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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 61

post #1801 of 7829
I would use the 4520 in pre-amp mode with the 5805 amps....If you have the space you'll have more power from the 5805 to work with than the new amps....
post #1802 of 7829
Thank you for your response. I have reset the 5805 to factory settings. Other than setting the 5805 to recognize multi channel input, is there anything else that I need to do with it?
post #1803 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

I need some help... I am coming from an AVR-5805 and have purchased an AVR-4520ci. I notice at reference levels the 4520ci has no where near the output the 5805 does. I have ran both in 7 channel surround modes with 8 subs. I am toying with the idea of using the 4520 as a preamp and using the 5805 to drive the speakers. My L/R/C are Klipsch KL7800 thx and my SR/RL are Klipsch 5800w and my SBR/SBL are Klipsch 5650s. Any thoughts or input to my idea. Thanks.

 

Just to be sure, Randy, when you say "reference level", are you saying that when the master volume is at zero, the sound output is too low?  That indicates to me that something is wrong with the 4520 configuration.  I have speakers that are about the same sensitivity as yours (90dB), and if I were to raise the MV to zero, it would be too loud for me to stand.

 

Have you run Audyssey calibration?  If yes, what are the trims for your front speakers?  Do you have Audyssey Dynamic EQ turned on?  How about dynamic volume--on or off? 

 

I think using the 5805 as an amp is avoiding the issue, and making your setup unnecessarily complicated.  The150W amps in the 4520 should be more than adequate to drive your speakers to deafening levels. 

post #1804 of 7829
I have run Audyssey. I will have to check to see what the trims were set to. I am not sure how to turn on the Dynamic EQ as well as Dynamic volume. When I say reference volume... About - 20db to -8 deb.
post #1805 of 7829
Too low compared to what the 5805 output. It is loud and clear with the 4520, but the 5805 definitely had more output at same levels on the master volume.
post #1806 of 7829
You are still getting the same EQ from the 4520 into your 5805.....hard to believe amps that different...
Can you post a picture of your calibration results?


Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk
post #1807 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

You are still getting the same EQ from the 4520 into your 5805.....hard to believe amps that different...
Can you post a picture of your calibration results?
Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk
I will take picture of results and post.
post #1808 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

Too low compared to what the 5805 output. It is loud and clear with the 4520, but the 5805 definitely had more output at same levels on the master volume.

 

Why does that make a difference?  If the 4520 is too low, simply turn up the MV.  It's not an indication that the 4520 is underpowered.  Since the 5805 and thr 4520 are different AVR's, it doesn't surprise me that there is a difference in output levels at the same MV settings.  And remember, you are going from XT to XT32 calibration, which might make a difference.

 

Dynamic EQ is on by default after a calibration, and dynamic volume is usually off be default.  Dynamic volume would tend to make the volume level lower, so I don't recommend using it until you are happy with the overall output level of the 4520.  Leave DEQ on.

post #1809 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

You are still getting the same EQ from the 4520 into your 5805.....hard to believe amps that different...
Can you post a picture of your calibration results?
Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk
[IMG][IMG]
post #1810 of 7829
post #1811 of 7829
. MultiEQ XT32 was set to off. I just changed it tonGraphic EQ. Why is Dynamic EQ and the rest of the choices below MultiEQ XT32 gray'd out?
post #1812 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

. MultiEQ XT32 was set to off. I just changed it tonGraphic EQ. Why is Dynamic EQ and the rest of the choices below MultiEQ XT32 gray'd out?

Well, now we see the problem. Audyssey is turned off. If you cycle through the choices, one of the choices should be "Audyssey". Select that. Now all the Audyssey options underneath should be available. And the overall output of the 4520 should be higher with Audyssey enabled.

If Audyssey is not one of the choices, then your calibration is bad and will need to be re-run.
post #1813 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Just to be sure, Randy, when you say "reference level", are you saying that when the master volume is at zero, the sound output is too low?  That indicates to me that something is wrong with the 4520 configuration.  I have speakers that are about the same sensitivity as yours (90dB), and if I were to raise the MV to zero, it would be too loud for me to stand.

Have you run Audyssey calibration?  If yes, what are the trims for your front speakers?  Do you have Audyssey Dynamic EQ turned on?  How about dynamic volume--on or off? 

I think using the 5805 as an amp is avoiding the issue, and making your setup unnecessarily complicated.  The150W amps in the 4520 should be more than adequate to drive your speakers to deafening levels. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Well, now we see the problem. Audyssey is turned off. If you cycle through the choices, one of the choices should be "Audyssey". Select that. Now all the Audyssey options underneath should be available. And the overall output of the 4520 should be higher with Audyssey enabled.
If Audyssey is not one of the choices, then your calibration is bad and will need to be re-run.
. Correct now?
post #1814 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

. Correct now?

Yes. Did it make any difference in the output level? If nothing else, the sound should sound very different (and improved) with Audyssey engaged.
post #1815 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Yes. Did it make any difference in the output level? If nothing else, the sound should sound very different (and improved) with Audyssey engaged.
Yes, side and back rears are much louder... Fronts and center seem to be over matched by rears?????
post #1816 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

Yes, side and back rears are much louder... Fronts and center seem to be over matched by rears?????

 

OK, next step is go back into the Audyssey menu to a setting under Dynamic EQ, called "reference level offset".  RLO can be set to 0, 5, 10, or 15.  As you increase the value, the effect that DEQ is applying is reduced, which affects the level of the surround speakers.  Experiment with this setting to see if you can achieve a more pleasant blend of the surrounds.

post #1817 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

OK, next step is go back into the Audyssey menu to a setting under Dynamic EQ, called "reference level offset".  RLO can be set to 0, 5, 10, or 15.  As you increase the value, the effect that DEQ is applying is reduced, which affects the level of the surround speakers.  Experiment with this setting to see if you can achieve a more pleasant blend of the surrounds.
Understood... But what I don't understand is why the master volume has to be so high to get the desired volume level. Before I made these recent adjustments with Audyssey, the master volume level could be at - 35, but now for the same volume level, it must be -20 on the master volume knob. I really appreciate you help.
post #1818 of 7829
FWIW, my default MV setting for all inputs is -20. I increase it on some programming as far as -10. A setting of -35 on my system would be pretty quiet.

So, what you are experiencing is not very different from what I am seeing. Why a MV setting of -35 was acceptable on your previous AVR is a mystery. One would think that properly-calibrated Audyssey systems would have similar results.

I'm glad to see you are making progress!
post #1819 of 7829
T
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

FWIW, my default MV setting for all inputs is -20. I increase it on some programming as far as -10. A setting of -35 on my system would be pretty quiet.
So, what you are experiencing is not very different from what I am seeing. Why a MV setting of -35 was acceptable on your previous AVR is a mystery. One would think that properly-calibrated Audyssey systems would have similar results.
I'm glad to see you are making progress!
Thank you very much for your assistance.
post #1820 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

Understood... But what I don't understand is why the master volume has to be so high to get the desired volume level. Before I made these recent adjustments with Audyssey, the master volume level could be at - 35, but now for the same volume level, it must be -20 on the master volume knob. I really appreciate you help.

The 5805 doesn't feature Dyn EQ as does the 4520CI which sets "reference" volume to 0db. This accounts for the higher master volume setting.
post #1821 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 5805 doesn't feature Dyn EQ as does the 4520CI which sets "reference" volume to 0db. This accounts for the higher master volume setting.
Thanks. That makes sense.
post #1822 of 7829
Randy;
We had a Matrix bluray 11.1 marathon last night, glad AustinJerry helped you.
A picture is worth a thousand words at times, learning all the sub menus takes some time, I'm still learning mine.

Regarding 11.1, wow I've watched/heard the Matrix trilogy countless times.
Last night was a whole new audio experience, watched them in full DSX height/wide mode.
I did not do any A vs B compare to PL IIz or NEOx (ironic mode for this movie), it was family movie night.
However subjective words like 3D enveloping come to mind.

Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk
Edited by mtbdudex - 12/23/12 at 1:31am
post #1823 of 7829
Denon 5805 > 4520CI, with 3 subwoofers

I've searched, but not seen anything on this topic, so I'm hoping someone here might have had the same problem as me, OR, will simply know how this should be done in "4520 speak".

My 5805 was great, but its HDMI (1.1) technology was ancient, so I thought that I'd checked out the 4520 specs, and that this would be the time to upgrade. What I seem to have missed (in features) relates to my subs.

I'm not sure if this 5805 feature was common thru the Denon line, or a one-off for the 5805, but the 5805 allowed me to specify that I had three subwoofers. There were two variant setting, but in my setup, I had the standard (media derived) LFE, plus a Front and Back subwoofer. The relevant features of this setup were:
1) Along with the existing Preout Subw connector, the other two subs were assigned to two other specific Preout connectors (with crossover applied, as I understand it);
2) The Subw content was discrete, i.e. the LFE channel from the media itself; the Front Subw channel content derived from a mix of the activity in the two Front channels; and the Back Subw channel content derived from a mix of the activity in the two Surround back channels;
3) And lastly (and just as important), the Audio Level display didn't simply present the standard speakers for adjustment, but also presented all three of these Subw channels, so that all three Preout connections were metered like any other "speaker".

So.... I've diddled around in the 4520 until I'm blue in the face, and am probably just being stupid, and missing something obvious (maybe in the Custom Amp settings?), but I am not seeing anything that seems to resemble the feature that will allow me to feed three discrete subwoofers, and adjust them in the same manner that the 5805 offered.

I should also say that I do _not_ do this for a living. My initial goal was simply to get "close" to what I had in place before (relative to cabling/configuration), and then deal with the formal calibration process to get things fully tweaked back to where they were with the 5805. I believe that I've succeeded in that regard, with the exception of feeding my two additional Rel subs.

THANKS for any thoughts/input/guidance. I really appreciate the help.
post #1824 of 7829
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serenity View Post

Denon 5805 > 4520CI, with 3 subwoofers
I've searched, but not seen anything on this topic, so I'm hoping someone here might have had the same problem as me, OR, will simply know how this should be done in "4520 speak".
My 5805 was great, but its HDMI (1.1) technology was ancient, so I thought that I'd checked out the 4520 specs, and that this would be the time to upgrade. What I seem to have missed (in features) relates to my subs.
I'm not sure if this 5805 feature was common thru the Denon line, or a one-off for the 5805, but the 5805 allowed me to specify that I had three subwoofers. There were two variant setting, but in my setup, I had the standard (media derived) LFE, plus a Front and Back subwoofer. The relevant features of this setup were:
1) Along with the existing Preout Subw connector, the other two subs were assigned to two other specific Preout connectors (with crossover applied, as I understand it);
2) The Subw content was discrete, i.e. the LFE channel from the media itself; the Front Subw channel content derived from a mix of the activity in the two Front channels; and the Back Subw channel content derived from a mix of the activity in the two Surround back channels;
3) And lastly (and just as important), the Audio Level display didn't simply present the standard speakers for adjustment, but also presented all three of these Subw channels, so that all three Preout connections were metered like any other "speaker".
So.... I've diddled around in the 4520 until I'm blue in the face, and am probably just being stupid, and missing something obvious (maybe in the Custom Amp settings?), but I am not seeing anything that seems to resemble the feature that will allow me to feed three discrete subwoofers, and adjust them in the same manner that the 5805 offered.
I should also say that I do _not_ do this for a living. My initial goal was simply to get "close" to what I had in place before (relative to cabling/configuration), and then deal with the formal calibration process to get things fully tweaked back to where they were with the 5805. I believe that I've succeeded in that regard, with the exception of feeding my two additional Rel subs.
THANKS for any thoughts/input/guidance. I really appreciate the help.
I too am coming from a 5805, but I have 8 subs. I am finding that I am not getting the same output from the 4520ci, even after running Audyssey. SQ is better than the 5805, but overall output is noticeably less. I am only using 1 sub out from the 4520ci. Please let me know if you notice the same output difference between the two AVR's.
post #1825 of 7829
@ Serenity -

What you are describing is unique to that upper level model (series?) and not currently featured on a 4XXX or lower level model. Also the same LFE signal is applied to both pre-outs. The Sub EQ HT feature on the 4520 will however, separately volume level each sub such that you do want to use both sub pre-outs for that feature, ideally setting the 2 subs connected to one pre-out equidistant from the main listening position if possible.
post #1826 of 7829
I don't know your old Denon but am familiar with the Auudyssey SubEQ on the 8801 by way of my trusty 4311 (Ok, not worthy, not worthy), but still here goes.

The AV8801 has the full featured true dual sub Audyssey Sub EQ system. You have really two seperate Sub channels and only two. This means you could stick two subs in a daisy chain configuration and one sub elese where or 2 +2 or 4 + 4 if you will, but in reality you only have 2 channels. When you EQ your system, Audyssey will do an initial test of sub volume leveling. You are asked to get the two subs within +- 5 db of 75 (my 4311). If you have multiple subs connected to each of the two sub outputs, you would have to manually level the pair and then attempt to Audyssey EQ. Oh, first you have to tell Audyssey you have two subs. Forgot that. Once you have done the initial level matching via Audyssey, the system will then ping the subs in combination. With the 8801 you should achieve far better SubEQ results.

Now, your next issue is assigning what the 8801 processes and how. Meaning LFE or LFE + Mains. There is a ridiculous amount of information regarding this subject on the 4311 thread and you can learn much there. I am guessing the old Denon you have does not have near the true SubEQ capabilities of the 8801. Case in point. Audyssey SubEQ could care less physically where your sub is or by even giving you the option of "rear room sub". It is doing a true sub EQ check. You should read up on the SubEQ section. It is quite informative.

I am far from an engineer though but I would guess if you have 7 subs throughout your space, it would struggle to make sense of EQing. So, my non tech answer is to make some type of Sub Array with muliple subs. Front Bank/Back Bank, Left Bank/Right Bank - whatever. I have two opposite corner small subs and am happy, I would be happier still though with bigger subs and probably 4 to boot. biggrin.gif

One last note. Many, many peope have noticed correctly EQing via XT32 can dissapoint people in regards to SubEQ volume. This is simply because most people over do it by a near a exponential factor when setting their sub levels. Good luck. I am jealous of the new toys everyone is getting.
Edited by SeattleHTGuy - 12/23/12 at 2:46pm
post #1827 of 7829
8801? confused.gif
post #1828 of 7829
My Bad. Marantz AV8801 or Denon 4520. Same thing though.
post #1829 of 7829
Yeh ... just ribbing. tongue.gif
post #1830 of 7829

I just realized something that may be obvious to everyone else, but it wasn't to me.  In the instructions for performing a network save, the recommendation is to set the AVR to "Network Off in Standby" before attempting the save.  I have been leaving that setting unchanged to facillitate successful saves.

 

Now I realize that this turns of the four-port hub in the AVR when it is in standby.  My two DirecTV DVR's use the hub, so unless I have the AVR set to "Network always on", the DVR's are removed from the network every time I power off the 4520.  This is not desirable, so I have made a note to myself to always change the network setting back to "Always on" after doing a save.

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