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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 89

post #2641 of 7734
true
post #2642 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Who knows, he may have horn tweeters. I do know my system passes the "ear to the tweeter" test which even with slight hearing loss would reveal hiss. These components have close to a 100db signal to noise ratio so there should be no hiss.

 

Exactly. The system here is totally silent - which is exactly what I expect.

post #2643 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Selden,

I have some age-related HF hearing loss for sure.

Virtually all of us do after the age of 25 which is why the high school kids sometimes use the Mosquito Ring tone (17Khz) as their teachers cannot hear it any longer. smile.gif

 

:)  Cunning.  I actually witnessed (but could not hear) that 'youngster dispersion by irritating noise' technology some time ago. Both of my daughters (24) could hear it clearly but I was entirely oblivious to it. Apparently it drives teenagers nuts and they move on.  Clever idea. Folk music does the same to me LOL. 

post #2644 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

smile.gif  Cunning.  I actually witnessed (but could not hear) that 'youngster dispersion by irritating noise' technology some time ago. Both of my daughters (24) could hear it clearly but I was entirely oblivious to it. Apparently it drives teenagers nuts and they move on.  Clever idea. Folk music does the same to me LOL. 

LOL, I love folk music, to each their own. I used to belong to a folk music club that had concerts by prominent folk musicians. Part of my education into what live music really sounds like, same with having season tickets to the Orchestra for several seasons.
post #2645 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

smile.gif  Cunning.  I actually witnessed (but could not hear) that 'youngster dispersion by irritating noise' technology some time ago. Both of my daughters (24) could hear it clearly but I was entirely oblivious to it. Apparently it drives teenagers nuts and they move on.  Clever idea. Folk music does the same to me LOL. 

I do remember reading about the UK using the 17Khz tone as a teenager crowd dispersion tool a few years back now that you mention it. Clearly at our more "advanced" ages, many of us have even more loss at significantly lower frequency levels. smile.gif
post #2646 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

smile.gif  Cunning.  I actually witnessed (but could not hear) that 'youngster dispersion by irritating noise' technology some time ago. Both of my daughters (24) could hear it clearly but I was entirely oblivious to it. Apparently it drives teenagers nuts and they move on.  Clever idea. Folk music does the same to me LOL. 

LOL, I love folk music, to each their own. I used to belong to a folk music club that had concerts by prominent folk musicians. Part of my education into what live music really sounds like, same with having season tickets to the Orchestra for several seasons.

 

I do have fairly catholic tastes in music and regularly listen to jazz, blues, 60s soul, fusion, rock, some classical, opera (not whole ones - mainly soprano 'excerpts'), country (limited), reggae, etc.

 

I agree that folk has some great musicians and is terrifically 'live' sounding - it's the lyrics of most of the content that puts me off more than the actual music. As you say, each to their own and there is plenty of room for all of us.

post #2647 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

smile.gif  Cunning.  I actually witnessed (but could not hear) that 'youngster dispersion by irritating noise' technology some time ago. Both of my daughters (24) could hear it clearly but I was entirely oblivious to it. Apparently it drives teenagers nuts and they move on.  Clever idea. Folk music does the same to me LOL. 

I do remember reading about the UK using the 17Khz tone as a teenager crowd dispersion tool a few years back now that you mention it. Clearly at our more "advanced" ages, many of us have even more loss at significantly lower frequency levels. smile.gif

 

 

From the net:

 

"Music as torture is nothing new, of course. In December 1989, U.S. soldiers tried to drive noted opera buff Manuel Noriega out of the papal nunciature in Panama City with a high-decibel onslaught of Styx, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, and Lee Greenwood's ''God Bless the U.S.A.'' The plug was pulled after the Vatican complained."

 

I love that last sentence...

post #2648 of 7734
I find that rap, christian contemporary, and country have a similar effect on me.
Edited by Theresa - 2/2/13 at 6:28am
post #2649 of 7734
well, looks like I will be ordering today. Sold my 5508 yesterday!
post #2650 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


From the net:

"Music as torture is nothing new, of course. In December 1989, U.S. soldiers tried to drive noted opera buff Manuel Noriega out of the papal nunciature in Panama City with a high-decibel onslaught of Styx, Judas Priest, Black Sabbath, and Lee Greenwood's ''God Bless the U.S.A.'' The plug was pulled after the Vatican complained."


I love that last sentence...

I remember the news showing them blaring the Styx song Renegade; the lyrics were perfect!

"Oh mama, I'm in fear for my life from the long arm of the law
Lawman has put an end to my running and I'm so far from my home
Oh mama, I can hear your crying you're so scared and all alone
Hangman is coming down from the gallows and I don't have very long

The jig is up the news is out they've finally found me
The renegade who had it made retrieved for a bounty
Never more to go astray
This will be the end today of the wanted man"
post #2651 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

well, looks like I will be ordering today. Sold my 5508 yesterday!

I doubt you'll regret it. To me it is superior to the 5508 in many ways some would consider to be small but to me add up to a great improvement.
post #2652 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

well, looks like I will be ordering today. Sold my 5508 yesterday!

I doubt you'll regret it. To me it is superior to the 5508 in many ways some would consider to be small but to me add up to a great improvement.

 

Theresa, although I am totally happy with my 5509, I am always keen to increase my knowledge of what else is out there - would you list some of the ways you feel the 4520 is superior if you wouldn’t mind?  I like the look of the 4520 and am slowly coming around to thinking that a dedicated prepro is not really all that necessary when there are AVRs of this calibre that can function as a prepro, often at lower cost. I bought my 5509 because a) I had the external amps anyway and b) I wanted Audyssey Pro capability. At the time there was no Onkyo AVR that had Pro capability - now the 3310/5510 does which also makes it a viable alternative for me (but not for people in the US as the 3310/are not available there AFAIK).

 

If I was starting again from scratch, I wouldn't have external amplifiers at all - I would get the fully powered version of my MK S150s and hook them directly to the prepro. If I ever move house and get a room big enough for a PJ, I would go that route anyway, much as I like my Emo amps.

post #2653 of 7734
Oh dear, I'm not up to doing that today, I've done it before. They're all little things such as no more relay clicking. The sound seems slightly less colored if that's possible. There is no black level problem when streaming Netflix with a Roku as there was with the 5508. The ethernet switch allowed me to hook up more devices to my network. I just can't think of the others at the moment, perhaps later. I think I provided a list to Bootman a week or two ago.
If I were you I'd stick with 5509, the differences are not large ones.
Edited by Theresa - 2/2/13 at 9:23am
post #2654 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

The 2 disc WOW worth it then? My sync is set at 150 (by eye). And seems to be pretty good.

The WOW is definitely worth it especially if you can buy a cheaper used one.
It’s not just the audio but the video as well I like to make sure the black level is set properly and the colors are well balanced. That’s the best way to quit suspecting your system when watching a bad recording.
I think my OPPO-103 excels in video quality and I consider this part of my system a reference for judging video materials.

BTW. I use Epson Home Cinema 3020 projector on a 10foot Stewart Screen.
Edited by Joe6P - 2/2/13 at 9:27am
post #2655 of 7734
Keith, I can tell you from looking at the 125 page Denon manual for the 4520ci, there are little things I already love about it. The GUI looks absolutely better to me. The fact that it can be a pre pro or a all out AVR is nice. Turning the amp sections off to certain speakers etc.. is very nice also. Telling Audyssey before it runs which speakers you have hooked up seems like a nice touch.
post #2656 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Any modern system with that level of audible noise has a problem somewhere. Something is broken or not working to spec or there is some weird mismatch between components, but something is wrong. Occasionally, very, very sensitive speakers (101dB/w/m types for example - think some horn designs) can reveal some background hiss when the volume is maxed out on the AVR/amps and ears are placed close to the speakers - but normally you should not hear hiss 'through the room' or at the MLP at all. If you can, then you need to do some troubleshooting to try to discover the cause and the source. Same thing with hum. 

Did you try checking out the audio leak from the internet radio into other quiet sources?

I’m not surprised about this issue because I complained about it over 12 years ago and Denon rep acknowledge it with the excuse that the FM tuner is always active and suggested I should tune to a non broadcasting station before I select another source.

What surprises me though, the fact that no one else has noticed this issue with the 4520.
May I ask you folks to try it out? Tune in an active FM station or an Internet radio station; switch to non active source “DVD” or “Blu ray”, crank the volume to max and find out if you can hear the hiss/audio leak from the active radio.
Thanks!
post #2657 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I doubt you'll regret it. To me it is superior to the 5508 in many ways some would consider to be small but to me add up to a great improvement.

agreed!wink.gif
post #2658 of 7734
Bonjour Keith,
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Theresa, although I am totally happy with my 5509, I am always keen to increase my knowledge of what else is out there - would you list some of the ways you feel the 4520 is superior if you wouldn’t mind?  I like the look of the 4520 and am slowly coming around to thinking that a dedicated prepro is not really all that necessary when there are AVRs of this calibre that can function as a prepro, often at lower cost. I bought my 5509 because a) I had the external amps anyway and b) I wanted Audyssey Pro capability. At the time there was no Onkyo AVR that had Pro capability - now the 3310/5510 does which also makes it a viable alternative for me (but not for people in the US as the 3310/are not available there AFAIK).

If I was starting again from scratch, I wouldn't have external amplifiers at all - I would get the fully powered version of my MK S150s and hook them directly to the prepro. If I ever move house and get a room big enough for a PJ, I would go that route anyway, much as I like my Emo amps.

Even as an owner of a 11.x installation since more than 3 yrs now, "intellectually" I've always been a huge fan of... integrated processor-amps products. As I think that today's potential switching power supplies feeding internal amps can be largely adequate for a domestic use. But without the hassle generated by additional external (by definition) noisy connections.

But as no such product integrating 11 amps does exist today, in my case I was "obliged" to go the external amplification way. wink.gif

Now with the 4311 and 4520, I tried an 9 internal +2 external configuration (even though I had a 9 channels external amp), but in both cases (4311 + 4520) I reverted to an 7 fronts external + 4 rears internal amplification solution, with RCA connections.

Today with the 8801 I use 2* 9 channels external amps (2* Onkyo PA MC5500) with all XLR connections. And this is for the time being, what gives me (with an Audyssey Pro calibration) the sweetest sounding result I have ever had at home.

Now if Onkyo would have put on the market the hypothetical 5510, having a full 11.2 processing capability, I would have gone that way. But as this is not being the case, I think that the 8801 will remain at home - probably, if the DTS Neo X 11 bug is corrected -, longer than my personal usual use of such an evolutive type of product.

Bon WE,

Hugo
post #2659 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Did you try checking out the audio leak from the internet radio into other quiet sources?

I’m not surprised about this issue because I complained about it over 12 years ago and Denon rep acknowledge it with the excuse that the FM tuner is always active and suggested I should tune to a non broadcasting station before I select another source.

What surprises me though, the fact that no one else has noticed this issue with the 4520.
May I ask you folks to try it out? Tune in an active FM station or an Internet radio station; switch to non active source “DVD” or “Blu ray”, crank the volume to max and find out if you can hear the hiss/audio leak from the active radio.
Thanks!

If I cannot hear it with the volume turned up to normal/high listening levels with my ear pressed to the speaker then it doesn't matter. Under these circumstances I hear no leakage. I think you are perhaps obsessing and even imagining noise that isn't present.
post #2660 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I think you are perhaps obsessing and even imagining noise that isn't present.
Some call it Relentless Pursuit of Perfection.
Others call it Passionate Pursuit of Perfection
It’s a Journey. Never a Destination…
Some like. Others don’t;)
post #2661 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post


Did you try checking out the audio leak from the internet radio into other quiet sources?

I’m not surprised about this issue because I complained about it over 12 years ago and Denon rep acknowledge it with the excuse that the FM tuner is always active and suggested I should tune to a non broadcasting station before I select another source.

What surprises me though, the fact that no one else has noticed this issue with the 4520.
May I ask you folks to try it out? Tune in an active FM station or an Internet radio station; switch to non active source “DVD” or “Blu ray”, crank the volume to max and find out if you can hear the hiss/audio leak from the active radio.
Thanks!

 

I conducted the test exactly as you recommended.  With MV all the way up to zero, and my ear next to my tweeters, there is absolute dead silence.  You shouldn"t be surprised that no one else has noticed the "issue" because, quite frankly, it doesn't seem to be an issue for anyone else.  I think it is time for you to acknowledge that there may be something in your equipment or setup that is causing the problem, and stop discussing it here.

post #2662 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I think you are perhaps obsessing and even imagining noise that isn't present.
Some call it Relentless Pursuit of Perfection.
Others call it Passionate Pursuit of Perfection
It’s a Journey. Never a Destination…
Some like. Others don’t;)

 

Some call it "broken equipment".

post #2663 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I think it is time for you to acknowledge that there may be something in your equipment or setup that is causing the problem, and stop discussing it here.

Thanks for your time.
Can you recommend a place were people can go to discuss their equipments’ issues?
post #2664 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post


Did you try checking out the audio leak from the internet radio into other quiet sources?

I’m not surprised about this issue because I complained about it over 12 years ago and Denon rep acknowledge it with the excuse that the FM tuner is always active and suggested I should tune to a non broadcasting station before I select another source.

What surprises me though, the fact that no one else has noticed this issue with the 4520.
May I ask you folks to try it out? Tune in an active FM station or an Internet radio station; switch to non active source “DVD” or “Blu ray”, crank the volume to max and find out if you can hear the hiss/audio leak from the active radio.
Thanks!

 

I conducted the test exactly as you recommended.  With MV all the way up to zero, and my ear next to my tweeters, there is absolute dead silence.  You shouldn"t be surprised that no one else has noticed the "issue" because, quite frankly, it doesn't seem to be an issue for anyone else.  I think it is time for you to acknowledge that there may be something in your equipment or setup that is causing the problem, and stop discussing it here.

 

Absolute dead silence is exactly what I experience when I do the same thing as you - and it is exactly what I would expect from decent, modern equipment. Joe6P would employ his time better seeking the system or setup fault IMO.

post #2665 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

[/B]
Thanks for your time.
Can you recommend a place were people can go to discuss their equipments’ issues?

You can, of course, discuss your equipment issues here but you are either obsessing about something that is not there or have an issue with your equipment that others don't have. If the latter then you need to examine your setup more closely or get equipment that does not malfunction as yours currently does. I could take a stethoscope and listen to my power supply's hum, if there were any, but this would not help me enjoy my music and movies. I've gone through phases when I was very obsessive about noise but thankfully this passed. Just start listening to the music and tune out everything else.
post #2666 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

You can, of course, discuss your equipment issues here but you are either obsessing about something that is not there or have an issue with your equipment that others don't have. If the latter then you need to examine your setup more closely or get equipment that does not malfunction as yours currently does. I could take a stethoscope and listen to my power supply's hum, if there were any, but this would not help me enjoy my music and movies. I've gone through phases when I was very obsessive about noise but thankfully this passed. Just start listening to the music and tune out everything else.

Thank you for being reasonable with me.
I understand we all have different priorities nonetheless we shouldn’t be offended by others.
Allow me to share a true story with you…
Back when I was still watching SVHS tapes and laser discs on my 36’ “HD ready“ Toshiba TV, my good friend Mike who happened to be an EE for a major phone company, invested $12K in his first 42” plasma TV. He bragged so much about the “new” HD quality in his picture but for me it looked way below my expectations. My curiosity made me look behind that Plasma TV one day. I found all kinds of cables hooked to it including component, composite and S video. So I took the liberty pulling the one yellow composite cable and the picture stopped…
Needless to say, Mike is still my friend but we learned how to respect another’s priorities; He enjoys KoolAid I prefer good Cabernet…

Cheers Yo’ll
post #2667 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Did you try checking out the audio leak from the internet radio into other quiet sources?

I’m not surprised about this issue because I complained about it over 12 years ago and Denon rep acknowledge it with the excuse that the FM tuner is always active and suggested I should tune to a non broadcasting station before I select another source.

What surprises me though, the fact that no one else has noticed this issue with the 4520.
May I ask you folks to try it out? Tune in an active FM station or an Internet radio station; switch to non active source “DVD” or “Blu ray”, crank the volume to max and find out if you can hear the hiss/audio leak from the active radio.
Thanks!

Yes there is with internet radio on, and different source selected. The hiss gets pretty audible close to the speaker especially at 6.0 and above. The hiss is barely present at 0.0 but if you listened all the time at 0.0 dB with no source on it may get to you.
post #2668 of 7734
I am surprised just me and Joe6p are the only ones. It is really obvious to me (but I have been careful with my hearing mostly). I have a separate power circuit that only runs to my avr and HT equip. and another separate circuit that runs the pj. I have nothing else powered on, except my timewarner samsung DVR which is always on. So maybe it's the cable box, I can go check now and I just might since everyone is claiming complete silence.
post #2669 of 7734
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Absolute dead silence is exactly what I experience when I do the same thing as you - and it is exactly what I would expect from decent, modern equipment. Joe6P would employ his time better seeking the system or setup fault IMO.
I've got a 4311 at the moment, currently waiting for my 4520. I know its a different model, but I can hear hiss with the volume all the way up (+15). I can also faintly heard the HD radio bleed. This is even on a speaker that is only a few feet from the receiver as well as the farthest one. The 4311 is certainly modern, but mine hisses, too. At 0.0, its silent. No way has this ever affected my usage as its almost never over 0.0, and its usually playing something when it is. tongue.gif
post #2670 of 7734
Definitely not coming from any other source. I unplugged the rest of the equipment the entire circuit only powers the AVR and the hiss is still there plus the radio or internet radio doesn't need to be on for this hiss (and changing tuning does not help. I am perplexed but not very bothered by this, as I never listen to it that way. Besides some gain sound may be normal at these volumes; But if you did sit back with this thing cranked to max and just listened to an empty source channel you could go crazy.
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