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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 45

post #1321 of 7718
The game tonight (Cowboys versus Eagles) is sounding awesome running Dolby Digital EX with A-DSX (Heights & Wides). Very immersive! eek.gif
post #1322 of 7718
So I read on Amazon that the 4520 has one HDMI out that is discrete and two HDMI out that are parallel....so...how is this significant? Is it an important feature?
post #1323 of 7718
Hi There.

I am thinking of buying the 4520.

I would send the Pre Outs for FL and FR to my Classe Pre Amp in HT Bypass Mode and get that to power the FL and FR.

Can I use the Bi amp feature to Bi amp my centre channel speaker straight from the 4520 ?

The 4520 would then just be powering my centre channel (B&W HTM2 Diamond) and surrounds.

Thanks Tom
post #1324 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by JM71 View Post

Upgrading to the 4520 and plan to run 11.2 setup. I already have an Emotiva XPA-2 that runs my front speakers in a 9.2 setup. I know the 4520 will run the other 9 speakers just fine (using my existing amp to get to 11.2), but Emotiva is having a pretty decent sale and I was thinking about picking up another amp.
If I get an XPA-5 (200w x 5), which 5 channels would you use it to drive? I was thinking the center, front wides and side surrounds (based on recommendation on a related thread - thanks Snowmanick) but wanted some input from the folks here.
Also I was considering just getting just the XPA-100 (250w x 1) to run just the center channel and letting the 4520 handle all surrounds. This would give me a little more power on the center but the 4520 would now be handling 8 channels which is bound to reduce headroom. Thoughts?

I was considering the same setup as you just posted XPA-5.

If I was doing it I would run the Left, Right, Center and Wides

That way the front sound stage is represented the same.

Let the Denon handle the rears, and heights.

Question is, and I still haven't answered this for myself, IS there any advantage to letting the Emotiva handle the other channels? Is it clearer, less distortion, better dynamic handling then the Denon's discrete amplifier circuits? I'm not sure . . . I was hoping someone would have some experience or review in this department. But, maybe I just need to search harder
post #1325 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

Will using PCM by wiring it with HDMI, will the 5805 play 7.1 if the blu ray disc had that playback audio?

AFAIK, the 5.1 track would be selected just as a stereo track would be selected when connected to a TV.
post #1326 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Edge View Post

Hi There.
I am thinking of buying the 4520.
I would send the Pre Outs for FL and FR to my Classe Pre Amp in HT Bypass Mode and get that to power the FL and FR.
Can I use the Bi amp feature to Bi amp my centre channel speaker straight from the 4520 ?
The 4520 would then just be powering my centre channel (B&W HTM2 Diamond) and surrounds.
Thanks Tom

No, Denon advises against having the pre-out and speaker post going to the same speaker.
post #1327 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourbeef View Post

So I read on Amazon that the 4520 has one HDMI out that is discrete and two HDMI out that are parallel....so...how is this significant? Is it an important feature?

Depends on whether you want to send an HDMI source to another room (ie. AVR or TV). The feature is that there are (2) outputs in the main zone (eg. HDTV and PJ) and a discrete output to Zone 4 which can play an independent HDMI source either separate from the main zone or the same source as the main zone (with some possible limitations).
post #1328 of 7718
I just received mine and felt disheartened that the left surround back pre-out is not functioning. Audyssey says to check my connections. (All connections are working). I set the amp assign to preamp all and all but one speaker (SBL) are responding to the test tone.
I have updated with latest firmware and now am of the opinion the AVR is faulty. Has anyone else experienced this?

Really like the look of the AVR it is a lot bigger (taller) than I anticipated looks very beefy.
post #1329 of 7718
Give a microprocessor reset (p. 201 OM) a go.
post #1330 of 7718
I have an 11.1 set up. I did not use the assistant I went into manual setup to test tone after the ausdyssey message. I then updated the firmware . I will give it a try. Thankyou for you prompt response.
post #1331 of 7718
Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou jdsmoothie it works now biggrin.gif
post #1332 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

@ SoM,
I am one of the people who upgraded from a 4311 to a 4520, and am also a Pro user. I took careful measurements on the 4311 before the upgrade, and on the 4520 after the upgrade, holding all other things (room, treatments, speakers, etc.) constant during the upgrade. Comparing the before/after measurements, and based on my subjective listening impressions, I heard very little difference between the two units. There is one exception, which I documented, that the two units set the distance for sub2 very differently (which may be unique to my setup, since no one else has reported this). So, if one were making a decision based purely on sound quality, I would conclude that there is little, if any, difference in the two model AVR's.
Since I still have the 4311 (in the bedroom now), I could conduct additional tests, if someone had suggestions on tests that might be useful.

Interested in what the difference was on subwoofers.

Was subwoofer 1 the same between the two units?

What did it do with subwoofer 2?

What kind of subs are you running?
post #1333 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

I was considering the same setup as you just posted XPA-5.
If I was doing it I would run the Left, Right, Center and Wides That way the front sound stage is represented the same.
Let the Denon handle the rears, and heights.Question is, and I still haven't answered this for myself, IS there any advantage to letting the Emotiva handle the other channels? Is it clearer, less distortion, better dynamic handling then the Denon's discrete amplifier circuits? I'm not sure . . . I was hoping someone would have some experience or review in this department. But, maybe I just need to search harder

IMO probably not. The Denon internal amps on the 4311 are clean and robust and I assume the same for the 4520. I tested the 4311 vs Emotiva and could hear no diff for FR/L set to large for Stereo at reference level, with my relatively inefficient (4 ohm, 89dB) speakers at 9' from MLP. My current set up is FR/L and CC off the Halcro MC30 and using the AVR amps for surrounds and DSX wides, set to small. Sounds great.

But YMMV. If you have very difficult to drive speakers placed far away from MLP and you try to achieve reference levels you might hear a diff.

IMO the XPA 3 is a great option, as Pete suggested a page or so back. I suggested the XPA5 as kinda overkill/piece of mind and later flexibility, and for not much more $. I also qualified that by saying "That is, if there's a problem requiring a solution." IOW, if you have reasonably efficient speakers reasonably close and listen at reasonable levels, you could probably run all the speakers off the int amps and not hear any diff.
post #1334 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Interested in what the difference was on subwoofers.
Was subwoofer 1 the same between the two units?
What did it do with subwoofer 2?
What kind of subs are you running?

Jim,

I reported the issue in the Audyssey Pro thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1346723/the-audyssey-pro-installer-kit-thread-faq-in-post-1/3180#post_22488045

Please note that the issue that I observed is with the 4311, which seems to have been corrected with the 4520. And the issue only presents itself when calibrating with the Pro kit. I don't want to give anyone the impression that the 4520 has a bug with the sub distance calculation.
post #1335 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

I was considering the same setup as you just posted XPA-5.
If I was doing it I would run the Left, Right, Center and Wides That way the front sound stage is represented the same.
Let the Denon handle the rears, and heights.Question is, and I still haven't answered this for myself, IS there any advantage to letting the Emotiva handle the other channels? Is it clearer, less distortion, better dynamic handling then the Denon's discrete amplifier circuits? I'm not sure . . . I was hoping someone would have some experience or review in this department. But, maybe I just need to search harder

IMO probably not. The Denon internal amps on the 4311 are clean and robust and I assume the same for the 4520. I tested the 4311 vs Emotiva and could hear no diff for FR/L set to large for Stereo at reference level, with my relatively inefficient (4 ohm, 89dB) speakers at 9' from MLP. My current set up is FR/L and CC off the Halcro MC30 and using the AVR amps for surrounds and DSX wides, set to small. Sounds great.

But YMMV. If you have very difficult to drive speakers placed far away from MLP and you try to achieve reference levels you might hear a diff.

IMO the XPA 3 is a great option, as Pete suggested a page or so back. I suggested the XPA5 as kinda overkill/piece of mind and later flexibility, and for not much more $. I also qualified that by saying "That is, if there's a problem requiring a solution." IOW, if you have reasonably efficient speakers reasonably close and listen at reasonable levels, you could probably run all the speakers off the int amps and not hear any diff.

 

As someone who had a similarly specced Onkyo 5007 (130/140 wpc IIRC but probably specced into one or two channels driven together, as all AVRs seem to be) and who then added an XPA-3 and two UPA-2s, I tend to agree with you. I am happy I went that route as it paved the way for my current Onkyo 5509 prepro and I will be able to change processors ad infinitum if I wish while keeping the same amps. Or indeed, using a relatively cheap AVR with preouts as the processor, which may be a more sensible route than buying a flagship prepro again.

 

Where I think there can be a difference, in addition to the things you have identified, is in headroom on movie peaks. The Emo amps are rated with continuous power, all channels driven and they have very big transformers and power supplies and heavier duty capacitors than most AVRs. All that will make its presence felt on the very brief crescendos in many movies when the demands on the amps are massive. This is where I feel the benefit here - as you say, when the system is loping along (most of the time, even at very high average SPLS) there's going to be no real difference between the internal amps of a powerful AVR and external amps. But when the explosions etc happen the demands can be (momentarily) huge and it is possible that external amps help.  What I experience here is an apparently limitless amount of headroom, with an 'ease' of performance at the highest listening levels, even on those peaks. The amps never seem strained and never seem to run out of steam - just effortless. Occasionally, with my 5007, I felt that there was a little strain now and then. Maybe it's just a peace of mind thing as you suggest, but for me at least, it was worthwhile. 

 

I should also add that when I added the Emo amps I had different speakers which were quite hard to drive (dipped below 3 ohms at certain frequencies). I no longer have those and my speakers are 89dB/watt 4 ohms, like yours. My room is also very small - 1000 cu ft - and I sit approx 9 feet from the front speakers.

post #1336 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Depends on whether you want to send an HDMI source to another room (ie. AVR or TV). The feature is that there are (2) outputs in the main zone (eg. HDTV and PJ) and a discrete output to Zone 4 which can play an independent HDMI source either separate from the main zone or the same source as the main zone (with some possible limitations).
Thanks JD
post #1337 of 7718
I'm certainly interested in the 4520CI, but have a quick question that I'm struggling to answer when searching and perusing this thread.

Is there a way to turn off amp sections completely via the custom amp assign feature?

For example if today I just have a XPA-2 and want to use that for L/R and the 4520CI to power C/LS/RS will only the required three amp sections draw power? Along the same line if I then get an additional XPA-3 could I run the five channels via pre-out and not have the amplification section on at all?
post #1338 of 7718
Thread Starter 
there is a "pre amp mode" that disconnects the signal to the amp section, but it doesn't actually cut the power to the amps. There is no way to shut off individual amps. But it doesn't really matter anyway, the unused amps will just set there idle with no load.
post #1339 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

As someone who had a similarly specced Onkyo 5007 (130/140 wpc IIRC but probably specced into one or two channels driven together, as all AVRs seem to be) and who then added an XPA-3 and two UPA-2s, I tend to agree with you. I am happy I went that route as it paved the way for my current Onkyo 5509 prepro and I will be able to change processors ad infinitum if I wish while keeping the same amps. Or indeed, using a relatively cheap AVR with preouts as the processor, which may be a more sensible route than buying a flagship prepro again.

 

Where I think there can be a difference, in addition to the things you have identified, is in headroom on movie peaks. The Emo amps are rated with continuous power, all channels driven and they have very big transformers and power supplies and heavier duty capacitors than most AVRs. All that will make its presence felt on the very brief crescendos in many movies when the demands on the amps are massive. This is where I feel the benefit here - as you say, when the system is loping along (most of the time, even at very high average SPLS) there's going to be no real difference between the internal amps of a powerful AVR and external amps. But when the explosions etc happen the demands can be (momentarily) huge and it is possible that external amps help.  What I experience here is an apparently limitless amount of headroom, with an 'ease' of performance at the highest listening levels, even on those peaks. The amps never seem strained and never seem to run out of steam - just effortless. Occasionally, with my 5007, I felt that there was a little strain now and then. Maybe it's just a peace of mind thing as you suggest, but for me at least, it was worthwhile. 

 

I should also add that when I added the Emo amps I had different speakers which were quite hard to drive (dipped below 3 ohms at certain frequencies). I no longer have those and my speakers are 89dB/watt 4 ohms, like yours. My room is also very small - 1000 cu ft - and I sit approx 9 feet from the front speakers.

The question this suggests to me (bold) then is, with the change in speakers and the smallish room for the power, do you still feel there is any benefit to the Emo amp?  The general consensus has been that amps pretty much sound alike and the benefit is in challenging scenarios like very large rooms, challenging speakers, weak AVR amp, etc.  The only challenge I have is a very large room (20X32X8) with 11 speakers and I run the Denon 4520 at approx. -18db for satisfying sound.  My speakers are 8 ohm/92db efficient which wouldn't seem to need more power.  The Emo sale price on an XPA-3 was tempting - but, I really believe I am more tempted by the price and the idea than by any real "need" for additional power in my situation.

post #1340 of 7718
Is there any reason to be concerned that this AVR will produce a low hum in your speakers? My Onkyo does that, it is not that noticeable unless I am right up on the fronts but it is there. I believe the reason given had something to do with the HDMI component of it, maybe had something to do with the Comcast cable connection to it by HDMI too.
post #1341 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourbeef View Post

Is there any reason to be concerned that this AVR will produce a low hum in your speakers? My Onkyo does that, it is not that noticeable unless I am right up on the fronts but it is there. I believe the reason given had something to do with the HDMI component of it, maybe had something to do with the Comcast cable connection to it by HDMI too.

I don't hear low-level noise of any kind coming from my 4520.  If you were to experience a hum, I would suspect one of the source components.

post #1342 of 7718
I need to clarify something and fear put it on the forum may get me shot down in flames.
Firstly I have an 9.1 system. (standard 7.1 plus 2 for heights)
Just ran Audyssey and everything is working fine except I can't get dolby pl 11z . I can turn on the heights using audyssey DSX but for the life of me can not find a button to evoke Dolby 11z
for the heights. I can get Dolby 11x Cinema.

Is this because dolby 11z requires wides to be present?.

Also if I go into Speakers >manual setup and change the speakers to small and xover to 80hz I lose Dynamic Equalisation and Volume ie they grey out. I have only Audyssey graphic equaliser as an option ie xt32 settings are disengaged. This was not the case with my 4308A ie Dynamic Equalisation and Volume were all there.
post #1343 of 7718
Thread Starter 
something is weird here...

first off, changing the speaker size / crossover should NOT disable Audyssey.

second, PLIIz should be available as one of the surround mode choices. It definitely doesn't require "wides" to be present because it doesn't even support wides!
post #1344 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourbeef View Post

So I read on Amazon that the 4520 has one HDMI out that is discrete and two HDMI out that are parallel....so...how is this significant? Is it an important feature?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Depends on whether you want to send an HDMI source to another room (ie. AVR or TV). The feature is that there are (2) outputs in the main zone (eg. HDTV and PJ) and a discrete output to Zone 4 which can play an independent HDMI source either separate from the main zone or the same source as the main zone (with some possible limitations).

I'm looking at getting a 4520, but have a question regarding the above, as I'm finding the manual hard to follow .

I need video and associated audio to 3 zones as follows,

Living Area (Main Zone = Plasma with audio from 5.1 setup)
Bedroom (Zone 2 = Plasma with audio from TV only)
Kids Area (Zone 4 = LCD with audio from TV only)


I would like the kids to be able to use the PS3 whilst we use the HTPC in the Main zone or the Bedroom.

What are the gotcha's,if any re audio/video, such as can the Living Area(Main Zone) 5.1 speakers be muted if Kids Area(Zone 4) being used and bedroom(Zone 2) TV being used?

Would I be better off using an actual HDMI switch before the 4520, such as source/s - switch - Living area(4520 or other maybe 4311)
- Bedroom
- Kids Area

I'll be using a URC-MX980 via MRF-350 to control Main Zone and Zone 4 as they are next to each other, and a mix of RF/IR in the bedroom

Regards,

Mitch
post #1345 of 7718
@ con219 -

No, Front wides are not required for DD PLIIz. Ensure the Amp Assign setting is correctly set to 9.1CH and Assign mode is set to "SB/FH" (p. 141 OM). Based on your issue with losing Audyssey, it would seem the Front Height speakers never got EQ'd properly. Try doing the Audyssey setup again and ensure a test signal is sent to the FH speakers.
post #1346 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cocoboo View Post

I'm looking at getting a 4520, but have a question regarding the above, as I'm finding the manual hard to follow .
I need video and associated audio to 3 zones as follows,
Living Area (Main Zone = Plasma with audio from 5.1 setup)
Bedroom (Zone 2 = Plasma with audio from TV only)
Kids Area (Zone 4 = LCD with audio from TV only)
I would like the kids to be able to use the PS3 whilst we use the HTPC in the Main zone or the Bedroom.
What are the gotcha's,if any re audio/video, such as can the Living Area(Main Zone) 5.1 speakers be muted if Kids Area(Zone 4) being used and bedroom(Zone 2) TV being used?
Would I be better off using an actual HDMI switch before the 4520, such as source/s - switch - Living area(4520 or other maybe 4311)
- Bedroom
- Kids Area
I'll be using a URC-MX980 via MRF-350 to control Main Zone and Zone 4 as they are next to each other, and a mix of RF/IR in the bedroom
Regards,
Mitch

Unless you use a Xx2 HDMI switch between the AVR and sources you want to pass to Zone 2, you would need to connect the source with both a component video and analog audio cable and then connect the Zone 2 component video out and zone 2 pre-outs to the TV.
post #1347 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

@ con219 -
No, Front wides are not required for DD PLIIz. Ensure the Amp Assign setting is correctly set to 9.1CH and Assign mode is set to "SB/FH" (p. 141 OM). Based on your issue with losing Audyssey, it would seem the Front Height speakers never got EQ'd properly. Try doing the Audyssey setup again and ensure a test signal is sent to the FH speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

something is weird here...
first off, changing the speaker size / crossover should NOT disable Audyssey.
second, PLIIz should be available as one of the surround mode choices. It definitely doesn't require "wides" to be present because it doesn't even support wides!

Thanks for the prompt reply guys. Do you people sleep? biggrin.gif
I have rerun Audyssey again( after resetting the microprocessor.) from the main menu and not the assistant. Changed all my speakers to small and xover to 80hz for all.
Seems to be OK re audyssey. (I was doing this stuff in the early hours of the morning when the "issues" appeared.
Noticed on the output window heights appear and DTS neo X on the AVR window.( The last I played to test signal was DTS). I will try something with a DD sound track and see if 11z can appear.
The surround button toggle you guys are referring to is the red "movie' button on the remote?
post #1348 of 7718
Opps I meant green button and pressing it gives me a myriad of surround formats appearing on the screen. Thanks again to Batpig and JDSMOOTHIE
post #1349 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

The question this suggests to me (bold) then is, with the change in speakers and the smallish room for the power, do you still feel there is any benefit to the Emo amp?  The general consensus has been that amps pretty much sound alike and the benefit is in challenging scenarios like very large rooms, challenging speakers, weak AVR amp, etc.  The only challenge I have is a very large room (20X32X8) with 11 speakers and I run the Denon 4520 at approx. -18db for satisfying sound.  My speakers are 8 ohm/92db efficient which wouldn't seem to need more power.  The Emo sale price on an XPA-3 was tempting - but, I really believe I am more tempted by the price and the idea than by any real "need" for additional power in my situation.

Not Keith, but I will ad that I purchased my XPA5 when I had a Denon AVR4310. I was driving seven 4 ohm speakers (88dB sens) and the AVR was rated 6-16 Ohms. So I could hear it poop out with loss of clarity and dynamics once I cranked MV over -10. Of course I rarely listen at that volume but I figured I'd give the Emo a try (those holiday prices are very tempting) as I could always ship it back within 30 days. Well, the XPA5 fixed the lack of headroom handsomely so I kept it. With the 4311, I've never established whether it could handle all 7 speakers (it is rated to 4 Ohms) as I have collected enough amps (got a nice deal on a refurb Emo UPA2) so I could swap an AVR for a dedicated pre/pro (I was considering the AVPA1) if I wanted.

The argument as to whether bigger/more expensive amps can improve SQ can get pretty esoteric (and pretty contentious). I got a fabulous deal on a used $5K Halcro MC30 3 ch Class D amp. Based on what I'd read, I thought it probably wouldn't make any real diff but I wanted to hear for myself. I figured I could easily sell it for more than what I paid if "all amps sound the same driven within specs". I did some A/B tests to me it sounds cleaner, more detailed, more dynamic than the Emotiva, even at very reasonable volumes. It just seems "fast" effortlessly dynamic and very accurate. This is not a headroom issue. As to the amount of the improvement, it is relatively small. And sinceI have not subjected it to BAB testing-it may be a placebo effect. My friend Keith thinks I'm a bit batty on this matter. biggrin.gif

The take home message is that if you can't hear any problem now even while paying careful attention to transient peaks while playing as loud as you like it, adding an Emo amp is not likely to make much difference. But that doesn't mean you don't "need" one!biggrin.gif
post #1350 of 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Unless you use a Xx2 HDMI switch between the AVR and sources you want to pass to Zone 2, you would need to connect the source with both a component video and analog audio cable and then connect the Zone 2 component video out and zone 2 pre-outs to the TV.

Ok thanks, was hoping that wasn't going to be the case re the component and analog cables, think I will go the 4311 and a better 4x4 switch. that should be fun, rolleyes.gif

thanks
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