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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 82

post #2431 of 4521
1/26/13 at 4:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingvfreak View Post

Well I got the Outlaw 7100 hooked up and turned the 4520 into a prepro, I must say the Power Amp is noticeably different, It is more Punchier , Cleaner and crisp! as far as power I would say this 100x7 is giving the internal amps 150 x9 a run for the Money! Im gonna leave it as a pre pro set up for now to get my ears used to it . I may look for a better 5 channel at least 125-150 Watts and drive my main 5 and use the Internals for the S Backs and Heights! Either way this 4520 Smokes my AV7005!
IMAG2455.jpg 748k .jpg file

Its because the Outlaw is rated for all speakers driven at once. If I didn't have Emotiva amps I'd get myself an Outlaw.

 

The Outlaw amps are a fair bit more expensive than the Emotiva amps IIRC, so that would sway it for me, amps being amps an'all.

 

You guys are lucky to have the choice - you know, here in England, there is nothing that is remotely the equivalent of Emotiva or Outlaw (hence my importing my 4 Emo amps). Here, if you want big, powerful, external amps, you have to spend a fortune on 'audiophile' brands.

 

EDIT: I just checked - the Emotiva XPA-5 (5 x 200 watts) is $899. The Outlaw 7500 (5 x 200 watts) is $1,599. 

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post #2432 of 4521
1/26/13 at 4:14am
Yes, that's why I didn't get an Outlaw. The Outlaw's have a beefier power supply though. They never seem to have much of a sale on amps. If I could've afforded an Outlaw I might've gotten one though. Yes we are fortunate that there is a choice here in the states. And yes, an amp is an amp as long as run within it's limits.
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post #2433 of 4521
1/26/13 at 4:51am
Anyone found the German review that has been mentioned? Supposedly they tested the 4520 and it only put out 35 watts per channel - 7 channels driven. Sure would explain why people are saying that adding an external amp makes quite a difference. I have searched for this review but can't find it. It supposedly compared the Elite SC-68, Denon AVR-4520 and an Onkyo.
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post #2434 of 4521
1/26/13 at 4:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Anyone found the German review that has been mentioned? Supposedly they tested the 4520 and it only put out 35 watts per channel - 7 channels driven. Sure would explain why people are saying that adding an external amp makes quite a difference. I have searched for this review but can't find it. It supposedly compared the Elite SC-68, Denon AVR-4520 and an Onkyo.

It explains why the 4520 is lighter than it's predecessor. Doesn't matter to me as I use it strictly as a pre-amp.
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post #2435 of 4521
1/26/13 at 5:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK View Post

Anyone found the German review that has been mentioned? Supposedly they tested the 4520 and it only put out 35 watts per channel - 7 channels driven. Sure would explain why people are saying that adding an external amp makes quite a difference. I have searched for this review but can't find it. It supposedly compared the Elite SC-68, Denon AVR-4520 and an Onkyo.

It explains why the 4520 is lighter than it's predecessor. Doesn't matter to me as I use it strictly as a pre-amp.

35 watts seems extraordinarily low, even with all channels driven, considering the spec. I'd like to read the review if anyone ever happens across it.  Lighter would always concern me, unless they changed design to a Class D or something (which they didn't AFAIK). I am always amazed how light my 2ch Crown Pro amp is, given that it is rated at 1500 watts (bridged, 4 ohm).

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post #2436 of 4521
1/26/13 at 5:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

35 watts seems extraordinarily low, even with all channels driven, considering the spec. I'd like to read the review if anyone ever happens across it.  Lighter would always concern me, unless they changed design to a Class D or something (which they didn't AFAIK). I am always amazed how light my 2ch Crown Pro amp is, given that it is rated at 1500 watts (bridged, 4 ohm).

I'd like to see a translation too. I've forgotten my jr. high school german. I'm still planning to get a Crown amp to replace my Behringer which always starts up with a loud "pop." Have to wait though as I bought the 4520. It seems that the trend towards less powerful receivers is continuing, even with top of the line ones.
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post #2437 of 4521
1/26/13 at 6:27am
Here's the German review which actually refers to only 5 channels driven .... eek.gif


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post #2438 of 4521
1/26/13 at 8:02am
If this is true, then the 4520 throttles the current like the older 4810...
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post #2439 of 4521
1/26/13 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

35 watts seems extraordinarily low, even with all channels driven, considering the spec. I'd like to read the review if anyone ever happens across it.  Lighter would always concern me, unless they changed design to a Class D or something (which they didn't AFAIK). I am always amazed how light my 2ch Crown Pro amp is, given that it is rated at 1500 watts (bridged, 4 ohm).

I don't believe it either. Hometheater.com tested the Denon AVR-3312 last year and recorded 80wpc with 7 channels driven - everyone can check that one out as it's in English. If it was Yamaha I would believe it, for some reason they seem to do rather poorly in all channels driven tests. I wonder if he had the 4520 in 4 ohm mode - perhaps there's some sort of limiter that cripples power driving 4 ohms? Personally, I'm not sure what I'm looking at during the video as I can't read the meters.
Edited by EVT - 1/26/13 at 8:28am
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post #2440 of 4521
1/26/13 at 8:16am
Will wait for an British / American review that I can read and understand before passing judgement. I have an XPA-3 so would only use the receiver power for the 4 surrounds but still 35 watts would not make me happy. This just can't be right. Not trying to be a critic, just want to verify the capabilities before I make a purchase.
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post #2441 of 4521
1/26/13 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

35 watts seems extraordinarily low, even with all channels driven, considering the spec. I'd like to read the review if anyone ever happens across it.  Lighter would always concern me, unless they changed design to a Class D or something (which they didn't AFAIK). I am always amazed how light my 2ch Crown Pro amp is, given that it is rated at 1500 watts (bridged, 4 ohm).

I don't believe it either. Hometheater.com tested the Denon AVR-3312 last year and recorded 80wpc with 7 channels driven - everyone can check that one out as it's in English. If it was Yamaha I would believe it, for some reason they seem to do rather poorly in all channels driven tests. I wonder if he had the 4520 in 4 ohm mode - perhaps there's some sort of limiter that cripples power driving 4 ohms?

80 wpc is more typical of the 'flagship' AVRs when all channels are driven. The big Onkyos measure similarly, so that is the sort of ballpark I'd expect the 4250 to be in. Need to see a couple more independent tests...

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post #2442 of 4521
1/26/13 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

80 wpc is more typical of the 'flagship' AVRs when all channels are driven. The big Onkyos measure similarly, so that is the sort of ballpark I'd expect the 4250 to be in. Need to see a couple more independent tests...

80 and possibly more, Home Theater tested the Onkyo 3010 and recorded over 110 with 7 channels driven. They have not tested the 4311 but if I recall correctly even the 4310 managed more than 100wpc with 7 channels driven so something doesn't seem right. Then again, you never know, the 4810 seemed to limit current with 7 channels driven and even the Onkyo 5008 didn't put out very impressive numbers with 7 channels driven despite tipping the scales at over 50 pounds so I guess you can't take prior year results as any guarantee for the current model.

In any case, although I just got the 4520 set up late last night I was already more than happy with the power of the 3313 even at reference volume so I'm not concerned in the least with bench test results. Now I'm only pushing 7 channels so maybe when I decide to incorporate some heights I'll pick up a 2 channel Emotiva for the fronts. For now all is well as it is.
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post #2443 of 4521
1/26/13 at 9:58am

I sort of wish I had gotten off the fence on the Emotiva XPA-3 over the holidays when they went on sale for $100 off.  I kept vacillating and now they are back to full price ($699). 

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post #2444 of 4521
1/26/13 at 10:50am

My trusty 4308CI supports 3 powered zones for a total of up to 7 powered channels: Main, Zone 2 and Zone 3. The Main Zone can support up to 7 powers channels. Zone 2 and Zone 3 are each stereo, i.e. 2 channels. The way it works is that with only the Main Zone on, the 7 Main Zone speakers are powered. For each additional zone that is tuned on, 2 speakers of the Main get correspondingly switched off. So with Main and Zone 2 (or 3) on, I get 5 in Main and 2 in Zone 2 (or 3). Adding the third Zone, leaves me with only 3 channels in Main, i.e. 3 + 2 + 2. Turning Zone 2 or 3 off adds the corresponding amount of channels back to the Main Zone. I can do all this without physically switching cables or making changes in the settings menu. It's a simple power on/off of the desired Zone.

 

I am trying to find out if a 4520CI can do the same. I would expect it does, actually since it has from what I understand 9 powered channels, it should still leave 5 powered channels for Main, even if Zone 2 and 3 are running with 2 channels each. I have studied the manual and briefly checked on an actual unit. However, it appears it would require changing the physical connections and/or diving into the settings to make such a change. Since I doubt that this is the case, I must be something missing. I would be grateful if someone could confirm and could share the exact settings needed to accomplish this.

 

Thanks!

 

____

Axel

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post #2445 of 4521
1/26/13 at 11:51am
With all this watts per channel talk, I wonder how the 4520 measures up to the 4311.
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post #2446 of 4521
1/26/13 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

Now I'm only pushing 7 channels so maybe when I decide to incorporate some heights I'll pick up a 2 channel Emotiva for the fronts. For now all is well as it is.

I would not get a 2 channel amp just for the L/Rs. The center needs as much, if not more, power as the L/Rs.
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post #2447 of 4521
1/26/13 at 12:14pm
Apparently not to well. If these multichannel power stats prove to be true, I will be very disappointed. I,ve had my 4520 for about a month now and have certainly not found the unit to be underpowered, however I am only running 5.2 at the moment, plan to run 9.2 when my son graduates and gets his drumset and weights ou of my rec room. I had not planned on needing a multi channel amp so hopefully the German test is not accurate, if so amp makers will be high fiveing each other.
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post #2448 of 4521
1/26/13 at 12:42pm
I just can't believe this, unless they were running this test at 16 ohms, then maybe. These amps were rated at 150 w for 8 ohms and that has some meaning. Having gone from one to another over the years, (started with Marantz in the 80's) high power receivers seem to have gotten more powerful in my actual experience. Even if the wattage ratings have all been a sham (and typically they are unless you get the actual printout of the tested rms wattage of your unit which is generally higher than the wattage rating in my experience) at least this has been a consistent sham perpetrated for many years and we are all used to it by now. All I know is that I can turn it up in my living room with great SQ at even high volumes and it has the capability to produce plenty more power than I need and then some.
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post #2449 of 4521
1/26/13 at 12:53pm
Another point is that these amps are rated to handle 4ohms also, which does imply that they have to use some pretty decent power supplies to achieve this ability, which makes me even more suspicious of this claim.
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post #2450 of 4521
1/26/13 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

I just can't believe this, unless they were running this test at 16 ohms, then maybe. These amps were rated at 150 w for 8 ohms and that has some meaning. Having gone from one to another over the years, (started with Marantz in the 80's) high power receivers seem to have gotten more powerful in my actual experience.

I respectively disagree about "high powered receivers" getting more powerful. Generally manufacturers rate with two channels driven, not 5.1 as in the review. Whether the review is accurate or not I cannot judge. It will be a good thing if you are correct though.
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post #2451 of 4521
1/26/13 at 1:23pm
I thought these were discrete equal power channels why should running more make that much difference? Also my Marantz was a tube amp and they have a rich soundfield but never played well loud. Then there were the early solid states that were really loud but sort of harsh. I guess if you look at the last 10 years then we have definitely witnessed a steep decline in power though. I think it's driven by a majority of customers that require features more than audio. I think the consumers let the manufacturers get away with it by accepting bad audio as a trade off for seeing the big blue TrueHD symbol lit up. I am glad you are concerned and questioning these things, it's up to all of us who need good sound in our lives to hold these manufacturers to some audio standard. If we don't then we will all be forced to go broke on audiophile grade equipment to achieve an acceptable sq..
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post #2452 of 4521
1/26/13 at 1:32pm
In general, I agree with Theresa.

the specs are looser, instead of 20-20K rms type ratings, we increasingly see watts @1Khz and even higher THD, 0.5 & 1% THD is not uncommon.

Plus, instead of 5 & 7 channels, we have 9 channels! power supplies are not getting bigger, so when more channels come on line, under load, power/channel has to go down.

in general, top model receivers have general power ratings in the 140 -150 wpc range and that hasn't changed much in years.

the exceptions to this were the mighty Denon 5805, the 5308 and Pioneer's SC-09. the Denon 4520 & Pioneer SC-68 do hold up well but still cannot & do not compare in max power capability with multiple channels driven to those former flagship models. the SC-09 could maintain very close to 7 X 200 wc @ 8 ohms with a 1400 watt power supply & that's pushing 80-90% efficient class D amps, not the typically 50% efficient class A/B amps used by Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha & everyone else.

the power supplies in new models top out at 770-810 watts & with more channels there's no way they can equal what the top receivers only 5 years ago did.

this is from bench tests done by a German review site that's on YouTube. the video has a very loose & not good translation if you want to listen but I took several screenshots of his comparisons of the 4520, SC-LX86 (=SC-68) & Onkyo 5010. he ranks the 4520 #1 overall, but in raw tested power with multiple channels...it comes in #3. and that's due to smaller power supply. @2 ch & 8 ohm his test was 150 wpc. but @ 5 ch & 6 ohm, the 4520 sags to 35 wpc.

the real good news for Denon fans is that his bench measurements show their amps are "cleaner" than Pioneer's when pushed to clipping. and he rates the Denon as best in overall audio quality but Pioneer does win in 5 ch power.

from hollywoodzuhause review Pioneer Onkyo Denon.doc 1379k .doc file

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEnkJhDvmxg
Edited by ss9001 - 1/26/13 at 2:02pm
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post #2453 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

I thought these were discrete equal power channels why should running more make that much difference? Also my Marantz was a tube amp and they have a rich soundfield but never played well loud. Then there were the early solid states that were really loud but sort of harsh. I guess if you look at the last 10 years then we have definitely witnessed a steep decline in power though. I think it's driven by a majority of customers that require features more than audio. I think the consumers let the manufacturers get away with it by accepting bad audio as a trade off for seeing the big blue TrueHD symbol lit up. I am glad you are concerned and questioning these things, it's up to all of us who need good sound in our lives to hold these manufacturers to some audio standard. If we don't then we will all be forced to go broke on audiophile grade equipment to achieve an acceptable sq..

Home Cinema Choice did a bench test on the 4311CI with the following results ... 2CH @175W; 5CH @120W – 0.5% THD
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post #2454 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

My trusty 4308CI supports 3 powered zones for a total of up to 7 powered channels: Main, Zone 2 and Zone 3. The Main Zone can support up to 7 powers channels. Zone 2 and Zone 3 are each stereo, i.e. 2 channels. The way it works is that with only the Main Zone on, the 7 Main Zone speakers are powered. For each additional zone that is tuned on, 2 speakers of the Main get correspondingly switched off. So with Main and Zone 2 (or 3) on, I get 5 in Main and 2 in Zone 2 (or 3). Adding the third Zone, leaves me with only 3 channels in Main, i.e. 3 + 2 + 2. Turning Zone 2 or 3 off adds the corresponding amount of channels back to the Main Zone. I can do all this without physically switching cables or making changes in the settings menu. It's a simple power on/off of the desired Zone.

I am trying to find out if a 4520CI can do the same. I would expect it does, actually since it has from what I understand 9 powered channels, it should still leave 5 powered channels for Main, even if Zone 2 and 3 are running with 2 channels each. I have studied the manual and briefly checked on an actual unit. However, it appears it would require changing the physical connections and/or diving into the settings to make such a change. Since I doubt that this is the case, I must be something missing. I would be grateful if someone could confirm and could share the exact settings needed to accomplish this.

Thanks!

____
Axel

AFAIK, the 4308CI is the only model with that feature which was not carried forward on any newer models.
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post #2455 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Home Cinema Choice did a bench test on the 4311CI with the following results ... 2CH @175W; 5CH @120W – 0.5% THD

interesting...compared to the german sites' tests of the 4520
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post #2456 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:47pm
Well .. until someone who speaks German can listen to the whole review and provide a summary of what was actually done, It's hard to say what was actually tested, although as noted, an English review is required to better understand the testing process.
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post #2457 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:52pm
Thread Starter 
Before everyone freaks out remember the 4810ci had a similar result in the 7ch ACD test, and nobody was really concerned about power with that model. It's just a current limiter that gets tripped with this one specific test, probably to protect the power supply with a 9ch amp section; as others have noted lesser models like the Denon 33x and Marantz 700x easily clear 80w/ch with 7 channels driven. The 4310 and 4311 easily cleared 100w/ch; the 4520 is not going to be less powerful.

In "real world" situations I'm sure it has no problem putting out 100+ w/ch.
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post #2458 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

In general, I agree with Theresa.

the specs are looser, instead of 20-20K rms type ratings, we increasingly see watts @1Khz and even higher THD, 0.5 & 1% THD is not uncommon.

Plus, instead of 5 & 7 channels, we have 9 channels! power supplies are not getting bigger, so when more channels come on line, under load, power/channel has to go down.

in general, top model receivers have general power ratings in the 140 -150 wpc range and that hasn't changed much in years.

the exceptions to this were the mighty Denon 5805, the 5308 and Pioneer's SC-09. the Denon 4520 & Pioneer SC-68 do hold up well but still cannot & do not compare in max power capability with multiple channels driven to those former flagship models. the SC-09 could maintain very close to 7 X 200 wc @ 8 ohms with a 1400 watt power supply & that's pushing 80-90% efficient class D amps, not the typically 50% efficient class A/B amps used by Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha & everyone else.

the power supplies in new models top out at 770-810 watts & with more channels there's no way they can equal what the top receivers only 5 years ago did.

this is from bench tests done by a German review site that's on YouTube. the video has a very loose & not good translation if you want to listen but I took several screenshots of his comparisons of the 4520, SC-LX86 (=SC-68) & Onkyo 5010. he ranks the 4520 #1 overall, but in raw tested power with multiple channels...it comes in #3. and that's due to smaller power supply. @2 ch & 8 ohm his test was 150 wpc. but @ 5 ch & 6 ohm, the 4520 sags to 35 wpc.

the real good news for Denon fans is that his bench measurements show their amps are "cleaner" than Pioneer's when pushed to clipping. and he rates the Denon as best in overall audio quality but Pioneer does win in 5 ch power.

from hollywoodzuhause review Pioneer Onkyo Denon.doc 1379k .doc file

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEnkJhDvmxg


I can’t agree more with you. That’s why I’m weeping over my AVR-5803 which I had to replace with the 4520ci just for its modern bells and whistles.
I go by a simple rule when deciding how accurate the output ratings are: They cannot be more then the input. The power supply input that is; because one watt is equal to one watt and when you take into consideration the power loss in heat which is excessive in the 4520ci and, with the absence of high capacity capacitors in its power supply to store energy for time limited bursts, my guess is 70 watts max simultaneously is the answer based on 780W power input divided by 9 channels minus 20% loss for heat and processing.
The 12Amp power supply in the AVR-5803 is equivalent to 12A X120V = 1440 watts divided by its 7 channels equals about 205 watts minus not more than 10% in heat loss for its toroidal transformer, the answer would be about 185W for all its 7 channels simultaneously. Denon rated them 170W times 7 back then and that was very conservative. Not to mention those good old huge reserve capacitors.

On a side note, can anyone who owns the AVR 4520 tell me the 60Hz hum coming from the inside of the receiver is obvious to them the way I perceive it in mine when I get close enough to the receiver?

Thanks in advance…
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post #2459 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel View Post

My trusty 4308CI supports 3 powered zones for a total of up to 7 powered channels: Main, Zone 2 and Zone 3. The Main Zone can support up to 7 powers channels. Zone 2 and Zone 3 are each stereo, i.e. 2 channels. The way it works is that with only the Main Zone on, the 7 Main Zone speakers are powered. For each additional zone that is tuned on, 2 speakers of the Main get correspondingly switched off. So with Main and Zone 2 (or 3) on, I get 5 in Main and 2 in Zone 2 (or 3). Adding the third Zone, leaves me with only 3 channels in Main, i.e. 3 + 2 + 2. Turning Zone 2 or 3 off adds the corresponding amount of channels back to the Main Zone. I can do all this without physically switching cables or making changes in the settings menu. It's a simple power on/off of the desired Zone.

I am trying to find out if a 4520CI can do the same. I would expect it does, actually since it has from what I understand 9 powered channels, it should still leave 5 powered channels for Main, even if Zone 2 and 3 are running with 2 channels each. I have studied the manual and briefly checked on an actual unit. However, it appears it would require changing the physical connections and/or diving into the settings to make such a change. Since I doubt that this is the case, I must be something missing. I would be grateful if someone could confirm and could share the exact settings needed to accomplish this.

Thanks!

____
Axel

AFAIK, the 4308CI is the only model with that feature which was not carried forward on any newer models.

 

 

Thanks for the reply, jdsmoothie. Unfortunately, not what I wanted hear.

 

______

Axel

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post #2460 of 4521
1/26/13 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

On a side note, can anyone who owns the AVR 4520 tell me the 60Hz hum coming from the inside of the receiver is obvious to them the way I perceive it in mine when I get close enough to the receiver?

Thanks in advance…

No hum from mine.
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