The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 37

If the 4311 and the 4520 had the same sound in my theater I would have kept the 4311. Just saying. Not that I didn't like the 4311 I just have been blown away with the 4520. Oh the DTS Neo:X also helps...

I am looking forward to hearing my family and friends opinions on the sound today with the games and tonight with movies.

receiving an unbiased opinion in a Denon 4520 thread is going to be a challenge

I am sure you can post in the Onkyo 5010 thread and receive the opposite responses you get here

IMO....either is a very good piece. To say one is much better ..sound quality wise...is probably splitting hairs at best

More of it will come down to feature set ,ergonomics and just its"looks"

I have( or had) a mix of similar units to the ones that you mentioned. They all have merit and I cant say...sound quality wise.. that I see anything but "nuance" from competing brands models

A few points I will make in general

I only listen to discrete channels( in straight or through mode etc)...so an upteen amount of DSP modes are not worth anything to me at all

The Onkyo is probably going to have a lower street price than the Denon...they typically do
I have owned several Onkyos and all but one of the preamps have given me issues. Two units have been replaced by Onkyo
I have had issues with both a Denon 4308 and 4310. Denon took the 4308 back and I sold the 4310

I consider the Yamaha A3000( perhaps it sounds similar to A3020?) to be VERY musical and neutral. But it lacks in power and I would not use it to run full range speakers...
The Pioneer Elite..SC-37 is a great theater piece...but not for critical 2 channel music. I have never listed to the new SC68. Both the Yamaha's and Pioneer brands have been more reliable in my years and using several different models of each

The Onkyos....well the 5009 is a great sounding/looking piece. Not sure how is compares to the 5010 other than the lack of 11.2


I suggest buying the extended service plan especially if you buy an Onkyo...but might be money well invested anyway



Warren
Edited by turnne1 - 11/22/12 at 9:08am

Thanks for taking the time to respond Warren.

I have only purchased an extended warranty once in my rather long life (and yes, I do have a house full of electronics and computers ) for three reasons. 1. Properly designed electronic gear will either display early mortality or will last indefinitely (barring mechanical wearout of switches, knobs, relays, buttons, etc). 2. It's pure profit for the extended warranty vendor for the most part (see reason #1). I am a Electrical Engineer and I design VLSI chips for a living and for commercial products we design them for continuous operation for 10year lifespan at 85C ambient temperature without degradation beyond the rated specs. In real life with intermittent use, they will last forever. 3. If a company has a history of being unable to properly design products (for commercial longevity), then I usually steer clear of them.

Within a $2500 budget, what would be the most reliable AV receiver capable of driving 4 ohm speakers with the usual crop of recent features (HDMI 1.4a or later, 32 bit XT32 dynamic equalization (or equivalent), 4K passthrough, streaming media support, etc, etc).

- Steven

Can somebody help me with this one, please? I use my 4520 for stereo and multichannel music strictly analog, through analog in or ext. in, both in direct or pure direct mode. This means no bass management or Audessey, but I am not sure about distances (timing) and channel levels.
On my 4308 I could at least change all levels to 0dB but on the current model this is no longer possible for multichannel playback through external in. I know for 2 channel playback it is possible to set that through the web interface, as long as this is grayed out on screen. I have distances and channel levels also set on my Oppo 95 (used for multichannel audio), but now I am afraid I am doing this twice. Luckily only my center has a really different volume set by Auddesey (about 4dB), the rest stays within a 0.5 to 1 dB difference.

So, is the 4520 acting as a pure power amp in this setup, or is volume still set relatively on a per channel basis? Any help would be appreciated.

 

Post #4 in this thread has a list of changes for each FW update, courtesy of JDSmoothie.  Does Denon always describe every change in its release notes?  Don't know.

"properly designed electronic gear"...an interesting place to tee up my comments

I personally am in a positive $$ position in regard to extended warranty purchases....cash I paid vs warranty claims. Maybe it is the mix of products I have owned..between the Onkyo HDMI boards and the Samsung plasma TV power supply( and some assorted boards)...and then the eventual Samsung TV replacement with a newer 8000 series model..... By all measurements I think the extended warranties have left me in a good position

You might want to read through some of the older threads ..of the prior models you are considering. Their predecessors had some issues. I am not sure of the failure rate I know people are more likely to post comments about a bad experience than they are a good one
Generally..someone correct me if I am wrong..The denon products were still under warranty when issues arose...I am thinking of some networking issues I had a prior Denon unit. Denon also has a 3 year warranty. Many credit cards these days double the manufacturer warranty up to one year. a total of 4 years if you buy the denon. I have used this feature many times and also purchased protection through the CC company which is often less than the retailers charge
The Onkyos on the other hand have had some HDMI board issues...some day due to heat...that many times dont rear them selves until shortly after the 2 year warranty is up. The cost is about $800-900 to fix as the HDMI contains some of the DSP chips as well
So..needless to say many have a "brick" on their hands. if you look at some of the Onkyo XX08 threads some are starting to have that issue

I have had this issue on two different Onkyo's..one fixed under warranty...one unit fully replaced with a new unit... a 5009

Onkyo's..generally speaking...have been powerhouses. However I think recently they have put limiters in their units as well as the ACD tests are not what they were 3-4 years ago
I have not run the 5009 with full range speakers at reference levels...so I cant speak to my opinion of seat of the pants capability. I will tell you that I did an in house test a few ears ago with some highly inefficient Vienna Acoustics speakers and it made a Denon 4310 shut down while the Onkyo 875 handled them...though it did get VERY hot in the process

I run separates in my main listening area and have for many years. I have a multichannel amp and have changed pre/pros over the years as feature sets and needs changed. I currently have an Onkyo 5508 serving that room

I use the AVR's in secondary areas typically running bookshelf speakers.So its typically about detailed sound quality and features than trying run at reference levels. hence the reason I stated earlier the Yamaha A3000 is a nice piece. It replaced an Onkyo 875. The Onkyo was more dynamic, the Yamaha more detailed and clearer. if I was running full range speakers I would have stayed with the Onkyo. In my master bedroom application the Yamaha suits my tastes better

At this point...IMO...either the Denon or Onkyo will serve you well. I still say any sound quality difference is a hair splitting exercise. The Onkyo "might " be more powerful and less expensive...the Denon "might " be more reliable
This comes from what I have seen historically and may not be the case with these specific models

I will tell you that the Onkyo 5009 I have( a replacement from Onkyo for a failed 905) is stellar running Mirage Omnipolar speakers in my office

Not sure where the street prices are on these...I have seen the Denon maybe $50.00 less than MSRP at Magnolia. I have no idea what the 5010 is selling for. If there is a Fry's near you and they have any left..they are selling their remaining 5009's at about 1/3 of retail. They dont have the 3010/5010 in stock yet locally

But anyway

Buy either one and enjoy....I cant imagine you will be disappointed with either unit


Warren

First, are there any remote codes for Harmony One for Status button on front of 4520?

Also, when hitting that status button on the front, and I am listening to my Tivo Pandora, which is 128 k, it says:

sig: PCM

fs: 48 khz.

Are these different rates? the 48 khz and the 128 k?

I am using optical digital input for audio from my cable box

Not QuickSelect but an option I use often...

Do you have a Windows PC around that she (the wife) can access? If yes, add the music on the NAS to Windows Media Player library, show her how to create a play list and use the "play to" function to send it to the AVR. Works beautifully with both my 3311 and 4520.

In fact, if you go to the www interface of the AVR with a web browser and click on the zone / network, the www interface actually updates as the play list is played, showing album, artist, etc...

This might be an option too as I find it easier to access network based media with this interface than the on screen one. Just as limited tho, no way to create play lists.

I suspect AirPlay will do much the same for you. I'm just not a big apple fan and dislike itunes so media player does it for me.

To me, this is the easiest way to cue a selection of music to play. Simple, visual and quick. Easier than trying to browse thru hundreds of albums and thousands of songs directly at the receiver, picking one at a time.

None of the local Fry's here in Dallas have any NR5009's in stock, so that's not an option.

Due to my long and positive experience with Pioneer Elite receivers in terms of sound quality and overall reliability, I'll have to go backwards in my decision process and add the SC-68 back into contention, but it's tough to find these below MSRP and still have a factory warranty

- Steven

I think 128 on Pandora refers to the bit rate or 128kbps similar to how MP3s rate their bitrate.

But the sample rate used is 48kHz

Hey Guys,

Just a quick one... I am trying to not just buy the 4520 because I currently have a Denon but my system needs a touch of an upgrade due to new tech and my 3D setup not being properly processed through the 4310.

I am looking at maybe the Onkyo TX-NR5010 or a Pioneer Elite SC-68 to compare against the 4520. At the moment from what I can see the Onkyo seems to be edging out the 4520 and the SC-68 is awaiting an update to a '13 model. Any comments?

Cheers

PS. Sorry did not read that last few pages of posts...

Thanks, I knew that, think all this turkey must have clouded my mind.

Hi rchwallace,

Some points on each receiver (not complete by any stretch). All of these will sound just as good, so it's features/quality/reliability that matter:

SC-68
1. THX Ultra2 Plus certified (yes, it does mean something)
2. Menu's have a reputation of being byzantine/hard to use
3. 3rd generation class D amplifiers (runs cool, lot's of dynamic range, this is a plus)
4. 2K and 4K pass through
5. Pioneer has a reputation for quality/durability/reliability
6. Capable of driving 4 ohm speakers easily
7. Pioneer in-house custom auto-equalization system w/o subwoofer compensation
- Some folks consider Pioneers custom system a plus, others think it is a minus
8. Very gimmicky android/iphone app
9. Airplay support
10. Probably the best overall video processing

NR5010
1. THX Ultra2 Plus certified
2. Easy to use menu system
3. Audessey 32 bit auto-equalization w/subwoofer compensation
4. "Home Media" = ability to mount any windows hard drive and access it directly
- bypasses DLNA, so you can load mp3's, DSD, FLAC, etc directly without the meta data tags needed by DLNA
- It essentially is a linux samba server running on the NR5010
- This is a major plus in my book, much simpler to set up home media server this way
5. Push-Pull Darlington amps are proven design, but are less efficient.
- For each output watt into the speakers, it pulls more current from the 110V supply.
- They also are capable of sourcing/sinking current quickly (= wide dynamic range)
6. Rated for 4 ohm speakers
7. Spotty quality/reliability record (historically the last 3 - 4 years)
8. No option to pass through 4K signals
9. 2 year warranty
10. No main zone 12 triggers (zone's 2 and 3 only)
11. Amps are not fully re-assignable, only some fixed configuration options are available
12. No Airplay support
13. Second best video processing

AVR-4520CI
1. Not THX certified (the absence of certification isn't meaningful, but the presence of certification is)
2. Better reputation for reliability/quality than Onkyo, but not as good as Pioneer
3. 4K pass through support
4. Three year warranty
5. Completely remappable amp assignments
6. More energy efficient amplifier circuits than Onkyo, but no where near as efficient as the Pioneer amps
7. Reputation for cutting out when driving difficult low impedance loads
8. Probably the best user community (lots of high tech fans)
9. Airplay support
10. Video processing is of high quality, but not as good as the Pioneer and Onkyo

Some of this is my opinion. Don't bother bringing out the flamethrowers, I'm wearing asbestos underwear

^ Can you explain what you mean by this, and why it is important?

 

"Not THX certified (the absence of certification isn't meaningful, but the presence of certification is)"

Hi AustinJerry,

Would be happy to clarify.

If a receiver passes the THX testing and certification process, it does guarantee the standards have been met and the receiver has the capability producing the expected level of sound pressure at the required distortion levels of the specific standard under the required testing conditions.

If a manufacturer chooses not to submit a receiver for standards testing, it doesn't say anything about the receiver other than the manufacturer did pay for certification and probably did not want to pay the license fee/royalties to use the THX certification/logo's. It doesn't prove anything one way or another with respect to the receiver spec's. The receiver might or might not have the capability of meeting the standard.

Make sense ?

- Steven

Let's try this again with the typo's fixed.

Hi AustinJerry,

Would be happy to clarify.

If a receiver passes the THX testing and certification process, it does guarantee the standards have been met and the receiver has the capability of producing the expected level of sound pressure at the required distortion levels of the specific standard under the required testing conditions.

If a manufacturer chooses not to submit a receiver for standards testing, it doesn't say anything about the receiver other than the manufacturer did not pay for certification and probably did not want to pay the license fee/royalties to use the THX certification/logo's. It doesn't prove anything one way or another with respect to the receiver spec's. The receiver might or might not have the capability of meeting the standard.

Make sense ?

- Steven

So what I'm trying to say is that THX Ultra 2 Plus certification for the SC-68 and NR5010 is a plus for those receivers, but the absence of certification on the AVR-4520CI doesn't really say anything about the receiver other than it's not certified.

I'll leave it to individuals to decide if the absence of certification on the AVR-4520CI is either neutral (don't care) or a negative with respect to comparing these three receivers.

Since I personally have to fill an 8000 to 9000 cu ft room, knowing that a receiver is certified to drive reference sound levels into at least a 3000 cu ft room helps to indicate which receivers might have a prayer of handling my family+breakfast_nook+kitchen "great room" volume at more reasonable listening levels.

- Steven

If I needed enough power to fill a big room, I'd use a decent quality external power amp and run a Pre/pro or an AVR with Pre outs. Emotivas are cheap enough and even if they may not outperform the ICE modules, it won't be worse off. Take the amps out of the equation and then choose the specs that matter to you. In my case: SubEQ and 11 channels and XT32.

Ps I recall reading the new Pioneers don't seem to use the same quality of Class D modules as the old ICE ones. The older gens could run at their full specs with all 9 channels running. The new ones drop off a lot more. There was a rumor that Pioneer has dropped the use of ICE but not verified. But then Pioneer has never stated their old models were ICE based even if they were.

Woof Woof, I hear you but it comes down to budgets though. On the other hand, I think Emotiva has their 7 channel amp on sale for $1600. If I got an AVR-4311/NR3010/SC-67 on sale for say $1000 - $1300 dollars, the combination of the two might work out well. I'll check out the various spec's and see if that might be an option.

Do you guys have any thoughts as to how I could stay close to $2500 total budget and put together a combination of external amp with receiver for switching/processing/pre-amp.

My care-abouts are:
- quality and reliability,
- good sound reproduction (that goes without saying),
- ability to fill a large room with sound (8000+ cu ft) = high current drive capability
- 4 ohm speaker support (for my Emotive ERM-6.3's)
- XT32 (or equivalent capability),
- SubEQ,
- 4K passthrough,
- at least 5.1 capability (preferably 7.1),
- ease of use in terms of the GUI,
- Airplay support is a plus but not required,
- internet streaming video/audio support (with wide format support)
- Mobile phone support (MHL ?), especially android

There are probably more features I care about, but this is a long enough list for now.

Changing subjects to the Pioneer Class D topic: Pioneer claims that they have been using more and more advanced power transistors as time progresses, allowing them to reduce the amount of negative feedback over time. The side effect has been a reduction in total current drive, but a reduction in the amount of analog signal conditioning that must be added for proper circuit operation.

- Steven

The XPA-5 5 channel amp is on sale for $769 instead of $899. Output power is 200W into 8ohms and 300W into 4 ohms (all channels driven). Amplifier topology is similar to Onkyo's = push pull darlington (class A/B)

The XPR-5 5 channel amp is on sale for $1699 instead of $1999. Output power is 400W into 8 ohms, 600W into 4 ohms.(all channels driven). Same amp topology as XPA-5.

The XPR-5 would require it's own dedicated 20 amp electrical circuit and it's probably overkill for me.

So if I start with the XPA-5 at $769 and tried to keep the total $ under $2500, that would leave approx $1750 available for the receiver. The Denon AVR-4520CI might be a good fit for the XPA-5 since I can power down the unused external amp stages (I think ... can someone that owns one of these please confirm it ?) assuming I can find someone willing to sell me one for $1750 or so (that's might be pretty aggressive for a unit with MSRP = $2499).

Do you see any problems with this combination ? I think someone mentioned that attenuators on the Emotive amps are sometimes needed to get Audessey to behave due to the amp's high gain. I'll have to figure out how to handle the 75lbs weight of the XPA-5 as my shelves will not handle that without additional support.

Can anyone suggest other options I should consider ?

- Steven

You could probably get an AVR-4311CI for about $1300.00 and an Emotiva XPA-5 for $769.00. That leaves you with about $400.00 left over.

Just looked at the Emotiva pre-amp/processors. They are accepting pre-orders for the XMC-1 (see link below) for $1499.

If I pair up the XMC-1 with the XPA-5, a good blu-ray player and a TV with good video processing capability (I have ordered the Samsung Plasma PN51D8000 for my family room), I will fit in my budget. But, I can't quite figure out what the streaming internet video support might/might not be. It does indicate that only two channel internet audio is supported. I don't that that will meet the requirements for streaming netflix/blockbuster, etc. What other options can you think of ?

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/xmc1

- Steven

TazExprez,

Sounds like a reasonable suggestion.

Does it support the ability to disable the output amplifiers ?

I'll take a much closer look at the 4311 spec tomorrow morning. It's time to call it a night.

Yes, you can use it in Pre-Amp only mode and disable all of the internal amps.

Guys this is the 4520 thread, let's keep discussion on that.

Not how to fulfill your personal ht/sound needs, start a separate thread for that.

The Fry's on Executive Drive...near LBJ and Garland Rd( not far from White Rock Lake) shows inventory
BTW they have lowered their online price a couple of hundred dollars in the last 2 weeks...though the instore price was lower than the old or new online pricing

The last 5009 I saw was almost exactly 1/3 of retail in a Frys store...though surprisingly the 3009 was only like $125 less than the 5009...when their MSRP's are I think about $700 apart

The Pioneer Elite is a good choice...I had an SC 07( sold) and currently have an SC37...both solid units for HT. IMO..as I said before the Yamaha still has it beat for critical 2 channel music listening

In terms of the actual transaction pricing for the Denon vs Pioneer Elite..I cant imagine they are that far apart are they?



Warren

every product specific thread I have seen on this forum always has many who come in and ask for advice on what they should buy

unless there is a thread solely committed to actual owners of the product who can only post technical questions about set up..etc.....I am sure nothing will change about typical questions/discussions from thread to thread




Warren

many here will you there is a significant sound quality difference in the 4311 vs 4520....for the record I have not owned( or demoed) either one

But..I seen several posts here that suggest "night and day" difference




Warren

I agree. Having a copy of your configuration is always good advice. I made sure I had a valid configuration file before doing the FW update. I was fortunate, though, and had no problems with the update changing my settings.

if you are going that route

why dont you just buy a dedicated preamp?

The Emotiva will give you more "bang" than the receivers you mentioned

Buy a /refurb Onkyo 5508 preamp and a separate amp and sit back and be happy

I would bet you are happier with the sound of that than any of the receivers( standing alone) that you mentioned

Your requirements for that size room...even at reference levels of sound all day long with 4 ohm speakers...would be met all day long



Warren