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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 56

post #1651 of 4515
12/13/12 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@jerry...
i agree completely with your opinion... smile.gif
tbh, i use mine very little... i subscribe to the nba/mlb packages anyway... and now that i switched to verizon for cell phone service, i get the nfl games...
siriusxm is almost a product of a time gone by... unless you can't live without stern (who i burned out when he was still at wnbc in ny), there's many better ways to accomplish the same goal now...

Speaking as one of the bleeding edge adaptors of XM (I even did a testimonial for them, which they used for a Chicago-area ad spot back in 2004), I agree....and I still remember how excited I was over having things like Special X, the Loft, and their World Music channels provided by Worldspace (where else could you hear cool sounds like their African channel Ngoma?). All of which are long gone or transformed beyond recognition as part of the merger with Sirius.

The problem is that while SiriusXM consolidates a few things, it does none of them any better (and from an AQ POV, worse) than what you can get with Internet streams or the likes of Pandora/Spotify. The main thing keeping them in business, aside from niche stuff like the Jimmy Buffet Channel, umpteen Sports channels, and Stern, is America's love afair with A/V in a car, and the archaic licensing model for the satellite sources. Internet radio is still embryonic aside from us techies types, even though the technology to stream is easy to use on smart phones.

But once LTE gets bigger, and AT&T works out their 'growing pains' with horrid urban infrastucture, satellite radio will be as much of a 'end of lifecycle' product as the Palm Pilot is today. The only thing that might slow the process is bandwidth limitations for wireless providers and the ISPs, or the reluctance of an aging Boomer population to move away from "radio". Besides which you can listen to much local radio these days on the Internet with the right app (Reciva Radio, TunedIn for example), so even that's covered to a point.

Otherwise, we pretty much do what AJ does - Internet radio from the IPhone to an AUX jack, except when we're lazy and turn on AM for traffic or Chicago sports.
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #1652 of 4515
12/13/12 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
you would actually be better off financially using the internet option, as the additional siriusxm receiver license will cost you more than the internet license... that also gives you the benefit of being able to access siriusxm from your handheld devices... which then allows you to use airplay or bluetooth to have siriusxm everywhere... wink.gif

I briefly thought about it, but I'm grandfathered in with older pricing so I'm currently paying $40 less for my 3yr XM Select plan and $1/mo less for my car addon. I wouldn't use XM from my phone/tablet so I wouldn't benefit from that feature. Does their internet stream CNN? Years ago I remember they couldn't due to licensing or something, which was a deal breaker because I typically listen to the news on XM at home during the day. Plus with the Lynx I can record, save, etc where I couldn't with the internet feed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Sorry, somewhat off-topic, and my opinion only.

I was a Sirius/XM subscriber for years (starting back when XM was part of the DirecTV package), and continuing with my BMW satellite radio.  However, with the recent explosion of internet music providers, both free and subscription-based, I think Sirius has fallen behind.  If music is your objective, there are many other services that do a better job than Sirius.  If you want sports and talk, then Sirius may still be the right choice.

If I were to continue with Sirius (which I didn't), I would certainly opt for the internet delivery, as Chris suggests.  And for in-car mobile listening, nothing beats an iPhone, installed in a nice car mount, and connected to the car's premium sound system.  Unlimited, on-demand music choice!

I totally agree, XM isn't as big of a player as it use to now that net radio is so accessible. There are a few things that make me keep it though, besides the streaming news and NHL games when in the car (when there isn't a lockout), is the jamband station that occasionally plays live concerts. There have been numerous times I've depended on it for Phish shows or Bonnaroo. cool.gif

But yeah, as time passes there are more options and in a few years I can see myself moving on.
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post #1653 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irwinroad View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyDeg View Post

Feels like I haven't visited AVSFORUM in forever! Nice thread! Currently own the Denon AVR-3808A and plan to upgrade to an AVR-4520 with the matching BDT-3313.
I have one concern in regards to a feature in the AVR-4520 that I'm hoping someone can help me with. I've read the user manual twice but can't find any detailed info on this. The older models were quite flexible in terms of 'Personal Memory Plus' and the ability to control individual speaker level settings memorized per input source / soundmode. In other words; I may want to tweak speaker levels settings for, say, 'Multi Channel Stereo' when listening to the CD input regardless of the general setting done by the main calibration that applies to all other sources.
Can one do this also on the AVR-4520? Just how does one change and memorize speaker level settings on-the-fly? On the remote of the AVR-3808A you simply press 'ENTER' during playback and get a dedicated speaker level menu for that particular source input. Simple and extremely practical. I pray they haven't been dumb enough to ditch this convenient feature!?
Grateful to any kind soul who can give me a definitive answer to this CHEERS! smile.gif

Look at Post #1 LINK TO 4520CI DOCUMENT OF ALL CUSTOM IR CODES The only way to control individual
speaker levels is by using discrete codes with a universal home theater remote remote ie Crestron RTI URC Harmony etc.

while true, i do not think that is what he is asking... smile.gif

i think what he is asking is once you have actually changed the levels, will they be maintained by individual source, or be able to be saved as a quick select setting...


Here's the deal -- assuming the 4520 behaves like the xx13 models, which I assume it will. I futzed around with this pretty extensively on my 2113CI to test. You can read through my summary of the testing in this post, which is pretty thorough: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq/1770#post_22365576

Short and skinny version:

1. Channel levels are memorized by Surround Mode "family" just like in the old days with the 3808CI. MULTICH IN is one family, Dolby/DTS multichannel modes are another family, and then the other ancillary surround modes (Stereo, Direct, Multich Stereo, However....

2. There is no longer a CH LEVEL button on the remote, and even the CH LEVEL discrete command send from an old remote or a programmable universal does nothing on the new models. So this "on the fly" channel level adjustment option no longer exists, even if you have access to the remote command. If you go into the Speaker Setup menus and adjust the levels using the test tones, it will *globally* reset the channel levels for all surround modes.

3. The good news, as Irwinroad noted above, the individual channel volume discretes DO work on the new models. Of course, this requires a programmable universal to access.

So bottom line is YES the channel levels can still be tweaked by surround mode family, but you need a good universal remote to make it hapen.
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post #1654 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:10pm
Thought this might help some people , I always seen these Powerline AV Adapter kits but had my doubts so I purchased one TPL-402E2K is the model I purchased . Anyway today it shows up it took me more time to open the box then it did to set it up plug it in and your done works awesome for people that dont want to run cables .

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post #1655 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Here's the deal -- assuming the 4520 behaves like the xx13 models, which I assume it will. I futzed around with this pretty extensively on my 2113CI to test. You can read through my summary of the testing in this post, which is pretty thorough: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1409431/the-official-denon-avr-xx13-model-owners-thread-faq/1770#post_22365576
Short and skinny version:
1. Channel levels are memorized by Surround Mode "family" just like in the old days with the 3808CI. MULTICH IN is one family, Dolby/DTS multichannel modes are another family, and then the other ancillary surround modes (Stereo, Direct, Multich Stereo, However....
2. There is no longer a CH LEVEL button on the remote, and even the CH LEVEL discrete command send from an old remote or a programmable universal does nothing on the new models. So this "on the fly" channel level adjustment option no longer exists, even if you have access to the remote command. If you go into the Speaker Setup menus and adjust the levels using the test tones, it will *globally* reset the channel levels for all surround modes.
3. The good news, as Irwinroad noted above, the individual channel volume discretes DO work on the new models. Of course, this requires a programmable universal to access.
So bottom line is YES the channel levels can still be tweaked by surround mode family, but you need a good universal remote to make it hapen.

Ok, thank you so much! smile.gif That gave me at least a little bit of hope. I will check out the link that Irwinroad gave. I do own the Harmony 900 remote (which, to my knowledge, does not do macros - but perhaps it will work another way?).
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post #1656 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:35pm
I've been trying to find some guidance on how to use the 11 channel capability of the 4520 (still don't have the receiver yet, but it's coming). How do I incorporate the other piece that will amplify the 2 speakers that the 4520 cannot work with (since it's only 9-channel)?

I know I will get the signal from the 4520 pre-out connectors. But where does that connect to if the other device is also an receiver? Into one of the component jacks? What about volume control?

Thanks.
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post #1657 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyDeg View Post

Ok, thank you so much! smile.gif That gave me at least a little bit of hope. I will check out the link that Irwinroad gave. I do own the Harmony 900 remote (which, to my knowledge, does not do macros - but perhaps it will work another way?).

DeRemote app (iPhone/iPad) will do the same. I did not test whether it would store the new volume values.
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post #1658 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanGeek View Post

I've been trying to find some guidance on how to use the 11 channel capability of the 4520 (still don't have the receiver yet, but it's coming). How do I incorporate the other piece that will amplify the 2 speakers that the 4520 cannot work with (since it's only 9-channel)?

I know I will get the signal from the 4520 pre-out connectors. But where does that connect to if the other device is also an receiver? Into one of the component jacks? What about volume control?

Thanks.

I think you are overcomplicating things. There are 9 amps built in, and 11 pre-outs for all 11 channels (plus two for the subs). If you want to run 11 channels, you need (at minimum) two more channels of amplification. That's all there is too it -- just hook up the external amp to the pre-outs of the either the front mains or front heights (as your first two externally amp'd option) and run Audyssey.

The external amp is just an amp -- all the processing (including volume control) is done in the main processor (the 4520).
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post #1659 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyDeg View Post

I do own the Harmony 900 remote (which, to my knowledge, does not do macros - but perhaps it will work another way?).

Macros are irrelevant -- a macro is a series of multiple commands strung together. These discrete channel level volume controls are individual commands (no different than volume up/down, except they are specific for a given speaker channel).

The trick is getting them programmed into your Harmony. Read up here: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=106

Users on this thread have reported success using the HexToHarmony tool linked in that post. Once the commands have been added to your Harmony device profile, they can be added to any button just like any other command.
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post #1660 of 4515
12/13/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Macros are irrelevant -- a macro is a series of multiple commands strung together. These discrete channel level volume controls are individual commands (no different than volume up/down, except they are specific for a given speaker channel).
The trick is getting them programmed into your Harmony. Read up here: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=106
Users on this thread have reported success using the HexToHarmony tool linked in that post. Once the commands have been added to your Harmony device profile, they can be added to any button just like any other command.

Truly appreciate your help! smile.gif I will dig deeper into this! Thank you once more!
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post #1661 of 4515
12/13/12 at 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think you are overcomplicating things. There are 9 amps built in, and 11 pre-outs for all 11 channels (plus two for the subs). If you want to run 11 channels, you need (at minimum) two more channels of amplification. That's all there is too it -- just hook up the external amp to the pre-outs of the either the front mains or front heights (as your first two externally amp'd option) and run Audyssey.
The external amp is just an amp -- all the processing (including volume control) is done in the main processor (the 4520).

Sorry. I don't think I explained it well enough. What happens when I don't have an external amp? What happens when it's another Denon Receiver? Can they be used instead of an external amp?

Thanks.
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post #1662 of 4515
12/13/12 at 1:58pm
Thread Starter 
if you are using a receiver instead of a "true" amp, you want to feed the receiver via the "cleanest" RCA input possible. If the receiver has multich analog inputs, that means you use those since they inherently bypass any processing. If not, most of the time the analog inputs are all identical (excepting a pre-amp stage on a PHONO input) so it doesn't matter whether you use DVD or CD or whatever.

run the RCA cable from the pre-outs of the 4520 to the designated RCA input on the 2nd receiver. If you don't have multich analog inputs, I would make sure the source you choose (e.g. the "CD" input) is set to "DIRECT" mode which will ensure that all processing is bypassed and you get the cleanest signal path to the amp section. Obviously, make sure that the 2nd receiver has everything else that could muck things up shut off, e.g. zero out the speaker delays (distance) and channel levels, turn off any bass management, etc. You want to turn that 2nd receiver into as "pure" of an amplifier as you can.

then you set the volume on the external receiver such that you can obtain a test tone in the 75dB range when played from the 4520. It will help if you have an SPL meter so you can futz around with this.

once everything is set, you just run Audyssey on the 4520 and then NEVER adjust any controls on the 2nd receiver. The 4520 will calibrate the speaker volumes, distances, etc. and all of the volume control is provided by the main processor (the 4520).

all that being said..... if at all possible, I would recommend selling the old receiver and then just buying a "real" external amp. It will make things so much easier.
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post #1663 of 4515
12/13/12 at 2:03pm
^^^

+1 to the "sell avr, buy amp"...

2 channel amps for surrounds are DIRT cheap... they don't need much juice...
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post #1664 of 4515
12/13/12 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

as I mentioned to you before, AirPlay can't turn the receiver off, but you CAN use the Auto Standby feature to let the receiver turn itself off on its own.
to use AirPlay on Zone 2 only, you first have to "hijack" the whole receiver with the initial AirPlay stream. At that point, you should then be able to turn off the main zone and/or switch the main zone to a different source, and AirPlay should continue playing in Zone 2.

I guess I should have read this post before I asked a bunch of AirPlay questions yesterday. So what you are saying is that when Denon support tells me that they have fixed the problem of AirPlay hijacking the main zone they are telling a half truth because now after pissing off the kids watching a movie you can at least switch them back.

Is it just me or is this not a joke? Does this same behavior occur when you select a DNLA media server? Batpig, are you 100% certain that the main zone is still hijacked and that zone2 does work i.e., you done it yourself. Your post says that the Denon "should" let you switch back and it "should" continue playing in zone 2. Should I read your equivocation as a comment on the implementation of AirPlay in general on the Denon?

Batpig, you probably don't remember but we discussed the AirPlay implementation when the 4311 came out 2 years ago. At the time I was shocked at what a piss poor effort (IMHO) it was on the part of Denon to implement this feature correctly for a $2500 AVR. It seems to me that if what you are saying is correct it's still a piss poor implementation. Would you agree?

BTW, I would replace my 4311 with the newer 4520 if they could just get this feature right.

thx
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post #1665 of 4515
12/13/12 at 4:29pm
Thread Starter 
I honestly don't know who's at fault in this respect, if it's some limitation of the Airplay protocol or something. The thing is, this "hijack" limitation does NOT apply to other network sources. I agree it's a bit of an annoyance, obviously not an ideal implementation.

And, yes, I have tried this myself on my 2113CI. The whole receiver is definitely "hijacked" when the Airplay stream initiates, I am 100% certain on this point; in my testing, I was then able to switch Main Zone to a different source and Airplay continued playing in Zone 2. I only said "should" to hedge just in case something is a little different on the 4520, plus I couldn't remember if I was actually able to turn Main Zone OFF (as opposed to just switching it to another source).

I'll be honest -- if true independent AirPlay to Zone 2/3 is a major priority, I would simply snag an Airport Express and hook it up to a free analog audio port and call it a day. Then you can stream Airplay to the AE and out to Zone 2/3 without interrupting Main Zone with no issues, and you can still control everything easily from your smartphone or iPad.

Another little "niggle" with the built-in Airplay implementation as it relates to Zone 2 is that the "linked" volume doesn't work with Zone 2 playback. As I assume you know, when you stream Airplay to the receiver the volume of the receiver is linked to the Airplay source (whether iTunes on a computer or from an app in the iPhone/iPad). However, the Zone 2 volume, being independent, does not benefit from this linkage... you will have to control Zone 2 volume normally using the receiver's controls (whether the remote or the Remote app on your iDevice). Not a big deal.... except for the fact that I discovered that (at least on my 2113CI) the main zone is STILL linked, even when on another source! So when I was testing, for example, I had Airplay playing on my speakers in the back yard (Zone 2), and switched to my Roku box or whatever on my main zone... and then I tried to hit the volume buttons on my iPhone, and instead of the Zone 2 volume changing, the main zone volume changed, even though it wasn't on the Airplay source!
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post #1666 of 4515
12/13/12 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I honestly don't know who's at fault in this respect, if it's some limitation of the Airplay protocol or something. The thing is, this "hijack" limitation does NOT apply to other network sources. I agree it's a bit of an annoyance, obviously not an ideal implementation.
And, yes, I have tried this myself on my 2113CI. The whole receiver is definitely "hijacked" when the Airplay stream initiates, I am 100% certain on this point; in my testing, I was then able to switch Main Zone to a different source and Airplay continued playing in Zone 2. I only said "should" to hedge just in case something is a little different on the 4520, plus I couldn't remember if I was actually able to turn Main Zone OFF (as opposed to just switching it to another source).
I'll be honest -- if true independent AirPlay to Zone 2/3 is a major priority, I would simply snag an Airport Express and hook it up to a free analog audio port and call it a day. Then you can stream Airplay to the AE and out to Zone 2/3 without interrupting Main Zone with no issues, and you can still control everything easily from your smartphone or iPad.
Another little "niggle" with the built-in Airplay implementation as it relates to Zone 2 is that the "linked" volume doesn't work with Zone 2 playback. As I assume you know, when you stream Airplay to the receiver the volume of the receiver is linked to the Airplay source (whether iTunes on a computer or from an app in the iPhone/iPad). However, the Zone 2 volume, being independent, does not benefit from this linkage... you will have to control Zone 2 volume normally using the receiver's controls (whether the remote or the Remote app on your iDevice). Not a big deal.... except for the fact that I discovered that (at least on my 2113CI) the main zone is STILL linked, even when on another source! So when I was testing, for example, I had Airplay playing on my speakers in the back yard (Zone 2), and switched to my Roku box or whatever on my main zone... and then I tried to hit the volume buttons on my iPhone, and instead of the Zone 2 volume changing, the main zone volume changed, even though it wasn't on the Airplay source!

hmm.. well I doubt it's an AirPlay protocol thing that causes the main zone to be hi-jacked and thx for clarifying the behavior and explaining the hedge - I get it.. I have been using an ATV into the 4311 for 2 years until it just stopped working (again). BTW, it is not restricted to analog only on the 4311. It will take 2-channel PCM over the toslink output from the ATV. The problem I have now is that it's stop working on not only this AirPlay method but also DNLA media server delivered over Net/USB (main zone hijack on the 4311 notwithstanding). I haven't reset the processor again yet to see if I can get it back working again. Frankly, I'm concerned that the 4311 is fried internally and can no longer reliably clock to the digital stream. I suspect this because I can power off a few times and maybe if I'm lucky get a couple of minutes of music playback before it craps out again.

Anyway, I would have been prepared to just buy a new 4520 and if for example it plays off DNLA at all the formats I want (mostly FLAC24) then that would be nice. I use Songbird for all my serious music listening. However this AirPlay stuff just sticks in my craw. I'm sure if I swap out the Toslink on the ATV and use analog directly it'll work again but I shouldn't have to be compromising like this on $2500 AVR equipment. And is it true that the spec for the 4250 says only analog inputs to zone2. The 4311 said that too but in very fine print is also says 2-channel PCM only is supported.

As far as I"m concerned Denon should just get with the program (pun intended) and implement the freakin feature correctly once and for all. Support Airplay directly, power on and off directly into the zone you want and leave all other zones alone. Is it really that hard? I think it's incompetent programming more like.

thx for listening ;-)
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post #1667 of 4515
12/13/12 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by setanta View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I honestly don't know who's at fault in this respect, if it's some limitation of the Airplay protocol or something. The thing is, this "hijack" limitation does NOT apply to other network sources. I agree it's a bit of an annoyance, obviously not an ideal implementation.
And, yes, I have tried this myself on my 2113CI. The whole receiver is definitely "hijacked" when the Airplay stream initiates, I am 100% certain on this point; in my testing, I was then able to switch Main Zone to a different source and Airplay continued playing in Zone 2. I only said "should" to hedge just in case something is a little different on the 4520, plus I couldn't remember if I was actually able to turn Main Zone OFF (as opposed to just switching it to another source).
I'll be honest -- if true independent AirPlay to Zone 2/3 is a major priority, I would simply snag an Airport Express and hook it up to a free analog audio port and call it a day. Then you can stream Airplay to the AE and out to Zone 2/3 without interrupting Main Zone with no issues, and you can still control everything easily from your smartphone or iPad.
Another little "niggle" with the built-in Airplay implementation as it relates to Zone 2 is that the "linked" volume doesn't work with Zone 2 playback. As I assume you know, when you stream Airplay to the receiver the volume of the receiver is linked to the Airplay source (whether iTunes on a computer or from an app in the iPhone/iPad). However, the Zone 2 volume, being independent, does not benefit from this linkage... you will have to control Zone 2 volume normally using the receiver's controls (whether the remote or the Remote app on your iDevice). Not a big deal.... except for the fact that I discovered that (at least on my 2113CI) the main zone is STILL linked, even when on another source! So when I was testing, for example, I had Airplay playing on my speakers in the back yard (Zone 2), and switched to my Roku box or whatever on my main zone... and then I tried to hit the volume buttons on my iPhone, and instead of the Zone 2 volume changing, the main zone volume changed, even though it wasn't on the Airplay source!

hmm.. well I doubt it's an AirPlay protocol thing that causes the main zone to be hi-jacked and thx for clarifying the behavior and explaining the hedge - I get it.. I have been using an ATV into the 4311 for 2 years until it just stopped working (again). BTW, it is not restricted to analog only on the 4311. It will take 2-channel PCM over the toslink output from the ATV. The problem I have now is that it's stop working on not only this AirPlay method but also DNLA media server delivered over Net/USB (main zone hijack on the 4311 notwithstanding). I haven't reset the processor again yet to see if I can get it back working again. Frankly, I'm concerned that the 4311 is fried internally and can no longer reliably clock to the digital stream. I suspect this because I can power off a few times and maybe if I'm lucky get a couple of minutes of music playback before it craps out again.

Anyway, I would have been prepared to just buy a new 4520 and if for example it plays off DNLA at all the formats I want (mostly FLAC24) then that would be nice. I use Songbird for all my serious music listening. However this AirPlay stuff just sticks in my craw. I'm sure if I swap out the Toslink on the ATV and use analog directly it'll work again but I shouldn't have to be compromising like this on $2500 AVR equipment. And is it true that the spec for the 4250 says only analog inputs to zone2. The 4311 said that too but in very fine print is also says 2-channel PCM only is supported.

As far as I"m concerned Denon should just get with the program (pun intended) and implement the freakin feature correctly once and for all. Support Airplay directly, power on and off directly into the zone you want and leave all other zones alone. Is it really that hard? I think it's incompetent programming more like.

thx for listening ;-)

So I'm not the first one to inquire about airplay....I'll let congress solve the fiscal cliff issue, then write my congressmen to fix this issue by passing a law rolleyes.gif
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post #1668 of 4515
12/13/12 at 5:46pm
Back to things related to Denon and HT....
This inquire came outta a post in the construction forum, I'd like to ask about the Denon 4308CI and 4520CI handling of 2 side surrounds shown in the below image from my 4308CI manual
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1439952/l-r-width-speakers-in-a-narrow-room#post_22699059


I wonder if I did set-up as shown in setting 5 if the Audyssey routine would ping each side A and B speaker seperately or as a 2 speaker array??
If separately, that's a feature I did not realize and could lead to some better choices for have 2 rows of seating and level balancing them,
( when sometimes just 1 or the other is used......)
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post #1669 of 4515
12/13/12 at 7:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

...I have a set of high-quality front left and right speakers.  It is not unreasonable that for movies, I would configure the fronts as small, and use the subs for low frequencies.  However, for serious music listening, I might want to configure the fronts as large, and turn off the subs.  On previous models like the 4311 (and the 4308, IIRC), one could have a separate configuration for stereo listening that would be invoked by simply selecting stereo as the output choice.  Evidently, Denon no longer believes in this approach, and even expects users to have a separate set of front speakers for multi-channel and stereo listening....
I'm just saying that as a previous 4311 owner, I sometimes think I have taken a step backwards.  Heck, I may have purchased the world's most expensive 4-port network hub!

Sorry to hear this Jerry. However, take heart my friend. With your tweaking expertise and nice subs, I'd think that what's exc for MC SQ will be as exc for stereo SQ.

I've tried, and I cannot achieve better SQ with my very expensive, very high quality, very capable fronts running them full range no matter how serious the listening. As the subs are carefully placed to even out the room bass problems, it hurts SQ when I take them out of the equation.
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post #1670 of 4515
12/13/12 at 7:42pm

^^^ Very true, SoM.  I think I am more upset with the fact that Denon has removed some capabilities, rather than actually missing the ability to configure a separate stereo listening mode.  I'm afraid batpig is correct--my complaints were nitpics.  And I certainly agree, listening with full RC and bass management is a much richer experience.

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post #1671 of 4515
12/13/12 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

So I'm not the first one to inquire about airplay....I'll let congress solve the fiscal cliff issue, then write my congressmen to fix this issue by passing a law rolleyes.gif

No I suspect you're not. What I'd like to know is if Denon pays the slightest attention to what is said about their products on these forums or if we're all just proverbially pissing in the wind.. I feel we have a right to expect better.
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post #1672 of 4515
12/13/12 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by setanta View Post


No I suspect you're not. What I'd like to know is if Denon pays the slightest attention to what is said about their products on these forums or if we're all just proverbially pissing in the wind.. I feel we have a right to expect better.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen any evidence of Denon's direct participation in any of the Denon product threads I subscribe to.  The way to provide feedback to Denon is through their technical support.  If we don't report the issues, we can't expect any action.

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post #1673 of 4515
12/13/12 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have a set of high-quality front left and right speakers.  It is not unreasonable that for movies, I would configure the fronts as small, and use the subs for low frequencies.  However, for serious music listening, I might want to configure the fronts as large, and turn off the subs.  On previous models like the 4311 (and the 4308, IIRC), one could have a separate configuration for stereo listening that would be invoked by simply selecting stereo as the output choice.  Evidently, Denon no longer believes in this approach, and even expects users to have a separate set of front speakers for multi-channel and stereo listening. 

I'm just saying that as a previous 4311 owner, I sometimes think I have taken a step backwards.  Heck, I may have purchased the world's most expensive 4-port network hub!

Jerry,

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your issue. But couldn't you just select the Direct mode to play your front speakers in full range? Sorry to hear that you are finding features that are not available on the 4520 that were on the 4311. I'd be bummed too frown.gif.

Bill
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post #1674 of 4515
12/13/12 at 8:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I wonder if I did set-up as shown in setting 5 if the Audyssey routine would ping each side A and B speaker seperately or as a 2 speaker array??
If separately, that's a feature I did not realize and could lead to some better choices for have 2 rows of seating and level balancing them,
( when sometimes just 1 or the other is used......)

The A/B switching for surround speakers is a thing of the past. I believe it lasted through the 4310, but with the advent of DSX and all those others fancy things you can do with extra features, it's gone the way of the dodo. wink.gif

The original intended purpose was to allow you to have a pair of monopole surrounds for multichannel 5.1 music, and then seamlessly switch to a separate pair of dipole surrounds for movies. Although you could use it to have two pairs of side surrounds for multiple rows, they wouldn't be pinged individually because they share the same amp channel... If you want two pairs of side surrounds, you could still do that by wiring them in series or by splitting the preout signal to two channels on an external amp. But it's still only one CHANNEL of content per side, so you wouldn't get independent calibration or content.
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post #1675 of 4515
12/13/12 at 8:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by setanta View Post

No I suspect you're not. What I'd like to know is if Denon pays the slightest attention to what is said about their products on these forums or if we're all just proverbially pissing in the wind.. I feel we have a right to expect better.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen any evidence of Denon's direct participation in any of the Denon product threads I subscribe to.  The way to provide feedback to Denon is through their technical support.  If we don't report the issues, we can't expect any action.

"DenonJeff" back in the day used to be here all the time, till 2008?
Then he stopped answering Q's here, and in my memory left Denon 2009?
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post #1676 of 4515
12/13/12 at 8:43pm
Thread Starter 
Just FYI on Airplay and Zone 2 -- I've been tinkering a bit this evening and I can confirm the initial "hijack" of main zone when the Airplay stream starts. As mentioned before, once you power on zone 2 you can then switch main zone to a different source. I also confirmed my initial finding that the Airplay volume is still "linked" to main zone even when Airplay is only playing in zone 2!

What I couldn't do however is play Airplay to zone 2 without main zone being powered on! When I would power off main zone with Airplay going, it would stop in zone 2. When I tried to reinitiate the Airplay stream, main zone popped back on. So if you want to use internal Airplay to another zone without making noise in main zone, you have to switch main zone to a "dead" input or just turn the volume down all the way in main zone.

I did confirm though that it's no issue starting a different network source in zone 2, with or without main zone powered on. I was able to use the Denon app in my iPad to start Pandora or Internet radio playing in zone 2 without any problem, without affecting main zone.
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post #1677 of 4515
12/13/12 at 8:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Jerry,
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your issue. But couldn't you just select the Direct mode to play your front speakers in full range? Sorry to hear that you are finding features that are not available on the 4520 that were on the 4311. I'd be bummed too frown.gif.
Bill

Using Direct also turns off Audyssey. The approach in the 4311 was a "2Ch Direct/Stereo" menu which allowed the tailoring of speaker size, crossover, trims, distances, and subwoofer mode independent of the normal Multi-channel settings. These settings would leave the Audyssey settings untouched. In other words, it was a much finer control of two-channel playback.
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post #1678 of 4515
12/13/12 at 9:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I wonder if I did set-up as shown in setting 5 if the Audyssey routine would ping each side A and B speaker seperately or as a 2 speaker array??
If separately, that's a feature I did not realize and could lead to some better choices for have 2 rows of seating and level balancing them,
( when sometimes just 1 or the other is used......)

The A/B switching for surround speakers is a thing of the past. I believe it lasted through the 4310, but with the advent of DSX and all those others fancy things you can do with extra features, it's gone the way of the dodo. wink.gif

The original intended purpose was to allow you to have a pair of monopole surrounds for multichannel 5.1 music, and then seamlessly switch to a separate pair of dipole surrounds for movies. Although you could use it to have two pairs of side surrounds for multiple rows, they wouldn't be pinged individually because they share the same amp channel... If you want two pairs of side surrounds, you could still do that by wiring them in series or by splitting the preout signal to two channels on an external amp. But it's still only one CHANNEL of content per side, so you wouldn't get independent calibration or content.

I understand it's the same side surround signal....but aren't there separate amps driving both A and B speakers as shown in the layout?
If so, then they should be able to have separate trim to balance the level, or am I thinking too much into this?

I could NOT find the diagram in my 4520CI manual, so maybe it's a moot point.
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post #1679 of 4515
12/13/12 at 9:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Just FYI on Airplay and Zone 2 -- I've been tinkering a bit this evening and I can confirm the initial "hijack" of main zone when the Airplay stream starts. As mentioned before, once you power on zone 2 you can then switch main zone to a different source. I also confirmed my initial finding that the Airplay volume is still "linked" to main zone even when Airplay is only playing in zone 2!

What I couldn't do however is play Airplay to zone 2 without main zone being powered on! When I would power off main zone with Airplay going, it would stop in zone 2. When I tried to reinitiate the Airplay stream, main zone popped back on. So if you want to use internal Airplay to another zone without making noise in main zone, you have to switch main zone to a "dead" input or just turn the volume down all the way in main zone.

I did confirm though that it's no issue starting a different network source in zone 2, with or without main zone powered on. I was able to use the Denon app in my iPad to start Pandora or Internet radio playing in zone 2 without any problem, without affecting main zone.

Looks like Airplay needs some interface improvements...for now it's kinda cool using it, just can't grasp why the added flexibility which seems doable is not incorporated.
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post #1680 of 4515
12/13/12 at 9:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I understand it's the same side surround signal....but aren't there separate amps driving both A and B speakers as shown in the layout??

Absolutely not, examine the diagram more closely -- there is only ONE channel caption (SL and SR) associated with each PAIR of A/B speakers. Each pair is driven by one channel of amplification and content.

Also remember the 4308ci was a 7ch receiver. The diagrams show 9 speakers connected, there aren't enough amps to go around if you think about it.

And of course it's a moot point -- as I note in my original response, this feature disappeared several models ago. But of course I'm happy to keep talking about the way it USED to work smile.gif
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