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Emotiva XPA-2 or XPA-5 - Page 3

post #61 of 99
Isn't it true that the amps work harder to produce low frequency? If that is true, and a person is using a sub, wouldn't that mean their amps are working even less and therefore not need an amp?
post #62 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldiablos View Post

Isn't it true that the amps work harder to produce low frequency? If that is true, and a person is using a sub, wouldn't that mean their amps are working even less and therefore not need an amp?

As far as I know this is correct.

Taz, I would upgrade the AVR first. My opinion is that your tweeters blew due to age.
Upgrade the AVR first,if there are still issues with the tweeters consider an amp.
How old are the version 2's? Where are you buying the replacement tweeters from?
post #63 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

As far as I know this is correct.
Taz, I would upgrade the AVR first. My opinion is that your tweeters blew due to age.
Upgrade the AVR first,if there are still issues with the tweeters consider an amp.
How old are the version 2's? Where are you buying the replacement tweeters from?

I bought my receiver and the Paradigm system back in August 2001. It was originally just 7.1 and it consisted of the CC-370 V.2 for the C, 4 ADP-370 V.2 for SL, SR, SBL, and SBR, and a single PW-2200 V.1 sub. I recently added 2 more PW-2200 subs.

Last time 2 tweeters blew at the same time and I bought the diaphragms directly from Paradigm. I will check to see how many tweeters blew this time and I will order them from Paradigm, again. I checked with them and they still sell these diaphragms.

Btw, I was watching the Saving Private Ryan DTS DVD at reference level when the tweeter, or tweeters, blew this time. I don't remember what I was watching and at what volume when this happened the first time about 6 years ago.

My current receiver does 130w x 7, but like most receivers , this is the 2 channels driven rating. The 3010 and the 4520 do 140w x 9 and 150w x 9, respectively, and these are 2 channels driven ratings. My current receiver is THX Ultra2 certified, while the other two are THX Ultra2 Plus certified.

I plan on adding 1 pair of Paradigm Mini Monitor V.2 speakers that I already purchased for 9.3 surround. I may add another pair of these or Paradigm Atom Monitor speakers for 11.3 surround. If I upgrade to 9.3 should I consider an amp? I know at if I go to 11.3 I will definitely need at least a 2 channel amp. Thanks again.
post #64 of 99
Your receiver is about 12 years old? It sounds like you listen to movies at pretty high volumes and if you've been doing it for 12 years, I'd suspect the Onkyo getting old and it's not producing clean power at higher volumes. How hot is it when you've been at reference volume for an hour or so? I've got Paradigm Monitor 7v3 from 2003 and I've never had anything blown, but I set the volume so I'm gettting around 80db peaks or so.

In that time I've had a Denon 1802, 3803 and an Onkyo 876.
post #65 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnin' View Post

Your receiver is about 12 years old? It sounds like you listen to movies at pretty high volumes and if you've been doing it for 12 years, I'd suspect the Onkyo getting old and it's not producing clean power at higher volumes. How hot is it when you've been at reference volume for an hour or so? I've got Paradigm Monitor 7v3 from 2003 and I've never had anything blown, but I set the volume so I'm gettting around 80db peaks or so.
In that time I've had a Denon 1802, 3803 and an Onkyo 876.

It gets warm, but not hot. I have watched even two movies, back to back, at reference volumes and I can touch the receiver with my hands very comfortably. This last time I blew a tweeter, or more, I did some research and noticed that many other Paradigm owners had not blown anything, ever. I guess it may be the high volumes I listen to my system at. I have all of my speakers, with the exceptions of the subs, set to 75dB. The three subs are set to 85dB. I don't know how high my peaks get, but the speakers and subs get extremely loud when action sequences are happening. I absolutely love it because I can feel the sound. The tweeter, or tweeters, blew in the beginning battle of Saving Private Ryan. This occurred around the time the battle was ending.

So if I like listening at reference, will an amp help protect my tweeters, or will I just gain the ability to blow the mid range speakers and the woofers?
post #66 of 99
109 dB is VERY loud. Scroll down a little on that SPL calculator page and you'll see it's about like a jet flyover 300 feet over your head. That would have my ears hurting...
post #67 of 99
The general rule of thumb is you can comfortably run speakers with more power than they are rated, as long as it's clean. So a 200 watt per channel amp wouldn't be an issue. But, you really like to crank it by the sound of it, so the question is, how much power is getting to the speakers during a peak? Being that you made it several years before a tweeter blown, it could either be that the Onkyo has gotten past its best before date, or that over time you occasionally peaked enough over the years to have worn out your tweeters. Or it could be both, it's a bit of a grey area.

But one thing is for sure, your Onkyo is old and very outdated, room correction and HDMI and a host of other improvements has made the current receiver quite impressive by comparison. The only thing is for most of them, the amp sections aren't what they used to be, a receiver that boasts 125 wpc will dip down to below 80 with all channels driven. With your love for volume and therefore power, only a few flagship models might suit you.

But you need to inspect your speakers. Try this test for you mid-range and woofers in the speakers. With the system off, gently push in each driver say 1/8" and let it return repeatedly. Do you feel any scratching while the driver is moving? This would indicate some damage to them as well. I'd say, if you have no damage there, then just replace the tweeters and get a separate amp. You could consider a new receiver to run the amp as well and it will depend on how many channels you want, the Onkyos offer pretty good bang for buck.

For an amp, some of the best options price wise are from Interenet direct companies that sell on line only. A 3 or 5 channel amp from emotiva.com or Outlawaudio.com would be my suggestion at 200 wpc. I have amps from both and for movies you can't go wrong with either of them.
post #68 of 99
My guess the speakers are the culprit, not the amp... Speakers do tend to wear out, surrounds dry out and become inelastic, flexing eventually breaks the wires to the voice coil, etc.
post #69 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio newbie View Post

I’m sorry if I hijack this thread, but I think my question is very similar. If I do, I’m sorry. I’m thinking about getting the Emotiva XPA-3 to improve my two channel music as well. My current system consists of the Denon AVR3312CI and PS3. For the same amount of money, I was wondering if I should spend the money on the OPPO BDP 93 instead of the Emotiva XPA-3. Would the OPPO BDP 93 improve my two channel music over the Emotiva XPA-3 for my system? Thanks

I'm thinking that the PS3 would have more " system noise " than a stand alone player since it is basically a computer in a small package. I'm no expert on the signal to noise ratio on the PS3 though. Only thing I know is the PS3 has a S/N of 94dB and the Oppo BDP-103 has a S/N of 115dB which means the Oppo SHOULD be quieter noise-wise. Whether that translates into improvements in 2-channel music or not, I'm not sure.

Oppo is no longer making the BDP-93. The BDP-103 should be out in October with some added features over the BDP-93. I'm finally going to replace my Denon 2500BTci with something a little more versatile. I don't think you can go wrong with a stand-alone player for CD/DVD/BD
post #70 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

My current receiver does 130w x 7, but like most receivers , this is the 2 channels driven rating. The 3010 and the 4520 do 140w x 9 and 150w x 9, respectively, and these are 2 channels driven ratings. My current receiver is THX Ultra2 certified, while the other two are THX Ultra2 Plus certified.
I plan on adding 1 pair of Paradigm Mini Monitor V.2 speakers that I already purchased for 9.3 surround. I may add another pair of these or Paradigm Atom Monitor speakers for 11.3 surround. If I upgrade to 9.3 should I consider an amp? I know at if I go to 11.3 I will definitely need at least a 2 channel amp. Thanks again.

That is exactly what I did when I went to 11.2. I'm using the .3 sub pre-out for transducers. My receiver ( Denon AVR-5308ci ) does about 140 watts per channel with all 7 channels driven, as measured by Home Theater Magazine ( HT Labs. ) If the HT Labs review of the Denon 3312 and Onkyo 1009 is any indication, the 3010 and 4520 will probably come in at around 100 watts per channel driving 7 channels. Dividing a transformer into 9 parts and having ample power for each channel isn't an easy task. I was actually looking at the Emotiva XPA-5 but ended up getting a decent deal on the XPR-5 at EmoFest. I only have a handful of BDs with NATIVE 7.1 surround, so a 5-channel amp made sense to me. I have plenty ( probably more than I really need ) of power for the 5.1 discs and the Denon only has to drive two channels with 7.1 discs.
post #71 of 99
The German magazine "audiovision" has a review an the Onkyo TX-NR 5010 and the Marantz 7007 in its current issue.
The Marantz has been tested with 7x70 rms Watt at 6 Ohm, the Onkyo with 7x 78 Watt rms at 6 Ohm.
Extrapolating this to 9 channel would mean something like 9x 62 Watt rms at 6 Ohm for the Onkyo.
The brand new Denon 4529 will be in the same vicinity, looking at its power supply and the power amps data published.
Those data make it more plausible to go for an external power amp.
post #72 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by audio newbie View Post

I’m sorry if I hijack this thread, but I think my question is very similar. If I do, I’m sorry. I’m thinking about getting the Emotiva XPA-3 to improve my two channel music as well. My current system consists of the Denon AVR3312CI and PS3. For the same amount of money, I was wondering if I should spend the money on the OPPO BDP 93 instead of the Emotiva XPA-3. Would the OPPO BDP 93 improve my two channel music over the Emotiva XPA-3 for my system? Thanks

I'm thinking that the PS3 would have more " system noise " than a stand alone player since it is basically a computer in a small package. I'm no expert on the signal to noise ratio on the PS3 though. Only thing I know is the PS3 has a S/N of 94dB and the Oppo BDP-103 has a S/N of 115dB which means the Oppo SHOULD be quieter noise-wise. Whether that translates into improvements in 2-channel music or not, I'm not sure.

Oppo is no longer making the BDP-93. The BDP-103 should be out in October with some added features over the BDP-93. I'm finally going to replace my Denon 2500BTci with something a little more versatile. I don't think you can go wrong with a stand-alone player for CD/DVD/BD

Ah, I was thinking you were using digital connections. I am using HDMI for connecting both my Oppo and PS3. I have not compared analog outputs. Might be an interesting test, but low on my priority list since I am tired of fooling aorund behind all the gear. smile.gif A friend of mine may have but I am not sure the results; he picked up the high-end Oppo 95 predecessor but last time I asked he wasn't sure he heard significant difference between its analog and HDMI outputs. I do not know if he actually compared Oppo to PS3 analog.
post #73 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

My guess the speakers are the culprit, not the amp... Speakers do tend to wear out, surrounds dry out and become inelastic, flexing eventually breaks the wires to the voice coil, etc.

I checked all of the mid range speakers, woofers, and subs last night, all 21 of these things. To my surprise they were all in great shape after all these years of being driven hard. I checked the flexibility by pushing them in and all of them were smooth and none of the voice coils were scratchy. The diaphragm surrounds were all intact, without any rips. Now I have to listen to all of the tweeters to see how many blew.

I will be ordering an XPA-5 to put less stress on the current receiver and soon-to-be-purchased next receiver. I am going to wait until November to see if an XPA-7 is released. I will probably go with the Onkyo 3010 or the soon-to-be-released Denon 4520.
post #74 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

True, but do we really need a 300 watt amp paired with speakers that can
Handle 130 watts maximum.. Seems like overkill to me and a waste of resources
For questionable return on investment.

doesn't really matter if it's too much power. There is no such thing as too much POWER tongue.gif.... either way, with more power, generally you get more control, a much better sound stage...
post #75 of 99
^^^

and why would that be?

"more power" that is not used csnnot possibly effect anything..
post #76 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I would all-but guarantee that you have more clean power on tap with your Yamaha AVR than you will EVER need.
With just sixty watts of input those speakers will play at 100+ dbs at 12 feet.
But I'm guessing that you- like countless others- are absolutely dead-set on buying an amp instead of making other much more meaningful, sensible (and likely, less costly) room improvements.
Horse, meet water.
James

what would you do to make your hometheater room better? How would you or could make it better?
post #77 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
and why would that be?
"more power" that is not used csnnot possibly effect anything..

i agree, but at the same time, it provides more control and sustenance even at lower listening levels. I personally have a classe 5 ch amp and i love it. I HEAR the difference between that and my old Elite receiver. It;s impossible to deny that the quality of sound is improved.

But buying better speakers, should be much higher on the list rather than buying an amp.

I barely go over 50 watts, but at 50 watts in my classe i get way more control of the sound stage, over 50 watts from my elite...
post #78 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
and why would that be?
"more power" that is not used csnnot possibly effect anything..

i am also a guy who has spent way too much money.....mad.gif
post #79 of 99
Nice sale going on at Emotiva, looking at the XPA 2 at $679 delivered, that's great!! smile.gif

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa2
post #80 of 99
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jphilip View Post

doesn't really matter if it's too much power. There is no such thing as too much POWER tongue.gif.... either way, with more power, generally you get more control, a much better sound stage...


I stand by my statement. And I am not buying into yours one bit;)
I have extensive experience with the Paradigm Monitor speakers
In question having owned 3 different models. I even bought into the
"MORE POWER is better" crap. My Marantz was putting out a solid 80
Watts per channel into 5 speakers. I purchased a pair of 250 watt
Mono-blocks for my Monitor 11's. Didn't make a bit of difference.

I would be willing to wager that with the OP's speakers and equipment
And the "POWER amp" of your choice,you would not be able to hear
The difference blind folded!!!
post #81 of 99
Why should "more power is better" make any audible difference as long as no dynamic compression takes place and the amp is not clipping ?
This is just an unproven myth.
Room size, speaker efficiency plus power rating and sound level to be achieved are the three (four ?) most relevant points to consider and have to be correlated whilst choosing an amp.
A monster amp and a rather lowly speaker set usually won't match and will not make any audible difference.
An adequate amp plus a better speaker set plus acoustic room correction measures will most certainly be audible (in a positive sense)
Note: "Power is nothing without control..." and the best speakers you can afford, i may add
Edited by gurkey - 11/14/12 at 3:16am
post #82 of 99
Believe it or not I agree with you. But I have used amps with inadequate power, a Yamaha DSP-A1, that frequently clipped while watching movies. The biggest reason for separate amps is speakers with low impedance and sensitivity. Yes, one should spend most on speakers, mine use ScanSpeak and Eton drivers, are actively crossed over and are the best I've heard. The tweeter amp has far more power than needed but so what? More power generally doesn't hurt.
I would not recommend separate high powered amps to most people but would recommend better speakers and only then, if the amplifier clipped, get a more powerful amp.
post #83 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by jphilip View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

I would all-but guarantee that you have more clean power on tap with your Yamaha AVR than you will EVER need.
With just sixty watts of input those speakers will play at 100+ dbs at 12 feet.
But I'm guessing that you- like countless others- are absolutely dead-set on buying an amp instead of making other much more meaningful, sensible (and likely, less costly) room improvements.
Horse, meet water.
James

what would you do to make your hometheater room better? How would you or could make it better?

 

Room treatments. The room is the most important component in the system and improving it will yield far bigger benefits than changing electronics.

post #84 of 99
Good room acoustics will not compensate for bad speakers or vice versa. I think they are both necessary.
post #85 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Good room acoustics will not compensate for bad speakers or vice versa. I think they are both necessary.

True. But even the best speakers will not sound great in a poor room. And you'd agree with me, I think, that the room is the most important component in the system (because it is the one that has the biggest impact on what we hear). Most people we see on AVS have fairly good speakers, but few have fairly good rooms, hence my assertion that room treatments will usually deliver the biggest improvement in SQ that anyone can get - and for less money than a speaker or hardware upgrade. The difference in SQ after treating a room is staggering. 


EDIT: I should add that many people cannot accommodate room treatments of course, usually for aesthetic reasons in a non-dedicated room. In this case, then  something like Audyssey XT32 is the next best thing and does a remarkable job (but is still no substitute for the real thing of course - especially wrt to nulls, which electronic EQ can't help much with at all. But we do often see dedicated rooms on AVS that have no treatments at all and this is difficult to understand and tends to make me think people just don't appreciate the harm that the room is doing to their SQ and the huge improvement they would get from treatment. Fretting about this amp or that amp and the (minimal) difference it will make to SQ is commonplace here, whereas the really big bang for the buck often goes ignored.

 

Sorry to sound like I am on my high horse :)


Edited by kbarnes701 - 11/14/12 at 5:22am
post #86 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Good room acoustics will not compensate for bad speakers or vice versa. I think they are both necessary.
True. But even the best speakers will not sound great in a poor room. And you'd agree with me, I think, that the room is the most important component in the system (because it is the one that has the biggest impact on what we hear). Most people we see on AVS have fairly good speakers, but few have fairly good rooms, hence my assertion that room treatments will usually deliver the biggest improvement in SQ that anyone can get - and for less money than a speaker or hardware upgrade. The difference in SQ after treating a room is staggering. 


EDIT: I should add that many people cannot accommodate room treatments of course, usually for aesthetic reasons in a non-dedicated room. In this case, then  something like Audyssey XT32 is the next best thing and does a remarkable job (but is still no substitute for the real thing of course - especially wrt to nulls, which electronic EQ can't help much with at all. But we do often see dedicated rooms on AVS that have no treatments at all and this is difficult to understand and tends to make me think people just don't appreciate the harm that the room is doing to their SQ and the huge improvement they would get from treatment. Fretting about this amp or that amp and the (minimal) difference it will make to SQ is commonplace here, whereas the really big bang for the buck often goes ignored.

Sorry to sound like I am on my high horse smile.gif

For Dedicated Home Theatre rooms acoustics must be part of the planning, budget, and execution, so stay on your high horse!

I got my XPA-3 not to improve the audio "PQ", my Denon 4520CI can handle that, rather to power the front soundstage so I can have full 11.x DSX!
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1435778/moving-past-7-1-5-1-into-9-1-11-1-upgrading-your-ht-room-via-audyssey-dsx-or-dolby-pl-iiz

My evolving HT has appropriate acoustic treatments, and I'm still evolving them as my acoustic understanding deepens.
>>Winter 2012-2013 plans: DIY diffusion on back wall
HT%2520Plan%25202x4%2520Seats-Riser-acoustics.JPG

You don't want to over absorb either (that's my daughter at bring child to work day earlier this year)
IMG_2547.jpg

Here's a 2 channel room with appropriate absorbers, diffusers, broadband bass traps, etc.
IMG_1683.jpg

IMG_1681.jpg

IMG_1682.jpg


Here is a good thread to learn about proper acoustic treatment needs identification, placement, and confirmation
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432713/using-waterfall-and-etc-graphs-to-analyze-room-response
post #87 of 99
Sorry for the rant.
Edited by Theresa - 11/15/12 at 2:01am
post #88 of 99
For the OP, if you want an amp, get a five channel amp and be done with debating on which speakers the amp should drive. There is a continuous debate on the need for amps on this forum, so get what you want. The biggiest improvemt to a system is speakers. You will be spending nearly the same for a 2 or 3 channel amp. 200 watts is plenty. I use external amps, not sure if I need them but, I like them and need no other reason to own them,smile.gif
post #89 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

For the OP, if you want an amp, get a five channel amp and be done with debating on which speakers the amp should drive. There is a continuous debate on the need for amps on this forum, so get what you want. 

 

 

Yes, I tend to agree with that too. If someone wants something, and can afford it, then why shouldn't they just get it!  My only caveat would be that the person is making an informed decision. So long as he understands that a bigger, shinier, more expensive amp might not actually result in any audible difference at all from his system, then he's good to go.  I think this is what people continually post about (me included) - so many people are spending their money on new amps when it isn't the solution to the problem they have, or believe they have. There are circumstances where a more powerful amp will yield substantial benefits, and circumstances where it won't. So long as that is clear in the buyer's mind, then I agree with you - buy what you want and enjoy it.

 

Quote:
The biggiest improvemt to a system is speakers. 

 

 

I'd put that second to room treatments personally. Putting a $500 speaker in a properly treated room can make it sound as good as a $10,000 speaker in a bad room. And vice-versa. (Maybe I exaggerate the prices a little there but the principle is sound) :)  Spending a few hundred dollars on room treatments will almost always give a far bigger return in terms of SQ than spending the same money on new speakers or a new amp.

 

Quote:
I use external amps, not sure if I need them but, I like them and need no other reason to own them,smile.gif

 

 

Absolutely!  But you'd be p***ed if you spent the money on them expecting a big difference in SQ and you didn't get it, right?  AAMOI, I have external amps, and needed them when I bought them (inefficient, difficult to drive 4 ohm speakers) and I love them. Not sure I need them now I have a different setup, but as you say, I like them and I need no other reason to own them (but I did make an informed decision when I bought them and knew precisely what I expected to achieve).

 

 

post #90 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Sorry for the rant.

 

Aw shucks!  I read it in the email alert and came to reply and now it's gone!  :)  TBH I didn't think it was a rant and you made some good points, as always. 

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