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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 39

post #1141 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

In my struggle to find a good reason to upgrade from my 4311 to a 4520, I've stumbled on another cool feature, which is DTS Neo:x 11-channel music mode.
I have a large collection of music concerts and I often like to listen to them with Audyssey DSX 11-channels. DSX gives the impression that you are in a huge room, with artificial reflections coming from the wide and height speakers. The "sound envelopment" is pretty severe and you feel literally surrounded by the music. I find this very good for opera, orchestra and some types of broadway productions (such as Phantom of the Opera).
DTS Neo:x 11-channel music is more front-centric so it sounds like you are in a smaller room, maybe a jazz bar, instead of a grand opera house. For a lot of jazz and pop concerts, I like it a lot better than DSX.
I haven't experimented with movies yet. That would be my next experiment.
Has anyone experienced something similar with DTS Neo vs. Audyssey DSX?
Mark

Hi Mark,

I decided to offer my opinion regarding the various choices on the 4520 for listening to music. I was listening to Tift Merritt's Buckingham Solution (Live) 2ch recording (very clean and acoustic, with vocals, piano or guitar accompaniment, and audience sounds). One nice thing about holding down the Music key on the 4520 is that you can cycle through the various modes, getting a quick snippet of how the music sounds in each mode. Unfortunately, it's not a very long snippet, but since audio memory is short as well, being able to quickly compare is actually quite revealing.

I listened to stereo, PLIIx Music, PLIIz, DSX (wides, heights, and wides+heights), and Neo:x. My impressions:

Stereo: incredibly center-focused and intimate (my LR speakers are exactly equidistant, so the stereo image is quite centered). Very little ambiance, no sense of being in a concert hall.

PLIIx Music: opens up the performance with a nice amount of ambiance. Vocals still dead center. Overall, very pleasing.

PLIIz: adds some recognizable height information, but seems to pinch the vocals into the center. Not my favorite mode.

DSX Wides: adds breadth and ambiance. Closer to a concert hall sound. Less intimate.

DSX Heights: best concert hall ambience, IMO. If I want more ambiance, this would be my preferred mode.

DSX Wides + Heights: too overwhelming. Sounds coming from the width and from the ceiling. Not natural sounding to me.

Neo:x: almost sounds like stereo to me, with vocals pinched into the center. IMO, little concert ambience. Quickly switching between stereo and Neo:x, I preferred stereo, and distinctly disliked the latter. Sorry to disappoint.

Conclusions: My first choice, and the default setting in my QuickSelect, is PLIIx Music (actually PLII Music, but I can't figure out how to toggle the rear surrounds off). Second choice would be either Stereo, or DSX Heights, depending on the type of music. I never use any of the other music modes. And by the way, for Multi-channel music, I prefer the unaltered Multi-channel In, with no DSX processing.
post #1142 of 7676
@ Seattle:

Nice to see you in here. Haven't seen many posts from you lately, at least in the threads I follow. Have you been on vacation? Or, God forbid, have you been sitting back, relaxing, and actually enjoying the HT?
post #1143 of 7676
Just popped the Expendables II into my 11 channel system...
The bass is very solid, surrounds all in action, but bear in mind it's not really 11 channel on this discs, it's matrixed.

There is no lights for DTS Neo - X...

It's a very cursory comparision, but IMO, I prefer Audyssey's flavor to DTS Neo-X. There is more side action with DTS Neo-X, but the enveloping experiences seems more with Audyssey and doesn't try to bring attention to individual speakers.
post #1144 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@steven...
i like these gls safe connect plugs... they cost a bit more than the monoprice ones that i used for years, but the insulated barrel and the "saw toothed" design of the wire connection make them worth it...
http://www.speakerrepair.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=safe_connect

The plugs at this link look identical to the GLS plugs and are 1/2 the price of the GLS plugs.

http://www.amazon.com/Sewell-Deadbolt-Banana-Fast-Lock-Technology/dp/B006U3O566/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353731282&sr=8-1&keywords=banana+plugs
post #1145 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

12. Front Display (Channel): Channel icons now only display on right side of front panel display with setting to show either INPUT or OUTPUT (default) channels (same as 3313CI)
.

How do you change from displaying OUTPUT channels (default) to displaying INPUT channels? Are there any easy ways to toggle between the two displaying modes? Thanks.
post #1146 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by macrophone View Post

How do you change from displaying OUTPUT channels (default) to displaying INPUT channels? Are there any easy ways to toggle between the two displaying modes? Thanks.

In the menu.
post #1147 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

@ Seattle:
Nice to see you in here. Haven't seen many posts from you lately, at least in the threads I follow. Have you been on vacation? Or, God forbid, have you been sitting back, relaxing, and actually enjoying the HT?

Yes, mostly enjoying the HT. frankly, the 4311 has been unbelievably stable. The only issue I had was the adopted cat ate the mic cable on me. Also, I have had pretty deep struggles with Ceton tuner cards and have gone radio silent to constantly react to a lack of stability on that front with not consistent success. WAF is not good here right now.

The 4520 and even more so, the Marantz 8801 have the upgrade twitchy finger gearing up. I just haven't desperately needed to be the first to buy either. So, I am back in the thread trying to learn. Very much appreciate your comments about sound EQ/room options. As far as I can surmise so far, the 4520 appears to be a great AVR but I am struggling to determine if either new unit is going to blow me away. It appears probably not.

I am going to reduce my external amplifiers as soon as I brave a stack total rebuild. I admittedly got a bit carried away. In addition, with all of Batpigs great advice and others on the 4311 thread, I can't possibly think of a question that hasn't been answered 30 times over.

Finally, what I need is some good economic markets. The misses and I have been thinking about adding a wetbar and back pool room/poker room plus raised seating for 3 more at the bar. It's just a bit out of the budget for now.

As I said though, reviews of sound processing is helpful to me especially from fairly experienced 4311 owners. Video processing is important but less so to me; i assume they will do this right and be competitive with any other good AVR. I respect the information from previous Denon owners and yes, even the occasional Onkyo fan.
post #1148 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

Thanks guys, in addition to your favorite banana plugs, what do you use to try and cool the AVR-4520CI ?
- Steven

I use Antec Component coolers. smile.gif
post #1149 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I use Antec Component coolers. smile.gif

How do you like them? Do they keep your equipment very cool, or slightly warm? How quiet are they?
post #1150 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

How do you like them? Do they keep your equipment very cool, or slightly warm? How quiet are they?

I use Antec Component cooler with my Denon AVR A100. Using the low setting I find my receiver still runs too hot in my BDI cabinet, so I always switch the cooler on high. I highly recommend the Antec cooler, if you can get past the noise of the fans, which you don't really hear when you fire up a movie or some decent music.
post #1151 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

How do you like them? Do they keep your equipment very cool, or slightly warm? How quiet are they?



Love them! Have been using them for a few years now. If you are standing inches from them you can hear them but absolutely no way during a movie or game. smile.gif
post #1152 of 7676
I came up with the following cooling solutions for my two home theater implementations (media room and family room).

Media room:

I have ~11/16's inch (17.46mm) clearance between my Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX and the glass shelf above it. So, I ordered the following low profile dual fan (17mm thick) rig from plus a fan speed controller (see links below). I wanted a fan speed controller since these are 2500 RPM fans and I'll likely need to slow them down to reduce the decibels to a reasonable level. This rig will work ok since the TV stand is open on all sides and I can exhaust the hot air to the sides.
dual fan cooler: http://www.buyextras.com/evavcoblfanf.html
12v fan speed controller : http://www.coolerguys.com/840556090236.html

For the family room, the equipment goes into an entertainment center that is built into the wall. The shelves to the right of the TV are enclosed on left, right, rear sides, with shelving limiting the room above each component. I need to exhaust the heat out the front. Everything that I put in this set of shelves gets absurdly hot and it's time to do something about it. For this setup, I will buy a programmable thermal control/power supply, Two 12v DC fan speed controllers, and 4 centrifugal fans. I don't think the speed controller will really be needed here since the fans are 1000 RPM and only produce 19.8 db(A), but the two fan controllers are cheap insurance in case I need to slow them down. I will place two fans on the AVR-4520 receiver and 1 fan behind my blu-ray player and 1 fan behind the dish network DVR. The thermal sensor will be placed on the receiver since that will burn the most watts and will turn on all 4 fans.

Power supply + thermal controller: http://www.coolerguys.com/cgdpsled.html
12v fan speed controller : http://www.coolerguys.com/840556090236.html (each controls 2 fans)
12v Fans: http://www.coolerguys.com/840556094272.html

Total price for the media room is about $25.
Total price for the family room is about $125

Cheap insurance for about $3500 worth of electronics.

- Steven
post #1153 of 7676
Can the 4520 bi-amp/wire the center channel in addition to the mains? Only intending to have a 5.2 system.
post #1154 of 7676
I expect the 4520 to arrive this week. Since it's going into a tight cabinet, I figured a little extra money spent on a fan would be good insurance, although I've never had a problem with the Denon 3805 that's jammed in the cabinet now.

I think a guy at Best Buy recommended Middle Atlantic Products, and I chose something called the Comp-Cool. It sits on top of the equipment, turns on @ 87F, off @ 85F, and moves 8 CFM @ 19 db. I just measured the 3805 @ 112F (at very moderate sound levels watching college football), so a fan is probably a good idea for the new unit.

http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/cooling/qcool.htm#compcool
post #1155 of 7676
Technically with the custom amp assign mode, you could have a 5.1/.2 system with bi-amped fronts and center plus two single amps surround channels and still have one amp left for a mono zone 2. I haven't tried but from the manual, it seems possible.
post #1156 of 7676
See page 183 of the manual for details about configuring the custom amp assign mode.
post #1157 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by scbartling View Post

Thanks guys, in addition to your favorite banana plugs, what do you use to try and cool the AVR-4520CI ?
- Steven


I was directed to Middle Atlantic Products by a guy at Best Buy. The 4520 should arrive this week, assuming AV Science gets stock delivered. It's going into a tight cabinet where I measured 112F on top of a Denon 3805, so I figured a fan would be money well spent for a little insurance.

I ordered a Comp-Cool. The spec says it turns on @ 87F, back off @ 85F, and move 8 CFM @ 19 db. It sounds like it should do exactly what I need it to do.

http://www.middleatlantic.com/rackac/cooling/qcool.htm#compcool
post #1158 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Hi Mark,
I decided to offer my opinion regarding the various choices on the 4520 for listening to music. I was listening to Tift Merritt's Buckingham Solution (Live) 2ch recording (very clean and acoustic, with vocals, piano or guitar accompaniment, and audience sounds). One nice thing about holding down the Music key on the 4520 is that you can cycle through the various modes, getting a quick snippet of how the music sounds in each mode. Unfortunately, it's not a very long snippet, but since audio memory is short as well, being able to quickly compare is actually quite revealing.
I listened to stereo, PLIIx Music, PLIIz, DSX (wides, heights, and wides+heights), and Neo:x. My impressions:
Stereo: incredibly center-focused and intimate (my LR speakers are exactly equidistant, so the stereo image is quite centered). Very little ambiance, no sense of being in a concert hall.
PLIIx Music: opens up the performance with a nice amount of ambiance. Vocals still dead center. Overall, very pleasing.
PLIIz: adds some recognizable height information, but seems to pinch the vocals into the center. Not my favorite mode.
DSX Wides: adds breadth and ambiance. Closer to a concert hall sound. Less intimate.
DSX Heights: best concert hall ambience, IMO. If I want more ambiance, this would be my preferred mode.
DSX Wides + Heights: too overwhelming. Sounds coming from the width and from the ceiling. Not natural sounding to me.
Neo:x: almost sounds like stereo to me, with vocals pinched into the center. IMO, little concert ambience. Quickly switching between stereo and Neo:x, I preferred stereo, and distinctly disliked the latter. Sorry to disappoint.
Conclusions: My first choice, and the default setting in my QuickSelect, is PLIIx Music (actually PLII Music, but I can't figure out how to toggle the rear surrounds off). Second choice would be either Stereo, or DSX Heights, depending on the type of music. I never use any of the other music modes. And by the way, for Multi-channel music, I prefer the unaltered Multi-channel In, with no DSX processing.

Hi Jerry,

I see that you are now approaching the "obsessive-compulsiveness" of @Sound of Mind in music. wink.gif No, really, I appreciate these types of observations. smile.gif

However, my previous comments on Neo:x were based on multi-channel source, not stereo converted to multi-channel. Let me continue to experiment with this new toy ...

Mark
post #1159 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Hi Jerry,
I see that you are now approaching the "obsessive-compulsiveness" of @Sound of Mind in music. wink.gif No, really, I appreciate these types of observations. smile.gif
However, my previous comments on Neo:x were based on multi-channel source, not stereo converted to multi-channel. Let me continue to experiment with this new toy ...
Mark

Oh, that is easy. I use DSX Fronts+Wides for any Dolby Digital or lossless MC format. It usually sounds great, except for the occasional crappy satellite broadcast, in which case I turn DSX off completely. I just haven't found any type of source that sounds better with Neo:x. YMMV, of course.
post #1160 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Oh, that is easy. I use DSX Fronts+Wides for any Dolby Digital or lossless MC format. It usually sounds great, except for the occasional crappy satellite broadcast, in which case I turn DSX off completely. I just haven't found any type of source that sounds better with Neo:x. YMMV, of course.

Do your observations for multi-channel include music concerts or just movies? I find that concerts are very different, probably because they often don't follow any standard.

Mark
post #1161 of 7676
re: cooling...

here's an interesting read in regards to thermal management...

http://middleatlantic.com/pdf/ThermalManagement.pdf

it's important to remember that air doesn't always move the way we "want" it to... smile.gif
post #1162 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Do your observations for multi-channel include music concerts or just movies? I find that concerts are very different, probably because they often don't follow any standard.
Mark

The last concert I listened to was the Adele Live at the Royal Albert Hall Blu-ray (a fantastic disk, by the way). The standard lossless audio had a wonderful sense of hall ambience. Adding additional processing like DSX made the ambience almost overwhelming, and I didn't like it as well. I think that the whole experience also has a lot to do with differences in our sound systems and our listening rooms, not just the recording. What is nice about the 4520 is that it offers so many choices.
post #1163 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Just popped the Expendables II into my 11 channel system...
The bass is very solid, surrounds all in action, but bear in mind it's not really 11 channel on this discs, it's matrixed.
There is no lights for DTS Neo - X...
It's a very cursory comparision, but IMO, I prefer Audyssey's flavor to DTS Neo-X. There is more side action with DTS Neo-X, but the enveloping experiences seems more with Audyssey and doesn't try to bring attention to individual speakers.


I tried this disc as well and thought the 11 channel processing was very well done.  Did you run the extra on the disc that demos the DTS NeoX 11.2 channel sound?  Each channel is tested independently and plays a clip from the movie.  In the test, they are discrete.  It is surely meant simply to show that the 11 speakers and sub are properly receiving the correct signal as the Blu-ray spec doesn't really incorporate 11 channels discretely.  However, the disc does properly send audio to each speaker which, when matrixed (I assume) in the movie, sounds very good.

post #1164 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by ke4pym View Post

Can the 4520 bi-amp/wire the center channel in addition to the mains? Only intending to have a 5.2 system.

It is possible but you will "lose" one of the amps (the original center), so you are left with 5.2 max internally with all fronts bi-amped.
post #1165 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by macrophone View Post

How do you change from displaying OUTPUT channels (default) to displaying INPUT channels? Are there any easy ways to toggle between the two displaying modes? Thanks.

Setup --> Front Display --> Channel Indicators ---> Input (p. 153 OM)

AFAIK, no easier way.
post #1166 of 7676
After playing with the sound settings a bit, I'm wishing the personal memory feature worked a little differently.

As far as I can tell, the 4520 remembers the Audio settings for each input, but not for each mode.

For example, what I would like to do is have Dialog Enhancer off for the Music mode, but on for the Movie mode across all inputs.

The way mine is working, if I set Dialog Enhancer on for movie mode, it is also on for music mode for that particular input.

IOW, I wish the memory functioned to allow different Audyssey and other Audio settings for Movie, Music, and Game mode, regardless of the input.
post #1167 of 7676
When I go into menu with network icons and am in the Media server accessing mp3 and FLAC files on my external network hard drive it seems to work fine. There are several folders, for music, including artist, genre, playlist, etc.

If I try to go into to playlist folder however, the system seems to lock up and in 15 to 30 seconds it seems to reconnect to the network (it says reconecting on the front display).

I do not have any playlists at all.

Not sure why it is locking up.

Also, how do you create a playlist on the media server hard drive?
post #1168 of 7676
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post


I tried this disc as well and thought the 11 channel processing was very well done.  Did you run the extra on the disc that demos the DTS NeoX 11.2 channel sound?  Each channel is tested independently and plays a clip from the movie.  In the test, they are discrete.  It is surely meant simply to show that the 11 speakers and sub are properly receiving the correct signal as the Blu-ray spec doesn't really incorporate 11 channels discretely.  However, the disc does properly send audio to each speaker which, when matrixed (I assume) in the movie, sounds very good.
Yep found that..
There is a sound check on the disc, under Extras.

All 11 channels are there, but I think Audyssey calibration and DTS Neo-X don't combine well.

The Wides leak into my side surrounds. The rest of the channels are discrete and easy to find where they are.
post #1169 of 7676
I tried it with the 4810's DSX. Works surprisingly well too. I liked how they got Arnie for the height L and Bruce for the height R test tones.
post #1170 of 7676
The 4520 showed up a day early. Let the drooling ( I mean installation) begin biggrin.gif

- Steven
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