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**The Official Chane M&C 'Arx' owner's thread (A1, A1b, A2, A2b, A3, A5, etc.)** - Page 9

post #241 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by riddledwitlead View Post

It's like I watch only my team, and one other .. Even though there's a bunch of teams.. A true fan watches them all. Or a snobby fan just there's . Just help me out..


A true fan of baseball doesn't watch the Mets.....................just sayin'..........wink.gif...
post #242 of 491
Having had the opportunity to reacquaint myself with all four models by way of the now-complete redevelopment of both the A2(c) and A3(c) platforms, I would like to take a moment to touch on this one last time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsianMan View Post

The Arx A5 treble was crisp and any comments about forwardness was directed at this range only. I just thought that long term listening may lead to a headache or ears hurting. The midrange was not as present as I would want and maybe I mean warm. The midrange (or what i think of mids) just felt overshadowed by vocals and sounds like cymbals. I also thought that voices didn't have the timbre I expected.

Frankly, the A5 audibly has the most relaxed treble in the range. It's slightly the warmest model in the range too.

Neither trait are strikingly so, but of all models, the A5 has just a touch of reserve in the highs that the A1b and A2c, for example, need ever so slightly more of to be balanced. The A5 is a powerful bass system and has a trace more underlying power down low that at even low volumes hints at what it can do when pushed harder in larger rooms, its natural best home. At no time in our system and room can I make this model become even slightly bright. I cannot get it to harmonically fracture unless I overdrive the amplifier, at which point is an amplifier issue.

Buford's comments about the A5s midrange drive also came to mind in tuning the A2c and A3c against the A1b and A5: The A5 has a light and lift in the midrange that indicates it's got that extra something you can get from a three-way system. There's just more information there, and while the A5 may be considered a choice for a higher-output home theater, to me it actually has the illumination and perspective that this week for me made a single acoustical guitar a somewhat more engaging experience than it did from the two-way models. I love the sheer integration potential of simple systems, but in this case they cannot go as loud or mine quite as as much middle-range information as the three-way.

I have to admit that the remarks above are one of the more genuinely perplexing commentaries I've tried to sort out. There are things I wish all four models could do that they naturally cannot, and the A5 is no exception. I wish it could embody the sheer scope and pop of a classic time-aligned design. I wish it could hit a solid 25Hz. I wish it imaged like a point-source fullrange driver, soundstaged like a linesource, and had the immediacy of a great horn system. It cannot but within its limits I honestly cannot say I find it - or even make it - either bright or fatiguing.

TAI routinely offers advice about sources and amplification and I think this could be one of those times. The A5 is a 5 ohm speaker, rated nominally at 6. It is sensitive, and from its 5.25" woofers does not reproduce the bottom octave. It will absolutely respond to what it's being driven with and from and it will probably not like amplifier sections that struggle into 4 ohm loads. It will translate the sounds of the front end and electronics as it should.

In this thread I'd like to recommend medium-sized power amplifiers of good instantaneous current delivery capacity at the same time I recommend against typical low current Big Brand receivers. The A5 is not intended for a $500, or in some cases, even a $900 receiver with far more of a feature set than a real amplifier section. It's intended to be driven by a electrically-capable amplifier of as little as 40w - it was voiced on, among other things, a 15w differential current-sourced ZNFB triode amplifier with very fast recovery time and very low distortion. An equivalent solid state amplifier technically doesn't exist and the user certainly won't need one, but a 40w@8r / 80w@4r amplifier from a good brand is going to give excellent, comparable results. The same holds for a 125w/~180w rated amplifier.

As always, if we can help out with more specific suggestions, please call on us to do so.
post #243 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by padgman1 View Post

Of course, we Arx owners will be able to afford our dinner at Denny's with the change left over.

That got a chuckle...
post #244 of 491
HI Jon. Would you be considering designing a 3-way bookshelf or stand-mount speaker? A design like that could possibly pry open my wallet again. I would probably start drooling on myself if you designed a 3-way center.
Edited by Hyrlyfrm - 3/27/13 at 7:40am
post #245 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrlyfrm View Post

HI Jon. Would you be considering designing a 3-way bookshelf or stand-mount speaker? A design like that could possibly pry open my wallet again. I would probably start drooling on myself if you designed a 3-way center.

With the revised tweeter here, and with the A2c and A3c finally entering production, the A4 onwall surround model and an A6 WT/MW LCR are next. The A6 is about to proto and will use a pair of 6.5" SplitGaps flanking a tweeter and midrange vertically aligned between them. It'll be acoustic suspension and designed for boundary loading - functionally it'll be a compact, portless, LCR'd A5.

A while back we'd considered a classic stand three-way using a 6.5" SplitGap under the 5.25" mid and planar tweeter, but I think to really offer a difference it'd need to be an 8" bass system, which could put it in the fairly unpopular class of large floor-standed speakers - think large studio monitors or the classic big-woofered, big Japanese multiway. I think it'd sound great but the form factor is a challenge.

Our brands will start to integrate together this year, and one of the moves we're making is into US-made stuff. All aspects of larger new products will rise, including price, but I can see a big studio-style 3-way somewhere out there. They happen to make a lot of sense acoustically and design-wise, but wide speakers are challenging to fit into either the room or the marketplace.
post #246 of 491
Ok, I think I'm already drooling over the A6. Thanks, Jon. Do you have a target price range for a pair of them in mind yet?
post #247 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

With the revised tweeter here, and with the A2c and A3c finally entering production, the A4 onwall surround model and an A6 WT/MW LCR are next. The A6 is about to proto and will use a pair of 6.5" SplitGaps flanking a tweeter and midrange vertically aligned between them. It'll be acoustic suspension and designed for boundary loading - functionally it'll be a compact, portless, LCR'd A5.

A while back we'd considered a classic stand three-way using a 6.5" SplitGap under the 5.25" mid and planar tweeter, but I think to really offer a difference it'd need to be an 8" bass system, which could put it in the fairly unpopular class of large floor-standed speakers - think large studio monitors or the classic big-woofered, big Japanese multiway. I think it'd sound great but the form factor is a challenge.

Our brands will start to integrate together this year, and one of the moves we're making is into US-made stuff. All aspects of larger new products will rise, including price, but I can see a big studio-style 3-way somewhere out there. They happen to make a lot of sense acoustically and design-wise, but wide speakers are challenging to fit into either the room or the marketplace.

Thats sounds great. Once the A2c and A4 get here, I think the Arx brand will take off even more than it already has. The A6 is definitely on my radar as I'd like a larger center and the A6 fits the bill.

Dual 6.5"s wouldn't have any more surface area than the triple 5.25" of the A5 so, I can see it not making much sense. Really once I started thinking about it, I think A1, A2, A3, A4, A5 and A6 is more than enought models for speaker wise. I think the line could probably benefit much more with 2 or 3 models of subwoofers instead of a monster tower.

I'd like to see a 10" model, sealed or ported and the monster 12" dual passive you mentioned awhile ago.
post #248 of 491
The A6 sounds like my dream speaker. I may need to just sit tight and wait for that.
post #249 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

The A6 is definitely on my radar as I'd like a larger center and the A6 fits the bill.

Dual 6.5"s wouldn't have any more surface area than the triple 5.25" of the A5 so, I can see it not making much sense. Really once I started thinking about it, I think A1, A2, A3, A4, A5 and A6 is more than enought models for speaker wise. I think the line could probably benefit much more with 2 or 3 models of subwoofers instead of a monster tower.

I'd like to see a 10" model, sealed or ported and the monster 12" dual passive you mentioned awhile ago.

Agreed. First, the A6 is acoustically similar to the A5 but allows much different placement and use options than an A5. In this respect it's unique and something of a breakaway product that resembles that large mystery tower you mentioned more than the models numerically below it. I believe it'll be the first model that also uses crossover points and methods aimed at raising thermal headroom.

As for subs, I've always seen them as something we'd like to do but that aren't yet essential to the line. There are so many choices out there that an Arx sub - say, the 10" I've been discussing with some members of the TAI forum - really has to have something effective to offer. I think we'll do that thing, and I'm interested to see how it'll do.
post #250 of 491
All,

After applying Jon Lane's toe-in as well as a little 4 degree tilt back this weekend I am reporting increased depth, width and height in the sound staging presentation from the A1b's. The overall sonic signature seems a bit more refined in the upper regions...no doubt due to the planar re-alignment toe-in. The PSB B6's are now on the side, unplugged and will let them sit for a while as I'm enjoying the ARX A1b's so much more now. Great suggestions.
post #251 of 491
So you tipped back the speaker a little? Never heard of this. Is this just a planar thing?

...super curious
post #252 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

So you tipped back the speaker a little? Never heard of this. Is this just a planar thing?

...super curious

I've never tried it but i've heard before that it can help with imaging. Not just a planar/ribbon thing, dome tweeters can benefit from it too.
post #253 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

So you tipped back the speaker a little? Never heard of this. Is this just a planar thing?

...super curious

This was to compensate for the fact that the planar tweeters are well below ear height on his stands. He just oriented the tweeters toward his ears at the seated position.
post #254 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ousooner2 View Post

So you tipped back the speaker a little? Never heard of this. Is this just a planar thing?

...super curious

I've never tried it but i've heard before that it can help with imaging. Not just a planar/ribbon thing, dome tweeters can benefit from it too.

Chad I have several friends who orient their nearfield studio monitors like this for their editing quites now. They'll have the boxes themselves slightly below ear height (usually on reversed Auralex MOpads, so the front is angled up) with the tweeter aimed at their ear position. Genelec, Tannoy, etc...they all have dome tweeters in their monitors. They claim a benefit and each started with the monitors mounted high and aimed down.
post #255 of 491
Thread Starter 
Jon has just released the Arx A5c measurement plots for on-axis and 15 degree off-axis. He's damn close to having a 3rd gen tweeter USER RETROFIT KIT for current A5 owners as well.....a kit that he and I agreed was mandatory if it was AT ALL POSSIBLE to provide it at a reasonable cost to current loyal customers. The 3rd-gen planar has even lower distortion than the already impressive current tweeter (as is used in the A1b and is demonstrated in current A1b measurements). It is also slightly more efficient, so this must be compensated-for in the retrofit kit.

Jon is working on making it a complete bolt-on kit with the required additional components in-line with the tweeter leads...minimizing the work (and skill) required to install it. I'm not making any guarantees since we're still bouncing back and forth on exact values of the components (and manufacturers) so that the signature A5 dimensionality is preserved.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/forum/showthread.php?2018-Arx-A5c-response

Sign-in for the plots.
post #256 of 491
Just buy this:
Quote:
Get the Most Out of Your Speaker with this Speaker Tilter Adapter!
The K&M 19672 speaker tilt adapter lets you get maximum projection from your live speaker setup! Able to handle up to 66-lb. speakers, the 19672 tilter adapter firmly attaches to the top of your PA speaker stand with a convenient handknob. It's made to work with 35mm speaker stand tubes, as well as different speaker sizes. This tilter provides 15 degrees of tilt to put the sound where you need it most. If you want a safe and very affordable way to get the best performance out of your speakers and stands, the 19672 tilt adapter is a great choice!
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KM19672/

Only $50 a pop. smile.gif

If you buy them, I also recommend the ceramic speak cable lifters and resonance absorption balls. http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/nonamehifi_cl_rab.htm Only $110 for a set of six and $110 for a set of four, respectively...though that definitely eats into the Denny's money.
post #257 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Just buy this:
Quote:
Get the Most Out of Your Speaker with this Speaker Tilter Adapter!
The K&M 19672 speaker tilt adapter lets you get maximum projection from your live speaker setup! Able to handle up to 66-lb. speakers, the 19672 tilter adapter firmly attaches to the top of your PA speaker stand with a convenient handknob. It's made to work with 35mm speaker stand tubes, as well as different speaker sizes. This tilter provides 15 degrees of tilt to put the sound where you need it most. If you want a safe and very affordable way to get the best performance out of your speakers and stands, the 19672 tilt adapter is a great choice!
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KM19672/

Only $50 a pop. smile.gif

If you buy them, I also recommend the ceramic speak cable lifters and resonance absorption balls. http://www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/nonamehifi_cl_rab.htm Only $110 for a set of six and $110 for a set of four, respectively...though that definitely eats into the Denny's money.

Oh GAWD, cable lifters. rolleyes.gif

This would be simpler and cheaper, though any properly shaped foam product would work just as well:

http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-MOPAD-Isolation-Charcoal-speakers/dp/B0002D0B4K
Edited by BufordTJustice - 4/1/13 at 10:33pm
post #258 of 491
What's the matter Buford? Cable lifters keep the demons from touching your electrons.
post #259 of 491
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrlyfrm View Post

What's the matter Buford? Cable lifters keep the demons from touching your electrons.

Eh. You caught me. You're right.

Does anybody know where I can order a bottle of unicorn tears to lower distortion?????
post #260 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

Eh. You caught me. You're right.

Does anybody know where I can order a bottle of unicorn tears to lower distortion?????

PETA effectively shut down that industry. frown.gif They said it was cruel to subject unicorns to Justin Beiber music for hours on end. This time I actually agree with PETA.
post #261 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by lozoyad View Post

After applying Jon Lane's toe-in as well as a little 4 degree tilt back this weekend I am reporting increased depth, width and height in the sound staging presentation from the A1b's. The overall sonic signature seems a bit more refined in the upper regions...no doubt due to the planar re-alignment toe-in. The PSB B6's are now on the side, unplugged and will let them sit for a while as I'm enjoying the ARX A1b's so much more now. Great suggestions.

Good to hear, lozoyad. It's true that aligning each axis by ear will focus the sound and open up and define the soundstage. It will also provide the most illumination and smoothness. Part of this is the natural directivity of each driver in the system, but most of it is actually getting the mesh between them as correct as possible - getting the response designed into the crossover technically applies to one point in space and a neutral, transparent system will reveal it there.

As noted, monitor users in the studio and on desktop routinely pay around with aim. I've always done thus as a matter of course, and the results of getting it right are described just as you have. In floorstanding and horizontal MTM arrays we don't have this luxury on one axis and sometimes both, but the A1b and to some degree the A2 LCR model benefit from good aim.
post #262 of 491
So confused, I went back for a second demo... They hooked the psb t6 & rx6 to same amp and placement for me this time... psb.. Won... I trashed them a few weeks ago.. Sorry.. I then went to best buy.. I listened to a ton of things martin 40s , b&w cm9 , energy 700s , def tec 6020 & 6060 ... On a descent pioneer amp 170 by 7.. I also listened to 2 systems found on craigslist ... Old school acoustic research with 12s built in and 9.6 wharfedales... All I have to say is your room is 25% source/ recording 25% , 25% placement , 25% amp character and power.. It's funny all the bookshelves sounded really similar at the high end place that had carpet behind them.. Some more bass, a some a little Warmer .. But 300$ dollar books were comparable to 700$ speakers.. Getting ready to pull the trigger on the a5s..
post #263 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Good to hear, lozoyad. It's true that aligning each axis by ear will focus the sound and open up and define the soundstage. It will also provide the most illumination and smoothness. Part of this is the natural directivity of each driver in the system, but most of it is actually getting the mesh between them as correct as possible - getting the response designed into the crossover technically applies to one point in space and a neutral, transparent system will reveal it there.

As noted, monitor users in the studio and on desktop routinely pay around with aim. I've always done thus as a matter of course, and the results of getting it right are described just as you have. In floorstanding and horizontal MTM arrays we don't have this luxury on one axis and sometimes both, but the A1b and to some degree the A2 LCR model benefit from good aim.

Hi Jon,
So by toe in, the planar realign? Realign to what? to the midwoofer or to the other planar?
post #264 of 491
Any word on the A2c center release?
post #265 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwdump View Post

Any word on the A2c center release?

So far nothing. Its kind of disappointing, the A2 center hasn't been instock since last summer. Not sure what the problem is, just hope this isn't going to be typical of when a product runs out it takes a year to get back in.
post #266 of 491
Hey all! I just ordered a pair of A5's and am super excited to get them later this week! Moving into a house from an apartment and guess what.. The girlfriend gave me the entire basement biggrin.gif.

I will be using them as my new main's and will upgrade the center to a A2C when they become available again. I am replacing some horrible Polk Blackstone TL2's which are the loudspeakers in my current 5.1.

I'd recommend you guys test out a lossless version of "Play For Real (feat. The Heavy) - The Crystal Method. It would be a nice test to behold! I cant wait to post back once I have them all set up and powered through a TX NR-809 which should supply enough power.

Edit: Just read through all the pages in a few hours and ended up back at my post with no one to talk to, please don't let this beautiful thread die!
Edited by slansing - 7/8/13 at 9:09pm
post #267 of 491
Stew Nelless of Affordable Audio just reviewed the Arx A1b at http://www.affordableaudio.org/ after a six-month home trial.

The review is very favorable, but it's not well-written and poorly organized. If you read part of the review or skim it you will be left with mostly wrong impressions.
post #268 of 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicardoJoa View Post

So by toe in, the planar realign? Realign to what? to the midwoofer or to the other planar?

Sorry for missing this earlier. To align the drivers, set them up so you're approximately on axis or perpendicular to the spot between them on the front baffle. In the case of a small speaker this will require stands or shelves to lift them. With any of these models then add a good amount of toe in on the vertical axis.

From there turn the vertical axis or toe back outward so the speaker's side walls are about halfway between toed all the way in and square to the room. This is a good starting point and you can then experiment with both angles to dial in just the image focus and tonal balance you feel is most realistic.
post #269 of 491
To follow up to the nature of high frequency directivity from direct radiators, in my experience axial alignment by ear is beneficial to nearly any speaker. I can't remember ever finding that the best sound came from the best WAF...especially when three foot horns were involved. Mongo want man cave.

It's sometimes thought that planar-magnetic tweeters - or "ribbons", whether the word is used generically for all flat-panel tweeters or specifically for suspended foil types - have narrow dispersion. Dispersion is primarily based on diaphragm size and not the energizing principle. A 1" dome and a 1" round planar-magnetic tweeter will exhibit slightly but not fundamentally different patterns.

A 1" dome and a 72" planar or electrostat, on the other hand, will vary fundamentally. Likewise a 6" woofer and a 1" planar treble device and so on and so on. Directivity varies due fundamentally to diaphragm size. It just so happens that many rectangular planars and ribbons can have one of their dimensions significantly longer than the diameter of our 1" dome, and on that axis they will narrow their output as the result of one dimension being so much longer than the other. Their inherent operating principles do not contribute these differences.

Even very good domes have significant off axis attenuation as frequencies rise. This is a 26mm dome tweeter:



The 1" x 3" planar-magnetic tweeter we use varies surprisingly similarly, and in some instances flat panel tweeters can better the dispersion of a 1", somewhat acoustically transparent dome stood proud of its baffle, at least along the flat planar's short horizontal.axis.
post #270 of 491
Great info Jon, I have a question of similar nature to any of you with experience. Once I receive the A5's I plan to place them on two square pieces of oak I have treated and glued together, the bottom piece being roughly 3 inches larger in all 4 directions when looking down on them. Would it be a good idea to take the spikes from the A5 mounts and screw them into the bottom of the wood stands to help decrease resonance? I had originally built them for a pair of Tektondesigns M-Lores of which I decided not to purchase and instead chose the A5's, so the top piece of wood was suspended by thre PVC pipes, I just pulled them out and glued the top to the bottom due to the increased size of the A5's.

Any other acoustic properties I can add to this solid wood? The A5's will be decoupled slightly by thick fabric squares on all four corners.
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