pretend it to be so.
The second camp out there is almost the complete mirror opposite, they think that because the sticker is X times more costly that it is somehow X times better, which is also just as flawed thinking.
Just because "better gear tends to be more expensive", does not mean that "all gear that is more expensive is automatically better, or even a bit better" :S
You can't really change people's core, so to each their own I guess...

- my 2 cents
post #11 of 21
In my opinion, the ep4000 has plenty of power, but is lacking to a degree in SQ. I'm not saying it's terrible, but when doing A/B comparison with the Behringer and a Peavey CS 4080hz and a Peavey IPR 3000, there was quite a noticeable difference in both subwoofer and LCR use. The CS and IPR sounded very similar though.

It was enough of a difference where I'm confident I could distinguish the Behringer from the Peaveys in a blind test.
post #12 of 21
Would it be better than powering your mains from just the receiver though?
post #13 of 21
Call me an optimist but I think the answer is yes. Today I picked up a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio interface, partly because I liked the output spec of 104db dynamic range (measured at output) and because I needed something with balanced output to feed my pro amp. I gotta say that up until now I did not think the USB interfaces could beat my AVR (a humble Sony STR-DH830). I've owned a very nice Motu, as well as Alesis and Presonus gear... The Scarlett has the sound I was looking for, dynamic and smooth and 3-dimensional with incredibly tight, well-defined bass. It's the best budget interface I've heard, and it makes my old Crown XTi sound like a new machine, an amazing good-sounding one. So that's basically it, get a decent interface with balanced outs and your receiver will become secondary. I'm feeding my receiver's headphone-out to the Scarlett's input and then use direct monitoring so I can listen to Blu-Ray and Cable, which sounds perfect but not as perfect as the audio coming directly from the Scarlett. I honestly feel that less than 10 years ago it cost more than 10X as much to get this kind of sound quality out of a computer. Also moving up to the $200-300 range would give you more inputs (including optical) and outputs. Of course this works for me because I'm running a pure 2-channel system, including stereo subs. But, the point is to keep costs down while having a genuine audiophile experience that transcends what an AVR can do and this is a great route to achieve it.

Of course there is better out there but for $150 - or less on sale - the Scarlett also sounds lush and deep and really first-class.

D-A dynamic range Range: 104dB ‘A-weighted’ (all outputs)
Converter chipset D-A dynamic range 114 dB
Supported sample rates 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz and 96 kHz \
Line Outputs 1 & 2 Maximum output level (0 dBFS) 10 dBu, balanced THD+N 0.001% (measured with 0 dBFS input and 22 Hz - 22 kHz filter, unweighted)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan87 View Post

Would it be better than powering your mains from just the receiver though?
post #14 of 21
In my opinion the Samson studio type amps like the Samson Servo 600( sounds really nice) or the cheaper fanless Behringer A500 is much better on highs on a home audio/home cinema situation.
post #15 of 21
Quietly, whilst no one was watching, AVS became Audio Assylum.
post #16 of 21
^^^

sadly, +1...
post #17 of 21
As 'pro' technology marches forward unabated, heavy exquisitely housed home/audiophile gear will look more and more like a Rolex, or a film-based Hassleblad - In comparison Pro gear is an Android-powered smartphone (which happens to feature a clock). The conversation will inevitably shift and price/size/weight/exclusivity will no longer be a guarantor of quality. I was online when all this happened in Photography - eventually the medium-format film supporters all disappeared. Today an iPhone can take photo which can create a legitimate 8"x10" print. Low prices and digital quality won out, and today the cost and (lack of) 'quality' of film makes it a pure anachronism. So it is with digital amps and outboard USB music interfaces vs. dedicated players & DACs and heavy class-A, A/B, B amps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Quietly, whilst no one was watching, AVS became Audio Assylum.

Edited by imagic - 9/17/12 at 8:14am
post #18 of 21
If I were to add a pro-amp to my existing home theater receiver, (Denon AVR-3312), a Behringer iNuke 1000 to be precise, would I have to use some type of signal amplifier between the iNuke and my Denon? Or could I just hook the iNuke up to my Denon with a XLR to RCA cable?

Here is the deal, I want to add 3 Behringer iNuke 1000's (not the Dsp versions) to power my LCR and sub. Someone mentioned that I might need an F-Mod for the subwoofer amp? Can anyone explain to me what an F-Mod is and how would I need to use it to connect to my amp that powers my sub?
post #19 of 21
You missed my point entirely. I was having a dig at those who ascribe specific sonic differences to amplifiers in non level matched blind tests,ith the amps working witin parameters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The conversation will inevitably shift and price/size/weight/exclusivity will no longer be a guarantor of quality.
I snipped this sentence out simply because it was hardly ever the case with audio electronics anyway.

I'm also fascinated by some people's care about the (light) weight of audio amps used at home. Really, does it make any difference? Once it's positioned it's irrelevant as it will most likely be moved rarely/never.Ditto with the purported efficiency differences of switching amp designs; how much of a difference will it actually make to your power bill?
post #20 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

If I were to add a pro-amp to my existing home theater receiver, (Denon AVR-3312), a Behringer iNuke 1000 to be precise, would I have to use some type of signal amplifier between the iNuke and my Denon? Or could I just hook the iNuke up to my Denon with a XLR to RCA cable?
Here is the deal, I want to add 3 Behringer iNuke 1000's (not the Dsp versions) to power my LCR and sub. Someone mentioned that I might need an F-Mod for the subwoofer amp? Can anyone explain to me what an F-Mod is and how would I need to use it to connect to my amp that powers my sub?


Bump
post #21 of 21
an fmod is a passive high-pass filter http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=13

I strongly recommend getting the DSP version of the iNuke for the sub. More power and flexibility including crossover and EQ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

If I were to add a pro-amp to my existing home theater receiver, (Denon AVR-3312), a Behringer iNuke 1000 to be precise, would I have to use some type of signal amplifier between the iNuke and my Denon? Or could I just hook the iNuke up to my Denon with a XLR to RCA cable?
Here is the deal, I want to add 3 Behringer iNuke 1000's (not the Dsp versions) to power my LCR and sub. Someone mentioned that I might need an F-Mod for the subwoofer amp? Can anyone explain to me what an F-Mod is and how would I need to use it to connect to my amp that powers my sub?
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