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Low bass output when listening to SACDs using the DSD setting - Page 3

post #61 of 87
10/12/12 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjensen View Post

Now that this is a confirmed issue with the Denon 4311/A100s, is there any word from Denon on whether or not they are willing/able to fix this issue and send out a firmware update?

This is definitely not a Denon issue only. After purchasing my Oppo 93 a couple of years ago in the 93 owners thread here on AVS Bob Pariseau, who is probably acknowledged there as the foremost expert user of the 93, posted in that thread his recommendation that SACD from the 93 should be output as PCM (if using HDMI and your AVR decodes SACD) exactly for the reason we are seeing here. He said this seems to be true for many if not all AVR's out there. He uses Anthem equipment and the "issue" is there in his system. Simple solution that I've used since is to send SACD out from my 93 as PCM and let my 4311 decode. This is not really a new discovery just some folks here (Jerry I think) actually did some metered/measured tests to verify it. I've posted Bob's recommendations on this subject several times over the years in a few threads here on AVS.

Again, by far not just a Denon "issue".
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post #62 of 87
10/12/12 at 1:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublej9886 View Post

Hey Bill,
I'm a newbie to SACD and looking to get into it sometime soon. I was curious, looking at the new OPPO 103, how you're toggling between HDMI 1 and 2 outputs. I read that DSD is only output through HDMI 2 but the Qdeo processing for video is only through HDMI 1. Do you have two HDMI inputs on your AVR or when watching blu-ray, will you have to switch the output from the OPPO each time?
Looking forward to your impressions of the 103.
Thanks,
Jon

Jon,

Welcome to the world of SACDs and Hi-Rez music, dust off your gold card wink.gif. I'm only using HDMI 1 as I haven't had time to do any DSD to PCM comparisons with the 103. But as far as toggling between HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 that would be a function of your AVR/prepro as you mentioned. Both HDMI outputs are always active. You can toggle between HDMI 1 and HDMI 2 inputs but that doesn't apply to what you asked. So far I'm very happy with the 103 and haven't really used many of the features yet. I have mostly listened to music and a watched a few Blurays.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbarrickman View Post

Did you ever get a chance to do this? I'm with you, it certainly IMHO looks like a
Denon issue (my tests have been using both AVR-4310 and 4311). Wonder if
this issue was addessed in the 4520?
+1 I am also interested in your impressions of the 103.
Thanks, David

David,

Unfortunately I haven't had the time to do anymore comparisons. I will hopefully have some time early next week as I have to dig out another HDMI cable. I plan on setting up a dedicated music listening function with my Harmony using the HDMI 2 output. I have a feeling nothing will change as far as the low bass levels with DSD go. I'm happy using PCM as I have let go of the "it has to be DSD" mindset wink.gif.

Bill
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post #63 of 87
10/26/12 at 12:40pm
Thread Starter 
I did a very quick comparison today between DSD and PCM with my 103. There still is an issue with low bass output when using DSD when compared to PCM. I'm starting to believe that the issue is that the +10dB LFE boost is being not applied to DSD by the 4311. When I have more time I'm going to set the LFE boost to 0dB for PCM to see if then the bass levels are close if not the same. It is too bad the 4311 does not have a boost offset for DSD. To be honest my curiousity is not at the level it once was with this issue. This is due to the fact that I'm quite happy using PCM for all SACDs.

*** Warning when fishing HDMI cables around in the back of your rack SHUT YOUR AMP AND OR AVR OFF *** Why would I stress this? Wellllllllll my HDMI cable fell across the banana plugs of my L Front speaker causing a nice little pop and then my amp shut down eek.gifrolleyes.gif. Luckily all is well as my amp powered right back up smile.gif. Huge lesson learned as this is audio 101 and I was too focused on fishing my HDMI cable behind my gear.

Bill
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post #64 of 87
10/26/12 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I did a very quick comparison today between DSD and PCM with my 103. There still is an issue with low bass output when using DSD when compared to PCM. I'm starting to believe that the issue is that the +10dB LFE boost is being not applied to DSD by the 4311. When I have more time I'm going to set the LFE boost to 0dB for PCM to see if then the bass levels are close if not the same. It is too bad the 4311 does not have a boost offset for DSD. To be honest my curiousity is not at the level it once was with this issue. This is due to the fact that I'm quite happy using PCM for all SACDs.
*** Warning when fishing HDMI cables around in the back of your rack SHUT YOUR AMP AND OR AVR OFF *** Why would I stress this? Wellllllllll my HDMI cable fell across the banana plugs of my L Front speaker causing a nice little pop and then my amp shut down eek.gifrolleyes.gif. Luckily all is well as my amp powered right back up smile.gif. Huge lesson learned as this is audio 101 and I was too focused on fishing my HDMI cable behind my gear.
Bill

 

Thanks for performing this test, Bill.  I agree with both of your conclusions:  first, the issue is at the AVR end, not the player end; and second, PCM sounds equally good compared with DSD.  I observed the 10dB issue with my 4308, my 4311, and now my 4520.  The issue was the same with my BDP-83 and my BDP-93.  I don't think it is a "bug", I think it is a failure on Denon's part to acknowledge that a 10dB boost needs to be applied. 

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post #65 of 87
4/1/13 at 7:27am
Thread Starter 
For the last week or so I have revisted the DSD vs. PCM comparison. Recently when listening to stereo SACDs I have found the SQ lacking using the stereo mode with Audyssey (flat). I decided to give the DSD setting another shot and decided to try the EXT. Input of my 4311 instead of HDMI. I'm finding that the music is not as congested with DSD/EXT Input as when using the stereo mode with Audyssey/HDMI. I recently bought Laura Nyro's Angel in the Dark SACD. This SACD is an excellent sounding stereo SACD that I find to be a great disc for this comparison. I used track 10 Ooh Baby, Baby for the comparison as it has LN's vocals, piano and cymbals to focus on. Although switching the 103 from PCM to DSD and HDMI to EXT In takes about ten seconds I'm finding there is a difference. The difference is very subtle but what I'm finding is a bit more clarity and air around the instruments. Vocals have a more natural feel to them that with PCM/Audyssey. I'm finding that the SongTowers sound excellent in full range and I do not miss the sub.

When I checked earlier in this thread for the low DSD issue I only used HDMI and had not checked the EXT Input. So with just my sub playing I played Steely Dan's Gaucho SACD and found that the low LFE level with DSD is also present. I found the difference to be about 5-6 dB which surprised me as I thought the signal from the 103 to the 4311 would be untouched when using the EXT Input.

I will continue to listen to multichannel SACDs with the PCM setting and Audyssey/HDMI. I find with 5.1 SACDs that Audyssey does an excellent job of EQing my sub. My surrounds also blend better with my LCR speakers as well. The BM and speaker settings with the 103 are not as fine as when using the 4311 so that is a big factor as well.

I know it is a PITA to be switching from DSD to PCM and to switch from the EXT Input from HDMI but I'm finding that the effort is worth it. Of course my thoughts on this could change as quick as the Maine weather wink.gif.

Bill
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post #66 of 87
4/1/13 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

When I checked earlier in this thread for the low DSD issue I only used HDMI and had not checked the EXT Input. So with just my sub playing I played Steely Dan's Gaucho SACD and found that the low LFE level with DSD is also present. I found the difference to be about 5-6 dB which surprised me as I thought the signal from the 103 to the 4311 would be untouched when using the EXT Input.

Bill

 

Interesting update, Bill.  Regarding the untouched signal, isn't it the issue that the LFE is recorded 10dB low, and the AVR is expected to boost the LFE by 10dB?  If the signal is untouched when using the EXT input, then one would not expect the AVR to be adding anything back.  Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

 

I have experimented with EXT in with my very capable main speakers, but my opinion is still that without the benefits of Audyssey room correction the sound just doesn't sound as good in my listening room. 

 

Jerry

 

Edit:  Where do you keep finding these SACD gems?  Did you buy that one on Audiogon?

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post #67 of 87
4/1/13 at 8:01am
The 10db boost is suppose to be added by the player, not AVR, when output from ananlog muli-ch jacks. Majority of the AVR will pass ExtIn/MultiIn straight to amp without any adjustment. We all have dealt with this 10db issue in early days of universal players where we don't have the luxury of HDMI yet. When using analog output of a player, the player will do the BM and 10db boost (or not in some players). You will have to setup the speaker sizes and distances (if there is such option) in the player to match your settings. Quite a few SACDs are mixed with only 5.0 and some even with 5.1 mix will have LFEs in main channels. So, in the end, a pair of full range front tower speakers is probably the best bet for proper bass levels.
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post #68 of 87
4/1/13 at 8:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Interesting update, Bill.  Regarding the untouched signal, isn't it the issue that the LFE is recorded 10dB low, and the AVR is expected to boost the LFE by 10dB?  If the signal is untouched when using the EXT input, then one would not expect the AVR to be adding anything back.  Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

I have experimented with EXT in with my very capable main speakers, but my opinion is still that without the benefits of Audyssey room correction the sound just doesn't sound as good in my listening room. 

Jerry

Edit:  Where do you keep finding these SACD gems?  Did you buy that one on Audiogon?

Jerry,

I'm not sure about the EXT Input of the 4311 as far it being a true bypass. I would have expected the LFE level to be untouched unless the differences I measured were due to the way the 103 handled the signal. My measurements were done very quickly and could actually be closer to 10dB. I wonder if the 103 is adding the 10dB LFE boost when using the PCM setting but is not when using the DSD setting. I think I'll contact Oppo to see if this is true. I'll also ask if it is possible for them to add a 10db LFE boost setting for DSD in a future FW update.

As far as finding the SACD gems it is just luck I guess smile.gif. I bought the LN SACD from someone that was selling off their SACD collection.

Bill
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post #69 of 87
4/1/13 at 8:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

The 10db boost is suppose to be added by the player, not AVR, when output from ananlog muli-ch jacks. Majority of the AVR will pass ExtIn/MultiIn straight to amp without any adjustment. We all have dealt with this 10db issue in early days of universal players where we don't have the luxury of HDMI yet. When using analog output of a player, the player will do the BM and 10db boost (or not in some players). You will have to setup the speaker sizes and distances (if there is such option) in the player to match your settings. Quite a few SACDs are mixed with only 5.0 and some even with 5.1 mix will have LFEs in main channels. So, in the end, a pair of full range front tower speakers is probably the best bet for proper bass levels.

Foxbat121,

Good points for sure. Do other universal players other than the Oppos add a 10dB boost when using the DSD setting? It seems to me that when using the PCM setting of the 103 the 10dB boost is being added. But when using the DSD setting it is not. If the Ext Input of the 4311 is a true bypass input then the LFE differences would be from the 103. When using the DSD setting with my 103 the speaker level settings are bypassed. I just tried raising and lowering the level of the left front speaker and the level does not change with the 103 set to DSD. I switched the 103 to the PCM setting and the speaker volume level does change when the levels are raised or lowered.

Bill
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post #70 of 87
4/1/13 at 8:36am
DSD settings typically will bypass all processing. So your assumption is correct. DSD setting is designed for purists who won't want any form of BM or room correction.

This 10db thing not only affects analog audio in/outs, but HDMI PCM audio as well. In early days of HDMI player and HDMI AVRs, there are many problems regarding who is suppose to add 10db boost to LFE in LPCM audio. If a player is decoding and output LPCM, it is still the responsibility of the player to boost .1 LFE channel by 10db and the AVR should not add additional 10db for LPCM audio. Players will only add 10db to LFE if it is getting bitstreamed audio. That's why I prefer bitstream all the time just to remove the uncertainty of how a player is designed to do.
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post #71 of 87
4/1/13 at 7:34pm
No, the LFE boost is not supposed to be done by the player but by the AVR. It's all explained in detail here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/748147/lfe-subwoofers-and-interconnects-explained

Also I understand the Oppo players lowers LFE by 15dB regardless of speaker settings, at least up to the 93/95 players. Dunno if that has since changed.
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post #72 of 87
4/1/13 at 8:12pm
A couple of points here.

First, with a stereo source, the player shouldn't be making any bass adjustments. LFE is designed to play 10dB louder than the full range channels and is recorded 10dB low, so that it won't exceed 105dB and clip during transmission. Since a stereo recording doesn't have LFE, none of that comes into play. The extra 5dB reduction happens when bass management is engaged in the player (although Oppos do the extra 5dB reduction of LFE even without bass management). So, I would think the Oppo output would be perfectly normal with a stereo source, but might have some reduction if bass management is engaged. You should be able to test that with a calibration disc and an SPL meter.

Second, the SW boost should not be done in the player. Doing so undermines the whole point of recording LFE 10dB low in the first place, preventing clipping during transmission when LFE exceeds 105dB. Add the gain in the processor or at the sub itself. All of this happens with digital transmission, too, but the software in the processor (not the player) handles the adjustments, making it transparent to the end user.

Sorry, Foxbat121, but your explanation of needing to add 10dB to the LFE channel in the player with PCM is simply not correct. The processor software does that, just like with bitstream. You are correct there was some confusion with DTS music discs and DSD in the early days. But, that is long since over. The post above that Killian.ca linked also mentions some AVRs from many years ago that did not do the required 10dB boost with PCM inputs. But, I have not heard of any processors released in the last half dozen years or so that have that design flaw.
Edited by BIslander - 4/1/13 at 8:43pm
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post #73 of 87
4/2/13 at 3:48am
Agreed that the "LFE" missing bass issue, with all its complexity, is a problem only with those SACD recordings that have intended actual content in the .1 ch. Stereo SACD layers are completely unaffected by the lack of proper 10dB boost to the .1 ch that occurs in some processors like the Denon A100/4311 and 4520, as carefully measured and documented by AustinJerry. With such recordings, sending DSD to be decoded in the processor is fine.

Also note that some MC recordings (3.0 for ex) often intentionally have zero content present in the .1 ch and playback of those discs also would be fine as well.

Of course what many folks here are rightly upset about is that when playing the discs with .1 content that is mixed and mastered properly assuming a10 dB boost will be applied to the .1 ch ch in the processor, we damn well expect that to happen!

Myself, I've hear an improvement in SQ when sending DSD rather than PCM from Oppo players to be decoded in Denon AVRs over the years. It is not huge and requires critical listening to well-recorded material. It is not worth puny bass so if I had an Oppo I'd send PCM. Problem is, now I have a Denon player and hear even more improvemnent when sending that DSD via DenonLink, and the player has crippled PCM output from SACD. So I have a work-around by boosting the subs a bit for most MC SACD, to make up for the 10 dB loss on the .1 ch.

We'd very much like a FW fix for the affected processors, as has apparently been provided by Denon for the AVP-A1. I sent another complaint last month to Denon pointing out that they fixed the problem for the AVP-A1 so the rest of us high-end Denon AVR guys are expecting a fix as well! I have received nothing but an automated acknowledgement from them.
Edited by SoundofMind - 4/2/13 at 5:23am
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post #74 of 87
4/2/13 at 4:26am
Sorry about the confusion on PCM 10db part. My bad.

However, the last couple posts are about analog output of the player, not HDMI digital output. With multi-ch analog audio, the player is suppose to boost 10db on digital portion of .1 LFE then mix with re-directed bass from other channels due to BM and output. No processors should add any boost to sub channel in multi-ch analog input.

The question here is why when DSD setting on the player is used, the LFE feels low. It is probably a by product of a feature meant for HDMI only (it sends out DSD instead of PCM over HDMI) or a design flaw. Unless the player has circuitary designed to take DSD digital signal and directly convert to analog, there is nothing to be gained using DSD here. It will probably bypass all process include 10db .1 LFE boost and bass management. The result is you will loos bass level when you listen to discs with .1 channel and require full range speaks on all 5 channels.
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post #75 of 87
4/2/13 at 6:03am
Thread Starter 
Thanks to all for your very informative posts regarding LFE and DSD. It was very helpful for someone like myself who is seriously technically challenged wink.gif.

Bill
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post #76 of 87
4/2/13 at 7:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Sorry about the confusion on PCM 10db part. My bad.

However, the last couple posts are about analog output of the player, not HDMI digital output. With multi-ch analog audio, the player is suppose to boost 10db on digital portion of .1 LFE then mix with re-directed bass from other channels due to BM and output. No processors should add any boost to sub channel in multi-ch analog input.
Why do you believe the SW boost should be done in the player instead of the processor or at the sub itself when using MCH analog? I have been using analog since 2006 and in all my research, I have never seen that recommendation. In fact, Oppo specifically advises against it. Plus, why do so many processors have a setting whose sole purpose is boosting the analog subwoofer input? My Denon AVR-3805 has such a setting for the EXT. inputs that boosts the SW by 0, 5, 10, or 15dB.

To the best of my knowledge, players do not boost LFE by 10dB prior to mixing in redirected bass. Rather, they lower LFE by another 5dB and redirected bass by 15dB, putting them both at the same level, a level that provides the needed headroom during very loud passages.
Edited by BIslander - 4/2/13 at 7:42am
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post #77 of 87
4/2/13 at 8:01am
Because many AVR/Processors don't have such options to boost sub channel (I had one Panasonic digital receiver, two Pioneer AVRs, none of them have such options). Only select a few do. On the AVR that doesn't have this option, you can't just adjust subwoofer vol level because it will affect the playback of other digital audio that the AVR decodes and adds 10db to LFE.
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post #78 of 87
4/2/13 at 8:48am
So, just to be clear, your recommendation about the right way to do this is actually a work-around for processors that can't do it the right way. I guess you do what you have to do. However, in my experience helping others with this issue over the years, most processors actually do have a way to boost the analog SW without screwing up the digital calibration. Onkyos, for example, do the analog boost by default and offer the end user the option of reducing the SW output by 10dB for the external inputs. Many other AVRs allow for separate and independent level trims for analog and digital. So, you can either add the gain to the analog SW output in the processor or turn up the sub itself and attenuate the digital SW output by the same amount.

Regardless, the correct method is to leave the player outputs flat and do the level adjustments downstream. Players are not supposed "to boost 10db on digital portion of .1 LFE then mix with re-directed bass from other channels due to BM and output" as you posted. And I am not aware of any players that do that. Nor have I seen any players that offer the kind of analog SW boost that is available on many processors.

I agree that it is not possible to get this right for both digital and analog with some processors. In those cases, compromises have to be made, although simply adjusting the dial on the sub itself depending on the source may be the best way to go. Fortunately, this is becoming less and less of an issue now that most players and processors feature fully functional HDMI connections.
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post #79 of 87
4/2/13 at 9:07am
The problem is there was no industry standard way to do this on analog multi-ch connections. So, in early days of Universal players, I know Samsung player boosted its LFE by 10db (some say more than 10db). Pioneer players didn't. Denon players (IIRC) had the option to boost or not. Same goes for receivers/processors. Some brand does it. Some don't. There is no right way or wrong way per say.

But now a days, HDMI connection makes all this unnecessary. I will never use analog 7.1 audio connection anymore. I purchased an Elite DV-48 universal HDMI player just to end this kind of misery.
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post #80 of 87
4/2/13 at 9:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

There is no right way or wrong way per say.
Sorry, but I believe there is a right and wrong way to do it, per se, which is to do the boost in the processor or at the sub itself. Work-arounds are just that, although they are sometimes necessary.
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post #81 of 87
4/2/13 at 10:09am
Other manufacturers that implemented differently disagree with you. And poor customers don't get say in it but have to work around whatever way he/she can.
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post #82 of 87
4/2/13 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Other manufacturers that implemented differently disagree with you. And poor customers don't get say in it but have to work around whatever way he/she can.
Clearly, you aren't going to let this go. The fact that some manufacturers screwed this up in the early days does not mean the approach they took was correct. They just screwed up. Meanwhile, in all your posts you have yet to address the basic issue of why the boost should not be done in the player. The only reason I am continuing this discussion is that you went out of your way to "correct" others by insisting that the analog SW boost should be done in the player, not in the processor or at the sub itself. I believe that "correction" is wrong.
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post #83 of 87
4/2/13 at 11:15am
Ppl stay with their AVR or processors longer than players. So, it is players that need to adapt to whatever processors/AVRs they have. Not the other way around. As I mentioned, tuning subwoofer level is not an solution for most ppl because of the digital portion of the audio that requires you to tune sub vol up and down when you switch inputs. And when it comes to analog line outputs, lower the audio by 10db is the not necessary the best approach although it is preferred for digital outputs because you effective lowered S/N ratio in the line. Let's just leave it there.
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post #84 of 87
4/2/13 at 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Ppl stay with their AVR or processors longer than players. So, it is players that need to adapt to whatever processors/AVRs they have. Not the other way around. As I mentioned, tuning subwoofer level is not an solution for most ppl because of the digital portion of the audio that requires you to tune sub vol up and down when you switch inputs. And when it comes to analog line outputs, lower the audio by 10db is the not necessary the best approach although it is preferred for digital outputs because you effective lowered S/N ratio in the line. Let's just leave it there.
I do not agree with this post for reasons already explained, reasons that you choose to ignore. But, yes, let's leave it there.
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post #85 of 87
4/2/13 at 12:33pm
my denon AVP-A1HDCI has always had this problem, even after all their updated firmwares and what not, I even got the 3d upgrade and still continue to get less bass response from dsd. however the sound quality of dsd vs pcm is much better under a dsd setting, but the bass thing always foils me! why can't we get the best of both worlds!

someday.......
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post #86 of 87
4/3/13 at 3:04am
WOW! Didn't expect an argument over which is supposed to boost the sub.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/bass-management-and-lfe-channel-page-2
Quote:
8. Analog signals from a DVD-Audio or SACD player that are input to an AV controller through its multichannel analog inputs...

Furthermore, the digital-to-analog (D/A) converters on disc players' subwoofer outputs often do not have enough headroom to output bass at sufficiently high levels. The level of the subwoofer output is usually reduced by either 10dB (for a player without bass management) or 15dB (for a player with bass management), with the expectation that the signal will be boosted by the controller.

My old Denon 2900 has a filter option which boosts the sub to +5dB for DTS, +15dB for SACDs but with bass management disabled. By inference it applies -15dB to the sub by default. SACDs are generally 5.0 and without BM this boost does nothing which explains why when I used this setting it didn't damage anything.

This reinforces the point that the player's idiosyncratic behaviour does not make this a general rule or standard.

Maybe some Samsung models do something similar but I cannot find any sub boost options when looking at the manuals for the Samsung HD841 and HD960.
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post #87 of 87
4/3/13 at 4:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Maybe some Samsung models do something similar but I cannot find any sub boost options when looking at the manuals for the Samsung HD841 and HD960.

There isn't any option but just did it by default.
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