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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 83

post #2461 of 7730
Thread Starter 
Just as another example the vaunted 55lb Onkyo 5008 with its toroidal transformer couldn't even top 80 watts with 5 channels driven, let alone 7. http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr5008-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

I wouldn't get too crazy about these ACD tests which aren't that representative of real world situations, nor would I expect monster amp sections in modern AVRs. If you REALLY need a lot of power them you should be looking at external amps.
post #2462 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

No hum from mine.

Thanks for the reply.
I mentioned earlier the hum I had could be heard from a distance but managed to cut it down by may be 90% by keeping the heat shield plate inside the unit clear of any obstructions.
Someone else mentioned having a similar issue with his/her unit as well.
My home theater is very quiet which makes my life a lot harder hearing hums and hisses…
post #2463 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Home Cinema Choice did a bench test on the 4311CI with the following results ... 2CH @175W; 5CH @120W – 0.5% THD

So They must have done this test at 4ohms since these run 0.5% at 4 and 0.05% at 8 ohms. Four ohms as you probably know can really draw the power and push the supply to its limits. I wonder about this test running 2 ch. vs. 5 ch. at 8ohms.
post #2464 of 7730
It was an 8-ohm test.
post #2465 of 7730
Was that their THD value for 8ohms? I like to think it is .05% as advertised. I think these results aside from THD seem reasonable enough I could live with something close to this if thats what we can expect from the 4520.
post #2466 of 7730
post #2467 of 7730
Note 0.5% at well above their rated power... This is much ado about nothing.
post #2468 of 7730
Hello Guys

I spent pretty much all day yesterday programing the new Oppo 103 and 4520 into my MX-700 Remote. Turned out very nice everything is "in it". All the macros switch back to where they belong on start-up no-matter where they were previosly, Had to learn just about the entire thing as no codes were available. Had a little trouble getting the left/right/up/down/FF/REW/Select to jog on the OPPO .I finally got it ,then it would not work on my Time Warner 8300 HD. And it would NOT re-learn the previous codes. I ended up deleting the entire button and then exporting the entire file from a saved copy that I had from a couple years back(on the 8300). It all works perfect now. I set the macros up to not include the Oppo on start-up as I don't use it nearly as much as the rest of the system. Although when you do turn it on , it goes ahead and changes inputs on the TV so the Set up/Home screen comes up,and of course the Amp switches to Blu-Ray, automatically. So far, I am not that impressed with the sound quality of this thing on music( Denon). It just does not have the Impact of my old 7500 Marantz( it was 105 Watts). I love the Movies/Voices/ Separating of speakers/ , just not on music.I will keep playing with it. But it acts to me like its down on power. I still have not figured out how to get the 2nd Zone to work. I read where it has to be hooked up to Analog to work the Zones, but I'm thinking the Oppo does not have Anolog Out other than the 5 or 7 pre-outs. Do you use the Left and Right fuctions of these? And where do they hook up on the Denon. I will do a little more experimenting today, as I have not set down to study this in depth yet. ....Jeff
post #2469 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I sort of wish I had gotten off the fence on the Emotiva XPA-3 over the holidays when they went on sale for $100 off.  I kept vacillating and now they are back to full price ($699). 

 

They'll soon be having another sale - they have them all the time.

post #2470 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Just as another example the vaunted 55lb Onkyo 5008 with its toroidal transformer couldn't even top 80 watts with 5 channels driven, let alone 7. http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr5008-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

I wouldn't get too crazy about these ACD tests which aren't that representative of real world situations, nor would I expect monster amp sections in modern AVRs. If you REALLY need a lot of power them you should be looking at external amps.

Yes, that test ran the Onkyo in current limiting mode, hence the lower power figures. As you say, often the tests are unreliable and/or prove very little when compared with real world listening.

post #2471 of 7730
Thread Starter 
I just think it's a big fuss about nothing. It's a known fact that pretty much any modern receiver will easily meet its rated power with any one or two channels driven (and in the case of higher end units like that Onkyo or Denon 4xxx they will actually far exceed it) but it's equally known that pretty much no modern receiver has the power supply to sustain that kind of current with all channels driven.
post #2472 of 7730
Just out of curiosity, this is what denon 4520ci manual on page two column 3 says.

" With a discrete-circuit configuration, the power amplifier provides identical quality for all 9 channels (190 W x 9ch) The unit is equipped with a power amplifier that reproduces high- fidelity sound in sound mode with equal quality and power for all channels, true to the original sound. The power amplifier circuit adopts a discrete-circuit configuration that achieves high-quality surround sound reproduction".

Can any one help me understanding this? Sorry only been in this field for 3 months now, LoL.

Thank you in advance.

Regards
post #2473 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatRocky View Post

Just out of curiosity, this is what denon 4520ci manual on page two column 3 says.

" With a discrete-circuit configuration, the power amplifier provides identical quality for all 9 channels (190 W x 9ch) The unit is equipped with a power amplifier that reproduces high- fidelity sound in sound mode with equal quality and power for all channels, true to the original sound. The power amplifier circuit adopts a discrete-circuit configuration that achieves high-quality surround sound reproduction".

Can any one help me understanding this? Sorry only been in this field for 3 months now, LoL.

Thank you in advance.

Regards

I suppose the potentially misleading part is that they make no mention about equal power at the same time.
post #2474 of 7730
All this amplifier talk makes me want to test my Adcom 7707 and use the 4520 as a pre. My speakers are very efficient, so they don't need the power, but I'm curious about the sound quality difference. When I first installed the 4520, I noticed a considerable difference compared to my Outlaw990 and Adcom 7707. It's just a big pain since the adcom weights 78lbs. I suppose I should do it for curiosity sake.
post #2475 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

In general, I agree with Theresa.

the specs are looser, instead of 20-20K rms type ratings, we increasingly see watts @1Khz and even higher THD, 0.5 & 1% THD is not uncommon.

Plus, instead of 5 & 7 channels, we have 9 channels! power supplies are not getting bigger, so when more channels come on line, under load, power/channel has to go down.

in general, top model receivers have general power ratings in the 140 -150 wpc range and that hasn't changed much in years.

the exceptions to this were the mighty Denon 5805, the 5308 and Pioneer's SC-09. the Denon 4520 & Pioneer SC-68 do hold up well but still cannot & do not compare in max power capability with multiple channels driven to those former flagship models. the SC-09 could maintain very close to 7 X 200 wc @ 8 ohms with a 1400 watt power supply & that's pushing 80-90% efficient class D amps, not the typically 50% efficient class A/B amps used by Denon/Onkyo/Yamaha & everyone else.

the power supplies in new models top out at 770-810 watts & with more channels there's no way they can equal what the top receivers only 5 years ago did.

this is from bench tests done by a German review site that's on YouTube. the video has a very loose & not good translation if you want to listen but I took several screenshots of his comparisons of the 4520, SC-LX86 (=SC-68) & Onkyo 5010. he ranks the 4520 #1 overall, but in raw tested power with multiple channels...it comes in #3. and that's due to smaller power supply. @2 ch & 8 ohm his test was 150 wpc. but @ 5 ch & 6 ohm, the 4520 sags to 35 wpc.

the real good news for Denon fans is that his bench measurements show their amps are "cleaner" than Pioneer's when pushed to clipping. and he rates the Denon as best in overall audio quality but Pioneer does win in 5 ch power.

from hollywoodzuhause review Pioneer Onkyo Denon.doc 1379k .doc file

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEnkJhDvmxg


Given the translation issues, it's hard to figure out exactly what they tested. Their figures for the Onkyo 5010 are particularly interesting raising the possibility that they have different current limiting circuitry built into European models. Your attached chart shows 60wpc with 5 channels at 8 ohms and 30wpc with 5 channels at 4 ohms for the Onkyo - Home Theater tested the one step down Onkyo 3010 and did better than 110 wpc with 7 channels driven into 8 ohms.

It's also interesting that they do not show wpc with 5 channels driven into 8 ohms for the Denon so it's even harder to draw a reasonable comparison as they show only 6 and 4 ohm figures.

On the other hand, the Pioneer seems somewhat in line with the results Home Theater achieved with the SC-68 - the SC-68 did better in their tests with 2 channels driven and a bit lower with 5 channels.

In any case, hopefully we'll see something from Home Theater in the near future but judging by the strange results for the Onkyo 5010 I wouldn't treat this lab test as the last word on the performance of these AVRs. One thing that was obvious to me based on this review was that the Pioneer and Denon are clearly better looking than the Onkyo.biggrin.gif
post #2476 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post

Hello Guys
. I still have not figured out how to get the 2nd Zone to work. I read where it has to be hooked up to Analog to work the Zones, but I'm thinking the Oppo does not have Anolog Out other than the 5 or 7 pre-outs. Do you use the Left and Right fuctions of these? And where do they hook up on the Denon. I will do a little more experimenting today, as I have not set down to study this in depth yet. ....Jeff

I think this is how i got it hooked up my bdp-105 and i think 103 has same out puts.
Oppo two channel out to cd in (i think it called analog 5 for denon input-assign settings)
Then input source select, activate analog 5 port for cd in-put.
For 7.1 channels output from oppo to 7.1 external in for denon, i think you have to select external-in in the settings-->inputs--> input mode.
Please correct me if i am wrong?
post #2477 of 7730
I have a suggestion for the power hungry.
DENON’s AVR-5803 is selling for as little as $350 on eBay because it’s outdated. It can however be used as 7 channel amp since it got two sets of EXT in that can be switched into pure direct. As I mentioned above, this receiver has splendid clean power with lots of reserve. With the 4520ci pre- amp versatility, you may use 6 of the 5803 amps to bi amp the 3 main front speakers and the rest of the speakers can be bi-amped the same way from the 4520…
post #2478 of 7730
My receiver is behind the wall and i am looking for IR extender cable. Has any one successfully used any? Do you have any part number? Or where to get from?
I dont wanna use harmony. I like the included remote with 4510ci.
Thanks in advance.
Kris
post #2479 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatRocky View Post

I think this is how i got it hooked up my bdp-105 and i think 103 has same out puts.
Oppo two channel out to cd in (i think it called analog 5 for denon input-assign settings)
Then input source select, activate analog 5 port for cd in-put.
For 7.1 channels output from oppo to 7.1 external in for denon, i think you have to select external-in in the settings-->inputs--> input mode.
Please correct me if i am wrong?[/quote

Thanks for trying to help,But it does not work...I hooked-up the 2 analog's out of the Oppo,went to CD and checked the input settings on the Denon,making sure it was set to #5 for the CD.(It was already on #5.) No dice. I'm assuming you meant for me to switch it to CD funtion on the Denon ,but all it does is buzz a little. In Blu ray it made no difference.............................................................................................................................
You know ,considering you have to put this thing in All Mode Stereo, along with Analog only signal,and all the trouble it is to hook this equipment up and get the Zones to work,I'm believing that someone at Denon in the engineering department did not do their homework. Why cant the HDMI cables apply the signal to the Zones? Whats with that crap?...And there is absolutly no sense in turning a Zone on being this difficult......Period. With my old Marantz you just pushed a button,no silly hookups, no strict settings ,you just pushed the button and it played. Strike 3 as far as I'm concerned on this silly Zone game. Is their anybody at Denon that I could call and walk me through whatever I am doing wrong? Thanks for listening to me vent.

Edited by ss3740 - 1/27/13 at 12:39pm
post #2480 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

One thing that was obvious to me based on this review was that the Pioneer and Denon are clearly better looking than the Onkyo.biggrin.gif

lol
on that we agree completely! Onkyo certainly doesn't win awards for aesthetics wink.gif
post #2481 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

lol
on that we agree completely! Onkyo certainly doesn't win awards for aesthetics wink.gif

Agreed, Onkyo is ugly but I think Integra is uglier.
post #2482 of 7730
Beauty always lies in the eyes of the beholder.
I myself endorse the exceptional simplistic and clean face of the Onkyos.
Almost like "Bauhaus" architecture.
post #2483 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Beauty always lies in the eyes of the beholder.
I myself endorse the exceptional simplistic and clean face of the Onkyos.
Almost like "Bauhaus" architecture.
As you say, beauty lies in the the eyes of the beholder.
post #2484 of 7730
Onkyo is a beauty queen compared to Pioneers!!!
post #2485 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatRocky View Post

I think this is how i got it hooked up my bdp-105 and i think 103 has same out puts.
Oppo two channel out to cd in (i think it called analog 5 for denon input-assign settings)
Then input source select, activate analog 5 port for cd in-put.
For 7.1 channels output from oppo to 7.1 external in for denon, i think you have to select external-in in the settings-->inputs--> input mode.
Please correct me if i am wrong?[/quote

Thanks for trying to help,But it does not work...I hooked-up the 2 analog's out of the Oppo,went to CD and checked the input settings on the Denon,making sure it was set to #5 for the CD.(It was already on #5.) No dice. I'm assuming you meant for me to switch it to CD funtion on the Denon ,but all it does is buzz a little. In Blu ray it made no difference.............................................................................................................................
You know ,considering you have to put this thing in All Mode Stereo, along with Analog only signal,and all the trouble it is to hook this equipment up and get the Zones to work,I'm believing that someone at Denon in the engineering department did not do their homework. Why cant the HDMI cables apply the signal to the Zones? Whats with that crap?...And there is absolutly no sense in turning a Zone on being this difficult......Period. With my old Marantz you just pushed a button,no silly hookups, no strict settings ,you just pushed the button and it played. Strike 3 as far as I'm concerned on this silly Zone game. Is their anybody at Denon that I could call and walk me through whatever I am doing wrong? Thanks for listening to me vent.

This how my setup is and it works just fine. .
Cable box----> oppo hdmi back--->> oppo hdmi 1 out --> denon catv in plus from oppo 7.1 analog to denon 7.1 analog in.

In denon. 5.1 plus zones 2 and 3 selected under setup.

I switch between hdmi in and external-in in the denon settings to compare both audio. I think the kewy here is that oppo is behind denon in the signal row to the display. At one point i had oppo ahead of the denon and audio didnt work for cable tv signal. But at the same times, oppo ahead of the denon worked just fine as a bd player for playing dlna file playing through oppo and using bd-player in for denon.

Oppo sound quality is good but denon is good too for multi channels. They both have their own flavor. The issue i have with oppo analog sound is the bass management . One of these days when i have time i spend some time adjusting it in the oppo because denon dont want to get involve once it is fed through the analog in.
post #2486 of 7730
Decided to upgrade to the AVR-4520CI and I have not been disappointed with the purchase. I will post my full review when completed
with my Aperion decision. I have taken several photos with the AVR-4806 which has been my receiver since its purchase in 2005.











post #2487 of 7730
Nice pics! You can clearly see the quality difference in the 4806 (pre-recession) versus modern times. Even the power supplier is beefier and supports three 120W power inputs for devices. You rarely see that on any flagship AVRs these days. I will wager your 4520 is lighter as well.
post #2488 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

Anything louder than -20 and my wife starts yelling.biggrin.gif

I listen to most of my normal TV watching at -30....when it comes to movies I often listen at -5 to -10.
post #2489 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Two models that have both run Audyssey and set the "reference level" to 0db/80 would each have the same master volume settings regardless of their power rating.

What I find odd (compared to my old Onkyo) is that the Denon scaler runs from 0 - 98 with reference being 80 but on the Onkyo the scale was 0 - 100 with reference being 82.
post #2490 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Nice pics! You can clearly see the quality difference in the 4806 (pre-recession) versus modern times. Even the power supplier is beefier and supports three 120W power inputs for devices. You rarely see that on any flagship AVRs these days. I will wager your 4520 is lighter as well.

The 4520 is much lighter and smaller overall dimensionally. When looking on the insides the 4806 is absolutely stuffed with no space left anywhere. Everything is immense from the size of the transformer to the massive dissipating bars. When looking at the insides of 4520 the phrase comes to mind "where's the beef". The inside is extremely spartan with lots of open space. The the transformer looks anemic when compared to its older sibling if you were only judging by looks.

Edit: this post is satire
Edited by kromc5 - 1/28/13 at 3:12pm
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