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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 36

post #1051 of 4520
11/21/12 at 7:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Microphone variation?

Do you mean microphone position? I doubt that a difference in position could account for the difference between 3.4' and 11'. If you are talking about the actual mic, the same mic was used on both calibrations.

No, sorry, I was speaking to the previous post. Since kimeraa said levels were changed I thought perhaps the mic or cable might have been bad. Reflections and such can cause all sorts of strange behavior (comb filtering, distance changes, etc.) but it's all speculation at this point.

In your case, I would call them close enough except I agree it is strange the sub distance was changed so much. Makes me wonder if there was a quiet change in the time window, or if maybe the display was incorrect for the second sub, or whatever.
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post #1052 of 4520
11/21/12 at 10:32am
I am leaning towards getting a 4520. Could a single 5 channel 200wpc amp be sufficient to drive an 11.3 system to reference level? I plan on using the amp for LCR and FW and will let the receiver handle the rest. Also, could Sub EQ HT help me calibrate 3 subs, or will I have to adjust the gains and the distances manually?

I currently have a Paradigm 7.3 speaker setup with an 11+ year old Onkyo TX-DS989 upgraded to Version 2. I have had 7 tweeters blow over the years and believe that it may be due to the receiver clipping. None of the other drivers were affected. I love listening at reference level.

Could I manage to clip the 4520's internal amp with only one external amp when listening at reference level, even if it was just driving the FH, S, and SB speakers?

Thanks for any help.
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post #1053 of 4520
11/21/12 at 10:38am
Bi-amping question:

If I ran Audyssey calibration with bi-amping the fronts, then switch to single amp feeding fronts, would there be any reason to re-run Audyssey?

It seeem like the same calibration results would hold whether bi-amped or not.

Thanks.
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post #1054 of 4520
11/21/12 at 10:43am
Adding/changing an amp can change the gain so I would expect you'll want to rerun.
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post #1055 of 4520
11/21/12 at 10:47am
RStide,

You have to re-run Audyssey whenever you change the amp assignments or speakers.

Audyssey determines the output processing applied to each amplifier channel individually. In one case one amp would be powering a woofer and another amp would be powering a tweeter (plus maybe midrange). Audyssey does not define filters below the 3db fall-off point, so the channel driving the upper-range speakers would not be attempting to do any equalization below about (e.g.) 1KHz. If you later connect that same amp channel to a full-range speaker, its lower frequencies wouldn't be equalized at all.
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post #1056 of 4520
11/21/12 at 11:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

RStide,
You have to re-run Audyssey whenever you change the amp assignments or speakers.
Audyssey determines the output processing applied to each amplifier channel individually. In one case one amp would be powering a woofer and another amp would be powering a tweeter (plus maybe midrange). Audyssey does not define filters below the 3db fall-off point, so the channel driving the upper-range speakers would not be attempting to do any equalization below about (e.g.) 1KHz. If you later connect that same amp channel to a full-range speaker, its lower frequencies wouldn't be equalized at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Adding/changing an amp can change the gain so I would expect you'll want to rerun.

Thanks. I guess I'lll just leave it bi-amped.
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post #1057 of 4520
11/21/12 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

I am leaning towards getting a 4520. Could a single 5 channel 200wpc amp be sufficient to drive an 11.3 system to reference level? I plan on using the amp for LCR and FW and will let the receiver handle the rest. Also, could Sub EQ HT help me calibrate 3 subs, or will I have to adjust the gains and the distances manually?
I currently have a Paradigm 7.3 speaker setup with an 11+ year old Onkyo TX-DS989 upgraded to Version 2. I have had 7 tweeters blow over the years and believe that it may be due to the receiver clipping. None of the other drivers were affected. I love listening at reference level.
Could I manage to clip the 4520's internal amp with only one external amp when listening at reference level, even if it was just driving the FH, S, and SB speakers?
Thanks for any help.

I don't own the 4520 but own the 4311. Your question does not include your room size or what set of Paradigms you own, therefore it is kind of hard to answer your question but here goes anyways. Assuming a normal size room with mid level Paradigms I would see little problem getting to reference levels with a single 5 channel 200watt amp running say, the fronts, wides, and surrounds. Assign the heights and rear surrounds. To the 4520. This sort of flys in the face of getting the heights to exactly match the other fronts but in my experience the heights are less significant than the surrounds in a full DSX configuration. Also, to me amps should not sffect sound much but supply smple power and power reserve. I must note, I have no experience with Neo X.

To blow 7 tweeters though does look like you may have clipped the amps in the past. That kind of speaker damage is unheard of to me. You must like it very, very, loud or have some unusually low efficiency speakers and play them well above the capacity of the speaker to produce. If you are running super cheap lowest grade Paradigms, all bets are off. paradigm generally makes quite good stuff but over the years occasionally strayed into some not great low end speakers. Pretty much all their lines are quality now though.
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post #1058 of 4520
11/21/12 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

I don't own the 4520 but own the 4311. Your question does not include your room size or what set of Paradigms you own, therefore it is kind of hard to answer your question but here goes anyways. Assuming a normal size room with mid level Paradigms I would see little problem getting to reference levels with a single 5 channel 200watt amp running say, the fronts, wides, and surrounds. Assign the heights and rear surrounds. To the 4520. This sort of flys in the face of getting the heights to exactly match the other fronts but in my experience the heights are less significant than the surrounds in a full DSX configuration. Also, to me amps should not sffect sound much but supply smple power and power reserve. I must note, I have no experience with Neo X.
To blow 7 tweeters though does look like you may have clipped the amps in the past. That kind of speaker damage is unheard of to me. You must like it very, very, loud or have some unusually low efficiency speakers and play them well above the capacity of the speaker to produce. If you are running super cheap lowest grade Paradigms, all bets are off. paradigm generally makes quite good stuff but over the years occasionally strayed into some not great low end speakers. Pretty much all their lines are quality now though.

Thanks for responding so promptly. Here is the information I posted about my system from a previous thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

I have a 7.3 Paradigm system with an Onkyo TX-DS989 receiver upgraded to Version 2. My speaker system consists of 2 Monitor 11 V.2 speakers for LR, 1 CC-370 V.2 for C, 4 ADP-370 V.2 for SR, SL, SBR, and SBL, and 3 PW-2200 V.1 subs. The sensitivity of the Monitor 11's is 94dB, the CC-370 is 90dB, and the ADP-370's is 85dB. All measurements are 2.83V/1m. The Ohm ratings are 8 Ohms nominal, but the Monitor 11's go down to 3.4, the CC-370 to 6.4, and the ADP-370 to 5.1. You can see more of the specs here on Page 4.

My Onkyo does 130wpc x 7. This is only a two channels driven rating. It is a THX Ultra2 receiver.

I currently listen to to my system at reference level and wish to continue to listen to it at this level.

My room is only about 16 x 15 x 7.

I think I need an amp because I blew two tweeters about six years ago and I blew at least one tweeter several weeks ago.
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post #1059 of 4520
11/21/12 at 12:00pm
Btw, the last time I blew tweeters I was watching the Saving Private Ryan DTS DVD. I only got up to the landing on the beach scene. Towards the end of the scene some tweeters were gone and the actors lost their voices. This scene really gives my system a work out.

I recently watched War of the Worlds on BD and Tron Legacy, also on BD, and I had no problems listening at reference level. No tweeters went out.
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post #1060 of 4520
11/21/12 at 12:20pm
I agree with Seattle. Are you sure it was amplifier clipping, or are you simply running the tweeters too loud?

Going to a 200 W/ch amp is less than 3 dB additional headroom so might not be enough to help if you are seriously over driving the AVR. I do not know what the 4520 puts out all channels driven, however. Note that THX certification requires the ability to drive 3.2-ohm loads.
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post #1061 of 4520
11/21/12 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

I agree with Seattle. Are you sure it was amplifier clipping, or are you simply running the tweeters too loud?
Going to a 200 W/ch amp is less than 3 dB additional headroom so might not be enough to help if you are seriously over driving the AVR. I do not know what the 4520 puts out all channels driven, however. Note that THX certification requires the ability to drive 3.2-ohm loads.

Is there a way to lower the tweeters, or to protect them? I needed 5 diaphragms, but ordered 10, and they should be arriving in a week, or two. The order time is too long for my particular diaphragms since my speakers are over 11 years old.

Is a lower volume the only option? Could an amp eliminate the problem?
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post #1062 of 4520
11/21/12 at 1:28pm
Blowing tweeters is a classic example of an overdriven amplifier.
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post #1063 of 4520
11/21/12 at 2:45pm
^^^

or an overdriven tweeter... wink.gif

i have never blown a tweeter because of an overdriven amplifier... sadly, i have blown my share by overloading them...

i would wager that the majority of blown tweeters aren't because the amplifier was overdriven...

edit: if he wants to listen at reference at his current listening position and he keeps blowing tweeters, he doesn't need "more amplification"... he needs more efficient speakers... the speakers he has are telling him something by blowing tweeters, and it's not that the amp is clipping...
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post #1064 of 4520
11/21/12 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

Is there a way to lower the tweeters, or to protect them? I needed 5 diaphragms, but ordered 10, and they should be arriving in a week, or two. The order time is too long for my particular diaphragms since my speakers are over 11 years old.
Is a lower volume the only option? Could an amp eliminate the problem?

If you want to utilize Audyssey EQ, I don't know how you can adjust certain high frequency tones to preserve the tweeters. You have a huge differential in L /R efficiencies vs the all but the center speaker and a rather big 5 db differces still in regards to the center. My system matches efficiency better with the L/R coming in at 90db and the center at 89 Db with the wides and most others at 87 DB 1w/1m. I think my center is actually less efficient than the manufacturer states. I have a feeling this is because my towers are ported and have slightly larger mid and bass driver than my center. I think I can tell sound levels uneq,d in my room at perhaps 2db or so, 9 Db is pretty big.

I am not an engineer but to get all your speakers sound balanced, I'm guessing you have some pretty interesting Audyssey EQ variance? Not sure if that is enough to cause the Onkyo to clip and blow a tweeter but I guess it could be. The receiver is throwing a lot more power at the inefficient speakers than your towers. A big separate amplifier will most certainly provide higher head room and therefore cleaner power for scenes like the "Saving Private Ryan" you mentioned but it could just as easily be you are just over driving the inefficient speakers. I am also guessing that these are the tweeters that have blown. If it's the towers----very weird. A center blowing I could get. Lots of movie mayhem to the center in action movies.

So, I guess my vague and uneducated answer is an external amp may stop the tweeter carnage but then again, maybe not. I personally rarely listen to reference movies in my near square 16 by 16 ish room with 11.2 all B&W system . I do use XPA series amps for all 11 speakers. I just have this gut feeling your problem may be more overdriving the speakers than amp issues but can't provide any quantifiable response to totally confirm. 7 tweeters is a lot of damage.
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post #1065 of 4520
11/21/12 at 2:58pm
Ignorant question: Does Audyssey allow non-pro users to tweak the top end, or is it fixed? No pre-defined curves that might drop the HF a bit?

I suppose you could fuse the tweeters while you are replacing them...
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post #1066 of 4520
11/21/12 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

If you want to utilize Audyssey EQ, I don't know how you can adjust certain high frequency tones to preserve the tweeters. You have a huge differential in L /R efficiencies vs the all but the center speaker and a rather big 5 db differces still in regards to the center. My system matches efficiency better with the L/R coming in at 90db and the center at 89 Db with the wides and most others at 87 DB 1w/1m. I think my center is actually less efficient than the manufacturer states. I have a feeling this is because my towers are ported and have slightly larger mid and bass driver than my center. I think I can tell sound levels uneq,d in my room at perhaps 2db or so, 9 Db is pretty big.
I am not an engineer but to get all your speakers sound balanced, I'm guessing you have some pretty interesting Audyssey EQ variance? Not sure if that is enough to cause the Onkyo to clip and blow a tweeter but I guess it could be. The receiver is throwing a lot more power at the inefficient speakers than your towers. A big separate amplifier will most certainly provide higher head room and therefore cleaner power for scenes like the "Saving Private Ryan" you mentioned but it could just as easily be you are just over driving the inefficient speakers. I am also guessing that these are the tweeters that have blown. If it's the towers----very weird. A center blowing I could get. Lots of movie mayhem to the center in action movies.
So, I guess my vague and uneducated answer is an external amp may stop the tweeter carnage but then again, maybe not. I personally rarely listen to reference movies in my near square 16 by 16 ish room with 11.2 all B&W system . I do use XPA series amps for all 11 speakers. I just have this gut feeling your problem may be more overdriving the speakers than amp issues but can't provide any quantifiable response to totally confirm. 7 tweeters is a lot of damage.

I blew 2 tweeters in the SL, 1 tweeter in the SBL, 1 tweeter in the SBR, and 1 tweeter in the C.

The first time I blew tweeters, several years ago, I blew 1 tweeter in the C and 1 tweeter in the main R. I forgot what I was watching when this occurred.
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post #1067 of 4520
11/21/12 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Ignorant question: Does Audyssey allow non-pro users to tweak the top end, or is it fixed? No pre-defined curves that might drop the HF a bit?
I suppose you could fuse the tweeters while you are replacing them...

I was told about putting light bulbs or capacitors on them. Could this help?
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post #1068 of 4520
11/21/12 at 3:08pm
@don...

not really... on the 4520, you can choose between audyssey and audyssey flat, with the "regular" audyssey target curve having more of a high frequency rolloff (ime/imo, the regular audyssey curve works best in my room, my speakers, etc.)...

with pro, you could roll them off more... but frankly, having to do that to avoid blowing tweeters would be indicative of a much larger issue...

'sperience + what partial evidence the op has presented really points to the speaker being overdriven... not the hf being clipped enough to blow the tweeter... i would think that the speaker would be exhibiting obvious signs of distress* well before the tweeter fried if the amplifier was being overdriven...

* another reason why more tweeters are blown because of being being overdriven, not clipped... because it sounds great, right up until the tweeter melts down... tongue.gif
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post #1069 of 4520
11/21/12 at 3:13pm
Light bulbs in series might help but fuses work better and add far less distortion. There are already series capacitors in the crossover to block LF from getting to the tweeters so I do not see how that would help. In this case the usual trick of adding series resistors will not help as Audyssey will compensate by raising the tweeter level and you'll be back where you started. There are also small in-line thermal breakers, or were, that you could use.

A lot of the solution depends upon the root cause of the problem, too much power or amp clipping, and I do not know the answer to that. If you are simply over driving the tweeters, then a bigger help will hurt, not help. If you are clipping, it might take much more power to overcome that problem. In the 60's and 70's when receivers often had only 25 - 50 W/channel (despite the 1 kW "peak instantaneous dynamic power" ratings wink.gif ), and speakers were by and large less efficient than today, clipping was more a problem than at present, at least IMO.
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post #1070 of 4520
11/21/12 at 3:17pm
@Chris -- Thanks, I was pretty sure that was the case but there's always hope. Agree with your post (natch).
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post #1071 of 4520
11/21/12 at 3:49pm
Also @Chris.

Audyssey Pro, I sort of guessed he did not have an Audyssey pro unit. Different Audyssey curves, I didn't really consider due to the fact it will only change some frequency settings; not targeted to tweeter survival. Also, didn't think of it (my bad) So, I think our advice is pretty much the same. I am more a fan of seperate amplifiers than you though and do believe that ample reserve power provided cleanly to a speaker might cause a tweeter to not blow as easily as a somewhat underpowered AVR amp section that is probably clipping. Really it has to take a lot of effort to play that set of inefficient speakers at reference with clean power from an AVR/Any AVR. In this case, I believe it seems the speakers are simply being overdriven. (Also see below regarding dipole miss by me).

Perhaps to the original poster, it might be time to not buy a new amp but rather get speakers that are far more efficient. 85db/1W/1M is pretty inefficient and therefore hard to drive to reference level on a bombastic, over the top action film. I am a huge fan of high quality speakers first, last and mostly everything in between. OK, great EQ technology is a must as well.

The ADP 370's also look to be dipoles. In an 11.3 configuration and a medium size room, perhaps the OP has an excuse to upgrade. You could get all standard speakers and point the tweeters right at your head; calibrate the heck out of your AVR and get reference highs targetted right at your brain. Always glad to spend others money.....wink.gif
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post #1072 of 4520
11/21/12 at 6:45pm
Hi Folks,

Am shopping for a new receiver. Am replacing a venerable Pioneer Elite VSX-95 that I bought around 1992 or so smile.gif

I have a high end media room and a family room with home theater setups. Today, I'm focused on upgrading my family room syste. It is presently a 5.1 surround system, but I'll change this in the future. Key features of interest are video streaming over local network and over internet, support for the latest connectivity standards (HDMI w/ARC, 3D, Deep Color, etc), ability to reassign amplifiers so I can bi-amp my front left/right (and center ?) speakers in all audio modes (surround modes, stereo direct mode, etc).

The existing speaker configuration has Emotiva ERM-6.3's for left, center, right front speakers, an SVS PB12-NSD subwoofer, and Paradigm dipole ADP-190 v.6 rear surround speakers. The Emotiva's are 4ohm speakers but are relatively easy to drive (the old Pioneer VSX-95 can make your ears bleed using the Emotiva's at 35% of full scale volume). I will be using this system in a L shaped "great room (living room, breakfast nook, kitchen)" with about 8000 cu ft of space so I need higher output capability.

I have evaluated Onkyo NR5010, AVR-1520CI, Pioneer Elite SC-68, and the Yamaha RX-A3020. I have eliminated the Yamaha from consideration (too many gee whiz useless DSP modes) and the Pioneer as well (Even though all of my current receivers are Pioneer Elites, I'm not impressed with the nest model's build quality, the GUI, and the class D amps).

That leaves the NR5010 and the AVR-1520CI. They both have acceptable audio and video quality.

So, I have three questions:

1. I have heard both Onkyo and Denon have had quality problems over the last few years. Is this still an issue ? If so, why ? If not, why not ? On what basis do you provide your answer (experience working in A/V store, consumer big box store, experience with a zillion forum posts, etc)?
2. Which receiver would you recommend and why ? I'm especially interested in hearing from anyone that has owned both, or has had significant face time with each of them (want unbiased views if possible, please hold back on any "fan-boy" responses biggrin.gif)
2. Assuming I go with the AVR-1520CI, where can I get the best deal (and maintain full factory warranty) ? If the answer is "Mike @ AVS", how can I reach Mike ?

Thanks in advance
.
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post #1073 of 4520
11/21/12 at 8:31pm
@scbartling

JoeRod reviewed the Denon AVR-4520CI and you can read it here. He also did a comparison between the 4520 and the Onkyo TX-NR5010 in that review. JoeRod prefers the Denon, but he said that it is very close.

You can get the best deals by calling the different dealers, instead of going with the prices posted at their websites. I will PM you the prices I got from a call I made to OneCall today for both the 4520 and the 5010.
Edited by TazExprez - 11/21/12 at 8:42pm
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post #1074 of 4520
11/21/12 at 8:40pm
Thanks for all of your help guys.

I really want to upgrade my receiver, so I guess I will have to listen at a lower volume, until I get new surround speakers. Their inefficiency seems to be the reason why my tweeters are blowing. I will probably get the 4520 with an amp for the LCR and FW speakers.
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post #1075 of 4520
11/22/12 at 5:42am
Has any noted any changes to the menus or otherwise after the firmware update this week? (besides accidentally reverting to an older setup).

Pandora did not ask me to sign on again after the restart, but Spotify did ask for email and password again, but other that that, did not notice anything.

Just curious.
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post #1076 of 4520
11/22/12 at 6:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachy View Post

Has any noted any changes to the menus or otherwise after the firmware update this week? (besides accidentally reverting to an older setup).
Pandora did not ask me to sign on again after the restart, but Spotify did ask for email and password again, but other that that, did not notice anything.
Just curious.

I noticed nothing different. There was also no mention of menu changes in the description of the FW update.
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post #1077 of 4520
11/22/12 at 6:13am
What description are you referring to? Do they usually tell you in the update if there are and additions or changes to the menus?
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post #1078 of 4520
11/22/12 at 6:19am
Thanks to TazExprez for his responses and PM messages. Anyone else want to take a crack at this ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

Hi Folks,
Am shopping for a new receiver. Am replacing a venerable Pioneer Elite VSX-95 that I bought around 1992 or so smile.gif
I have a high end media room and a family room with home theater setups. Today, I'm focused on upgrading my family room syste. It is presently a 5.1 surround system, but I'll change this in the future. Key features of interest are video streaming over local network and over internet, support for the latest connectivity standards (HDMI w/ARC, 3D, Deep Color, etc), ability to reassign amplifiers so I can bi-amp my front left/right (and center ?) speakers in all audio modes (surround modes, stereo direct mode, etc).
The existing speaker configuration has Emotiva ERM-6.3's for left, center, right front speakers, an SVS PB12-NSD subwoofer, and Paradigm dipole ADP-190 v.6 rear surround speakers. The Emotiva's are 4ohm speakers but are relatively easy to drive (the old Pioneer VSX-95 can make your ears bleed using the Emotiva's at 35% of full scale volume). I will be using this system in a L shaped "great room (living room, breakfast nook, kitchen)" with about 8000 cu ft of space so I need higher output capability.
I have evaluated Onkyo NR5010, AVR-1520CI, Pioneer Elite SC-68, and the Yamaha RX-A3020. I have eliminated the Yamaha from consideration (too many gee whiz useless DSP modes) and the Pioneer as well (Even though all of my current receivers are Pioneer Elites, I'm not impressed with the nest model's build quality, the GUI, and the class D amps).
That leaves the NR5010 and the AVR-1520CI. They both have acceptable audio and video quality.
So, I have three questions:
1. I have heard both Onkyo and Denon have had quality problems over the last few years. Is this still an issue ? If so, why ? If not, why not ? On what basis do you provide your answer (experience working in A/V store, consumer big box store, experience with a zillion forum posts, etc)?
2. Which receiver would you recommend and why ? I'm especially interested in hearing from anyone that has owned both, or has had significant face time with each of them (want unbiased views if possible, please hold back on any "fan-boy" responses biggrin.gif)
2. Assuming I go with the AVR-1520CI, where can I get the best deal (and maintain full factory warranty) ? If the answer is "Mike @ AVS", how can I reach Mike ?
Thanks in advance
.
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post #1079 of 4520
11/22/12 at 6:46am
Interesting take on the chipset in the 4520:
http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=124026.msg851715#msg851715
Quote:
The 4520 deploys 3 AD ADSP-21487 clocked at 400MHZ. One of which is dedicated for the Denon proprietary upsampling algorithm, Advanced AL32 Processing Multi Channel, while the older 4311 uses 2 for decoder, and post/audyssey processing and AL24 multi-channel.Denon claims that the advantages of AL32 multi-channel are distortion-free sonic details, accurate sound localization, and rich low range.
And coupled with TI's top range PCM1795 32-Bit, 192-kHz Sampling, Advanced Segment, Stereo Audio DAC with 123 db dynamic range as compared with the older Ak4358 8 channel DAC, the xtalk is significantly lower.Probably , thats why you are hearing some improvements over the 4311.

I sold off the Pioneer LX85 in favor of the 3313 player/4520 amp combo , and i have not regretted my decision since, smile.gif

(PS:Its nice to see the little blue Denon link HD LED being lighted up once again!)
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post #1080 of 4520
11/22/12 at 7:53am
Question on the Quick Select and Media Server selection. My quick select for number 1 changes the unit to internet radio and starts playing a predefined station. All well and good. What I would like for quick select number 2 is to change to my media server to and list the albums for further selection. Seems like the quick selection will only work when playing a specific album.

Has anyone found a way around this problem. Trying to make it as easy for the wife to use fo play her cd's off the NAS vs finding the disk and playing on the cd player.
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