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unRaid or FlexRaid ? - Page 8

post #211 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

Why more and more I've seen many hardware raid hatres? Hardware raid is expensive, weak,... or else?
One more question. When I setup a RAID within Windows (raid5 or 6), Is that hard or soft raid?
I was told setting up RAID in BIOS (mobo raid) is a fakeraid, correct?

Personally, I don't think hardware RAID was ever that well suited to what most here want/need, and that's storing recoverable media. Hardware RAID has a number of cons, the big ones (IMO) being that the hardware is expensive and they require a matched (size at least, ideally model) set of drives. That said for a long time, if you had a lot of media (many drives worth) and you wanted that stored in a single volume, and you wanted some redundancy to protect your work/time (spent ripping/organizing) then they were really the best option. For RAID 5/6 IMO hardware is the best, most robust option (I know people like Linux SW RAID, and some like Windows but I wouldn't trust Windows to my RAID volume). Essentially we were stuck using enterprise/server/data center solutions, which were designed for different use cases because that was all there was.

The big thing that's changed is there are now a number of new products that are more well suited to storing media, in fact specifically designed for storing media. Things like unRAID, FlexRAID, Snap RAID. They combine the things media server owners have wanted from RAID-5 systems (parity redundancy and contiguous volumes), but allow the use of diversely sized drives , individual drive spin-up, etc. And they're a lot cheaper because they don't require bespoke hardware.
post #212 of 322
Hardware raid can be a fickle one. If a drive fails and if another drive fails while recovering, you lose ALL DATA (due to striping).

With snapraid/flexraid (unraid?) your files are fully in tact , not striped. So if a drive fails and another fails, you can still recover those files that are on the drives that didn't fail.

It also stinks that drives can't spin down in real RAID. For a real server that can't suffer downtime, it's great, but even for my 6 TB file + media server, it's not really a big deal if the drives are down!

I read an interesting document about performance of striped data sets.
They mentioned that RAID5/6 does add sequential read speed, but it does not help with random access as much, like multiple users, etc.
In the case of heavy use, a better setup was a raid 10, which is a mirrored and striped set. The mirror allows for 2x access, and the stripe 2x sequential read speed.
In my case, I just designed the drives to split uses. One for torrents, apps, tv shows. Other for game installers, movies, backups.
post #213 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

...One question. When I setup a RAID within Windows (disk management) for raid5 or 6, Is that hard or soft raid?
I was told setting up RAID in BIOS (mobo raid) is a fakeraid, correct?
Anyone's interested to answer my questions? Thanks a lot.
post #214 of 322
The RAID built into windows is Software. Hardware RAID requires special purpose hardware, that I've never seen built into motherboards. Motherboards (BIOS) generally do some sort of pseudo-software RAID in the drivers/firmware, but they don't have the hardware RAID engines.
post #215 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

Why more and more I've seen many hardware raid hatres? Hardware raid is expensive, weak,... or else?
One more question. When I setup a RAID within Windows (raid5 or 6), Is that hard or soft raid?
I was told setting up RAID in BIOS (mobo raid) is a fakeraid, correct?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

Anyone's interested to answer my questions? Thanks a lot.

Hardware RAID is where you use a RAID controller to set up a RAID array at the BIOS level (this happens before you even load an OS or independent of any software at all)

Software RAID is where you just hook up your HDD like normal to a sata port and install it so it's visible to your OS - then use a software to "raid" them, combine them, pool them, parity recovery etc....


So if you build a RAID array on the BIOS of RAID controller - THat is hardware RAID.

If you just pool your drives or setup some type of parity backup on the software level that is software raid.

There is no such thing as "fake raid". What you are probably referring to is that the serious enthusiasts consider the hardware RAID solutions built into cheap motherboards as inferior, limited, or lower quality. So they prefer a more serious RAID controller and RAID controller card than what comes integrated into a cheap consumer motherboard. This might be for reliability, performance, or capabilities. So they think setting up hardware RAID on your mobo (in BIOS before you boot into your OS) is "fake raid" compared to a more serious set up. But it's more a serious enthusiast bashing on the cheap solution, than it not being "raid" It's still hardware RAID.

RAID 0 is a popular easy to set up option on many motherboards that can get you combined storage space, and scaled speed increases with cheap consumer HDD's. I've long favored it and used it with motherboards as a great solution for a scratch disk. If you have say two 1TB drives, you can RAID 0 them into a single 2TB drive that is faster and higher performance than either on their own. Great option in a situation where you want value and performance- but not necessarily need super high reliability.

More complicated types of RAID look to increase the reliability aspect like running RAID 0 but with two more drives mirror so if anyone of them fails you have a second to fall back on. Then you get into more complicated parity RAIDS etc... I am not going to go into the differences between RAIDS but rather just leave you with the answer : IF YOU BUILD YOUR RAID ARRAY AT THE BIOS LEVEL BEFORE ANY SOFTWARE IT IS HARDWARE RAID. (RAID 0, 1, 5, 10, etc... etc ... )

If you do not build the array at the bios level and use software to set up your raid- then it is software raid.

Hope that helps

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

The RAID built into windows is Software. Hardware RAID requires special purpose hardware, that I've never seen built into motherboards. Motherboards (BIOS) generally do some sort of pseudo-software RAID in the drivers/firmware, but they don't have the hardware RAID engines.

This is not correct. Hardware raid has come integrated into motherboards for a very long time (years and years)

I had hardware RAID back on Windows 98, and even more recently on both my socket 939 Athlon and my LGA775 core2 Duo machines motherboards (Both Asus brands). I also have it on both my Socket 1155 and Socket 1150 motherboards today (Asus and Asrock)

Chipsets like Z77, Z68, or Z87 all usually have some support for a more consumer friendly basic RAID set up (limited in drives to however many SATA ports etc)

In the case of my Z68 Asus I could run 4 HDD's in RAID on the 4 SATA II ports ( or 2 on the two sata 3 ports). I have often used this cheap motherboard RAID to set up dual SSD's in RAID 0 for an OS (fast!) These RAIDs are set up before you even install your OS so it's certainly not software RAID and is hardware RAID.

Storage spaces built into windows 8 is software raid though... you set that up inside windows after you install the OS. (not in BIOS level)

The RAID options and amount of SATA ports that come integrated into a motherboard are often limited. If you wanted more drives in your raid set up, or you wanted a certain type of RAID or a certain configuration it's usually best or required to get a more robust RAID controller card that has 8+ ports and more options for RAID set up. But motherboards do have RAID (even affordable consumer motherboards)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elpee View Post

Why more and more I've seen many hardware raid hatres? Hardware raid is expensive, weak,... or else?

The reason why you see so many hardware raid haters is because many people have been burned by hardware RAID in the past. In comparison to software RAID, hardware raid is harder to set up and there is an increased risk of data loss unless you do it right and know what you are doing. For this reason, it's probably a better solution to choose software raid for a noob. A serious enterprise guy will likely disagree- but only because he works with enterprise RAID and servers for a living and can navigate the intricacies of set up better than a beginner.

To do hardware raid properly you need a proper hard ware raid controller ( with enough ports for HDD's of your array) You need to set it all up at once (build the array) You need to use all the same drives (throw away all those mix matches drives you already have of various sizes) and you can't add drives with data on them (you lose the data when build a new array)

It's just not friendly for a media server. You can't grow as you go, you can't add full drives or drives with data on them, you can't just remove drives and install them on other systems, if your hardware dies you are screwed. You have to buy a or at least have an appropriate raid controller to your application too, and quickly what comes with motherboards can become poor choice or unsatisfactory. Also- Hardware raid usually requires more expensive hard drives (that play nice with RAID with features like TLER (or whatever moniker Hitachi and Seagate call it) That is why you can't or should not just use any cheap consumer hard drive with hard ware raid unless you know it's compatible.

I think the increased cost, increased difficulty of set up, more limited future expand ability and flexibility, and the increase risk of data loss make hardware raid a poor solution for a basic affordable media server. You do not need the increased scaled performance of hardware raid in a consumer media set up because a good HDD can already saturate or go faster than gigabit LAN. So what benefit is there ? This is not enterprise.

On the data protection side of things, simply adding a dual parity software raid usually offers enough protection for 99% of the people (actually a single parity probably comes close) in a typical consumer media server set up. If you really needed "back up" of something ultra important like family pictures your probably best to just use software raid with parity and a second back up plan like offsite online back up (crash plan) or duplicity (external HDD's and second or third copies) for increased security.
post #216 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

There is no such thing as "fake raid". What you are probably referring to is that the serious enthusiasts consider the hardware RAID solutions built into cheap motherboards as inferior, limited, or lower quality.

The above is nonsense. Hardware raid handles the whole storage stack discretely. Fake raid, found on motherboards and certain add-on cards, relies on the northbridge/cpu/apu and is still just software raid inside a candy shell. Fake RAID is "fake" in the same way that a usb-to-vga adapter is a "fake" graphics card. The moniker is apt. A VGA2GO may work well for connecting a netbook to a conference room projector, but if you walked into an ATI vs NVIDIA gaming GPU debate claiming your little dongle is "basically the same thing but cheaper", people are going to look at you like you are an idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

The reason why you see so many hardware raid haters is because many people have been burned by hardware RAID in the past.

There are a few vocal people who have been burned by fake raid that they thought was hardware raid, and still remain unaware of the difference.
Edited by EricN - 9/9/13 at 11:54am
post #217 of 322
I am fully aware of the difference and I understand hardware raid- I am only answering his question. No need to get snappy at me- I did not intend for a hardware vs software raid battle. There was only truth in what I said.

Hardware raid is Hardware raid- there is different levels of quality sure- but it either is or it is not. "FAKE RAID" is a strange term and I don't want to confuse him with inferior raid or some subjective quality issue. It's either hardware -or- it's software- determined by if you set it up on a raid controller or bios level- or you rely on software to create your array. It's black and white as far as I am concerned (no judgement on which is better)

You are more advanced in technical understanding than a beginner and perhaps your more demanding in your expectations- so for you hardware raid might be a good choice. Fine. Go play with.

For most others looking for a simpler, more flexible, budget conscious decision there is more value in software raid (My opinion). For someone starting with something already (like existing system, or existing data drives) software raid is a better solution. For someone looking to do it right from the beginning all at once- and they know what they are doing and they have a decent budget you can get better performance with hardware RAID.

How much would a 35TB Hardware RAID server cost to build ? Much more than the budget most noobs begin with in this forum. Judge if you want, but the reality is what it is. I am not trying to say which is right or wrong- there is no such thing. Just that most around here are in the $500-$1500 budget range- or they are looking to grow as they go. For this- software raid is better and allows them to use what they already have and keep building forward.

If I had $2500+ up front to do it- I would seriously consider doing a Hardware raid server in 24 bay hot swap chassis over a software raid solution. To each their own.

My point was that these budget noobs looking to build cheap servers are the exact ones that get bitten by data loss with hardware RAID. This could because of cutting corners due to budget, or cheaper hardware/drives, or it could be lack of experience. But it's a reality. Some should do hardware raid and others should not. Generally for a cheap media server software raid is better (My opinion)
post #218 of 322
FakeRAID is a valid term. Here is a good read on the three RAID types: http://www.servethehome.com/difference-hardware-raid-hbas-software-raid/
post #219 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

:)How much would a 35TB Hardware RAID server cost to build ? Much more than the budget most noobs begin with in this forum. Judge if you want, but the reality is what it is.

35TB of raw BR rips at $20 each is $25,000 worth of media. With transcoding, that's $50,000+. Why are you so convinced that people aren't willing to divert one tenth of their media budget towards storage? The reality is that a 35TB array can hold years worth of HD content. Some of the drives will just die from old age before you ever get the chance to watch what's stored on them.

You aren't building a storage solution; you're just playing Jenga with hard drives. It's pointless.

A 2 or 4 bay Synology with a few extra backup disks sitting on a neighbor's shelf is a far, far more practical solution for a home media collection...and don't even think about using a parity-based solution with current consumer drives. They are too big, too slow, and too cheap. If you want to shave down the budget, then transcode a little more aggressively, don't rip the stuff you know you'll never watch, or just rely on the original discs as a backup.
post #220 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricN View Post

35TB of raw BR rips at $20 each is $25,000 worth of media. With transcoding, that's $50,000+.

That is a huge assumption. There are many grey areas here where you could exclude flat out piracy from the internet and just assume Netflix/Redbox/friend ripping.
post #221 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

That is a huge assumption. There are many grey areas here where you could exclude flat out piracy from the internet and just assume Netflix/Redbox/friend ripping.

Those are not grey areas.

But assuming $20/ea for 35TB of blu-rays is a large overestimate for many collections, I'm sure. With that many blu-rays, there is an excellent chance that many were purchased on sale, multiple disc discount, used, etc. It would not surprise me to see the average cost more like $5/ea for someone who bought a lot of used or bargain discs.
post #222 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

That is a huge assumption. There are many grey areas here where you could exclude flat out piracy from the internet and just assume Netflix/Redbox/friend ripping.

Rippig your own store bought bluray disc to mkv is also a violation of your user agreement and also illegal.

Great work Hollywood. wink.gif
post #223 of 322
The whole thing is a grey area. I don't think there are enough movies worth watching that would take up 35TB in the first place, no matter how they were obtained.
post #224 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

The whole thing is a grey area. I don't think there are enough movies worth watching that would take up 35TB in the first place, no matter how they were obtained.

There are thousands of movies available on blu-ray. Some people may not have as discerning taste as you do.

If you include blu-rays of TV series in addition to movies, it is not hard to reach 35TB.
post #225 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Rippig your own store bought bluray disc to mkv is also a violation of your user agreement and also illegal.

Good thing I did not agree to anything of the sort when I purchased my discs.
post #226 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

Good thing I did not agree to anything of the sort when I purchased my discs.

You did when you opened the package according to Hollywood.

Don't hate me. I am just the messenger.
post #227 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

You did when you opened the package according to Hollywood.

Nope, I made no such agreement. In fact, according to me, no packages I open result in any contract or agreement, without my explicit signature.
post #228 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

Nope, I made no such agreement. In fact, according to me, no packages I open result in any contract or agreement, without my explicit signature.

Again, I am just reporting what is considered by many/most to be interpreted as the law (as deemed "law" by Hollywood. Its actually a civil issue from what I understand although I am no lawyer). Its silly to me that some condone ripping your own store bought blurays while thumbing their nose at torrent users or downloaders.

To be technical they are both illegal and against how Hollywood wants you to use your media.

Again, I am just reporting here.

Here is another take...

http://lifehacker.com/5978326/is-it-legal-to-rip-a-dvd-that-i-own
Quote:
Dear Lifehacker,
Is it actually legal for me to rip all of my DVDs and Blu-Ray discs? Most of the articles I'm reading aren't very clear, so I want to know if there's an actual, definitive answer. Am I going to get sued if I rip all my discs for playback on my computer?

Sincerely,
Rip-It Ralph

Dear Ralph,
You ask a number of different questions at once, so let's break this down into its most basic parts. The legality of ripping is a very confusing situation where you'll hear a number of different answers. Here's what you need to know. Note that we're focusing on US law here; other countries may have different laws, so check with a lawyer in your country for more details if you're not in the US.

Ripping copy-protected DVDs is illegal...

To answer the legality question, we called on our legal expert Derek Bambauer, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Arizona who focuses on internet law and intellectual property. While the legality of ripping is very complicated, the legality of ripping copy-protected content—which includes nearly every DVD and Blu-Ray disc you'd buy in the store—is a bit simpler:

"The moment you crack DRM (Digital Rights Managemnt) to rip the DVD, you've violated Title I of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. 17 U.S.C. 1201 prohibits circumvention of DRM . . . Some courts have tried to leaven this rather harsh rule, but most have not. While it's typically hard to detect small-scale circumvention, the question is whether bypassing DRM is legal. The statute sets up some minor exceptions, but our ripper doesn't fall into any of them. So, the moment a studio protects the DVD with DRM, it gains both a technical and a legal advantage—ripping is almost certainly unlawful."

We've talked about this a bit before—in fact, it's one of the ways most of us are breaking the law every day without even knowing it. There are minor exceptions—like for educational purposes—but in general no, ripping a DVD you own is sadly not legal. However, will you get caught? Well...there, you have some wiggle room.

...but you probably won't get caught...

If you don't particularly care about the legality, but are only worried you're going to get sued, then you have a distinct advantage. As long as you don't share the files, it's highly unlikely you'd ever get caught for this, since it all happens locally on your computer, with no internet connection necessary, so no one can "snoop" on what you're doing. Unless you were to have your hard drives seized by the authorities for one reason or another, no one will know.P

Does that mean you should go rip your entire collection to your home theater PC? As always, that decision is up to you, whether you want to always stay on the right side of the law or take the (admittedly) minimal risk.

...and hopefully, it won't stay this way forever

This is the law as it stands right now, but as Derek mentioned, some courts have tried to change this section of the DCMA, but we've yet to achieve any real movement. However, ripping music CDs used to be considered illegal as well, until the RIAA decided to officially permit it (though they've waffled on that statement a bit from time to time). The MPAA is notoriously more stubborn, but as ripping becomes more common practice, we're hopeful that we could see this change in the future—or at least see an online store where you could download movies not riddled with DRM. Right now, though, this is just a hope, and as it stands, ripping a DVD you own is still considered illegal—as hard as it may be to enforce.

Sincerely,
Lifehacker
post #229 of 322
I am aware of the DMCA. But that is not what we were discussing. You claimed that ripping a blu-ray is a violation of some "user agreement". I simply pointed out that I made no such agreement. I do not dispute that ripping a blu-ray is probably a violation of the DMCA, but that is another subject.
post #230 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by jim2100 View Post

I am aware of the DMCA. But that is not what we were discussing. You claimed that ripping a blu-ray is a violation of some "user agreement". I simply pointed out that I made no such agreement. I do not dispute that ripping a blu-ray is probably a violation of the DMCA, but that is another subject.

Fair enough. My point was that both are illegal. One is free and one is not. One is not, imo, "less wrong" than the other.

That's is all. I will get off the soapbox now.

Back on topic...
post #231 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Fair enough. My point was that both are illegal. One is free and one is not. One is not, imo, "less wrong" than the other.

Do you really mean "less wrong" or do you mean "less illegal"?

I'd be rather flabbergasted to see someone such as yourself say (essentially) there's no point buying discs since it's no "less wrong" than not paying for what you watch and downloading it off the internet. IMO ripping a disc you purchased (and still own) is not "wrong" (though it maybe be illegal, but we don't know for sure until the DMCA sees a court case for personal use ripping), while downloading (and not paying for the content) is clearly both "wrong" and illegal, as is ripping from Netflix/Redbox/friends since the defacto license agreement only allows you to view the content while you own the disc (see Kaleidescape and how the disc has to be in the system to play the rip).
post #232 of 322
Well I agree with what's said about the media ... While I have 35TB of Space 10tb is empty so that right that makes things a little more realistic.

For blu rays I only have about 2 HDDs worth (3TB). I have about the same of TV, with all my non HD stuff (DVD) fitting on a single drive.

I don't actually have 35TB of media ... Only a 35TB media server. There's a difference.

Lots of people also use server as storage for games, pictures , software, music , back ups etc....

I guess where things get fuzzy for me is I don't understand the correlation between amount of media you have and hardware RAID versus software RAID.

If I only had 1 bluray or a million the differences and benefits between hardware and software raid would still be the same.

I have no objection to hardware RAID except it requires a much larger up front investment to do it properly with a viable future as a long term solution. I'm not sure many that can afford it actually would choose to afford it- it seems beyond the scale and scope of your average person. It's decidedly a higher end enthusiast solution that's not good for everyone. That's my point.

Some of the folks that can afford it won't care enought to want to invest that heavy.

Some of the folks won't be able to afford it.

Some of the folks that can afford it won't have the technical ability to build and set it up too.

It's a solution for a certain person in a certain situation. I'd tend to think a MFG NAS box might blur the lines since its into consumer territory - but to be specific I'm comparing 30TB+ solutions and thinking 20 bay hot swap chassis not some crummy 3 or 4 bay breadbox. But if you keep budgets the same usually software RAID holds up even on a 4 HDD system.
post #233 of 322
I have the Stargate Atlantis series on BluRay (20 discs) and I ripped the entire series (830GB for 5 seasons) to my HDDs (for educational purposes only as a test to see how much room it would take up in reality vs just doing the math, just so you know NSA and MPAA since you are reading this). The Stargate SG1 series is 55 discs large, but I have that on DVD...still takes up a huge amount of space (374GB for 10 seasons).
post #234 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Do you really mean "less wrong" or do you mean "less illegal"?

I'd be rather flabbergasted to see someone such as yourself say (essentially) there's no point buying discs since it's no "less wrong" than not paying for what you watch and downloading it off the internet. IMO ripping a disc you purchased (and still own) is not "wrong" (though it maybe be illegal, but we don't know for sure until the DMCA sees a court case for personal use ripping), while downloading (and not paying for the content) is clearly both "wrong" and illegal, as is ripping from Netflix/Redbox/friends since the defacto license agreement only allows you to view the content while you own the disc (see Kaleidescape and how the disc has to be in the system to play the rip).

I am saying that technically both are wrong/illegal as determined by our legal system and Hollywood (they are one and the same btw). Its up to each individual to draw conclusions from that decision. I am not the moral police and never will be --- what you do in your own home is your own business. What is a peeve of mine is someone on AVS or other websites who scold people for one wrong/illegal act (again, as determined by our lawmakers) while not dismissing ALL wrong/illegal acts that apply to the same subject.

By the strictest definition both ripping and downloading are both illegal. Since illegal acts are deemed by society as "wrong" both ripping and downloading are indeed "wrong".

Again, I don't agree with any of this and am just reporting here. My point is that every time you rip that $30 bluray that you bought onto a hard drive it is deemed "wrong" by some lawmakers/Hollywood and if they ever were to take you to court it is almost certain that you would lose just like Kaleidescape lost (see below).

BTW you are incorrect about Kaleidescape --- they were tested by the courts and lost. Their product was ruled illegal. Again, I don't agree and am just reporting here.

http://hometheaterreview.com/kaleidescape-servers-cant-be-sold-because-of-injunction/

Edit:

This statement you made
Quote:
since the defacto license agreement only allows you to view the content while you own the disc

also is not correct. You can only view the content on the actual PHYSICAL disc. The minute you try to view the content on anything else (hard drive, flash drive, streaming device, etc) you have committed an illegal act. That's why it doesn't matter if you actually own the disc or not as it is irrelevant. Merely bypassing playback on the actual PHYSICAL disc is illegal.

Ridiculous but, unfortunately, accurate.
Edited by assassin - 9/10/13 at 7:08am
post #235 of 322
So it comes down to if it was decided to take someone from each camp to court for a 35TB collection of media... The person that bought $25k of Blu-ray discs and ripped them will be found guilty of copyright infringement the same as the person that downloaded 35TB of media. However, the one that downloaded the media has $25k not spent on discs to pay towards a lawyer plus he doesn't have a closet of discs to deal with.
post #236 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryansj View Post

So it comes down to if it was decided to take someone from each camp to court for a 35TB collection of media... The person that bought $25k of Blu-ray discs and ripped them will be found guilty of copyright infringement the same as the person that downloaded 35TB of media. However, the one that downloaded the media has $25k not spent on discs to pay towards a lawyer plus he doesn't have a closet of discs to deal with.

Exactly.

Its an absolutely ridiculous rule imo.
post #237 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

BTW you are incorrect about Kaleidescape --- they were tested by the courts and lost. Their product was ruled illegal. Again, I don't agree and am just reporting here.

http://hometheaterreview.com/kaleidescape-servers-cant-be-sold-because-of-injunction/

That's regarding their lawsuit with DVD CCA. They have a different system in place for Blu-ray (requiring the disc to reside in the system) and to my knowledge they haven't run into legal trouble with the BDA. My comments were regarding the BDA.
Quote:
This statement you made
also is not correct. You can only view the content on the actual PHYSICAL disc. The minute you try to view the content on anything else (hard drive, flash drive, streaming device, etc) you have committed an illegal act. That's why it doesn't matter if you actually own the disc or not as it is irrelevant. Merely bypassing playback on the actual PHYSICAL disc is illegal.

If we're going to stick to being very specific, your comment is not accurate either. The illegal part is bypassing the encryption. For example CDs are perfectly legal to rip, however the unwritten license agreement (if you want to use that term) is you can listen to that music while you own the disc.

IMO the same applies to DVDs and Blu-ray's you're allowed to use the content while the disc is in your possesion. The caveat is with most DVD/BD you have to decide if you want to run afoul of the DMCA by bypassing the CSS/AACS/BD+.

But just because you decided personally it's OK to bypass encryption, doesn't mean it's equally OK to rip from Netflix or download, they are not all equivalent.
post #238 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

That's regarding their lawsuit with DVD CCA. They have a different system in place for Blu-ray (requiring the disc to reside in the system) and to my knowledge they haven't run into legal trouble with the BDA. My comments were regarding the BDA.
If we're going to stick to being very specific, your comment is not accurate either. The illegal part is bypassing the encryption. For example CDs are perfectly legal to rip, however the unwritten license agreement (if you want to use that term) is you can listen to that music while you own the disc.

IMO the same applies to DVDs and Blu-ray's you're allowed to use the content while the disc is in your possesion. The caveat is with most DVD/BD you have to decide if you want to run afoul of the DMCA by bypassing the CSS/AACS/BD+.

But just because you decided personally it's OK to bypass encryption, doesn't mean it's equally OK to rip from Netflix or download, they are not all equivalent.

But "the same" does not apply to DVD and Blu-rays that have movies or other copyrighted material on them as they require you to by pass encryption. That's the point and why both acts are indeed illegal.

There really is no gray area here. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Both are "wrong" (illegal) as determined by Hollywood and the legal system.
post #239 of 322
Kaleidescape's case was pretty interesting. It wasn't about DVD ripping, it was a patent licensing issue.

When someone copies a DVD onto their PC with decryption software like AnyDVD it removes the CSS encryption from the ripped copy.

Kaleidescape's software copied discs to their server with CSS intact. They licensed the appropriate keys for their playback clients that any legitimate DVD player would need to read the discs. So the decryption key was at the playback stage, not the ripping one.

The DVD CCA said that the way they were using the keys they licensed was in violation of the license agreement.
post #240 of 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Kaleidescape's case was pretty interesting. It wasn't about DVD ripping, it was a patent licensing issue.

When someone copies a DVD onto their PC with decryption software like AnyDVD it removes the CSS encryption from the ripped copy.

Kaleidescape's software copied discs to their server with CSS intact. They licensed the appropriate keys for their playback clients that any legitimate DVD player would need to read the discs. So the decryption key was at the playback stage, not the ripping one.

The DVD CCA said that the way they were using the keys they licensed was in violation of the license agreement.

To me the whole thing just stinks and leaves you open to the *potential* of litigation. That's all I am saying.
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