The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 98

As you wish as far as cables, it's your money. If it provides sufficient volume than you won't need the amp. Personally my speakers are rather inefficient and I need the power my Emo amps provide.

They replaced the UPAx line some time ago with the somewhat more expensive UPAx00 line. Same might happen with other lines like XPA too. I could imagine a XPA-300 line or so...

Yes and the UPAX00 line has less power than the UPAx.

One would think I would hear a big diffrence 45W vs my D Sonic
Front R&L&C 1000w/4ohm Rears 500w/4ohm

Well, it sounds easy enough to try! I would be very interested in your thoughts as I really want to try the Denon out.

All you can do is compare the two. As I said, I find the 45 watt figure dubious.

I did compare but in 2 ch only and I used the same volume setting , I even had to drop the speaker level 1.5 db when using the 4520CI alone

I would not be afraid to buy the the 4520 either way if I was you , very nice and stable unit

I could not agree more about its merits as a prepro, One issue that I do not see mentioned very often is just how stellar the preamp stage is. I had been using Onkyo's (TX-SR805, TX-SR875, TX-NR3007, and TX-NR3008) for the past 5 years and I was shocked at just how much better my Aragon 8008bb sounds due to the Denon having ample voltage to drive the Aragon. While many amplifiers are designed with the expectation that an AVR will be used as the preamp and thus employ more gain, amplifiers like the Aragon are not.

I had grown so used to the clicking that it really is almost strange not to hear that anymore. Given the feature set and parts quality, I am surprised some view this to be a poor value proposition for use as a preamp.

Remember that the maximum power is only needed when playing loud soundtracks at the maximum sound level (e.g. for explosions). At normal listening levels, with reasonably efficient speakers in a medium sized room, only a few Watts are needed.

You also might want to pay attention to how the distortions in a particular amp vary with its power output. Some poor amp designs have significant distortion even at low levels, while quality amps don't start distorting noticeably until they are very close to clipping. The 4520 is the latter camp, of course.
Edited by Selden Ball - 2/15/13 at 6:49am

I just got off the phone with Denon and was told the 4520 has 9 discrete amplifiers 150w each @ 8ohm and the wattage is true . He also said if running in 4ohm this would double .

Again this is what I was told also Im sure the P/S comes into play

If that were the case, it would mean the Denon would be drawing 1350 watts. In theory, you do not want to exceed 80% of a 15amp outlet which comes out to 1440 watts. I am somewhat spurious of the 4520 being able to draw this much current and if so having a dedicated 20 Amp circuit would certainly be the way to go.

I take it you spoke to the marketing department. If you look closely they only promise 150w into 8 ohms with 2 channels driven. There is also no 4 ohm wattage specified - even top flight dedicated amplifiers have trouble doubling their power into 4 ohms so I would be pleasantly shocked if the 4520 was able to do that.

If you really want to know what the 4520 can do wattage wise the best guess at this point is to look at the reviews of the 4311 - if I recall correctly (the info is somewhere in this thread) and I'm just going from memory here but I think the 4311 did about 120wpc with 5 channels driven and about 100wpc with 7 channels driven into 8 ohms though I dont know if that's just at 1khz.

The 45wpc figure quoted above has to be incorrect as the 4520's little brother the 3313 (actually the 3313's twin the Marantz 7007) was tested at about 70wpc with 7 channels driven by Home Theater. Honestly, if you have 8 ohm speakers with a decent sensitivity level (86db and up) I would be shocked if you were disappointed by the 4520. It powers my 7 8 ohm speakers (89 - 91db sensitivity) without any issue in a 2,700 cubic foot room that has a large opening on one side. As an aside, I previously tried the Denon 3313 and it too had more than enough power in my room with these same speakers.

As happy as I am with my 4520 I think the Denon marketing department is likely to be more modest about their description of the unit's abilities than this review.

Yes the call started with customer service and I asked him to check with a higher up tier about this matter , I was put on hold and he told me he checked and was told 150w on all 9 ch since these are 9 seperate amps .

Again I understand it also depends if the psu can supply enough juice , I have my doubts about 150w just like I have my doubts even more about 45w .
Im going to get the rest of the speakers hooked up and do some listening and compare with or without amp .

This shows 190W at 6ohm so again Denon telling me the 150w doubles at 4ohm is not true




Edited by a1usedcomp - 2/15/13 at 8:16am

Precisely why I am avoiding Onkyo and heading in Denon waters. I read too many negative posts on their quality.

To paraphrase what the Denon rep said, each individual channel on its own will have no problems delivering the full rated per-channel power, since they all have exactly the same design. (Some receivers have been reported to have different amps in different channels.) I don't think anybody here is arguing with that. What people here are saying is that all of the channels can't all deliver all of that power at the same time, and are arguing about just how much that simultaneous power actually is.

Note that the power supply rating is required by various national and international electrical regulatory bodies. (Check the back of the device that you've purchased to see the logo of the relevant body in your region.) That rating is probably less than what the power supply can deliver under worst case load conditions. Hence people can only make guestimates as to the maximum power that a given receiver can actually deliver, and we have to depend on bench tests to measure what it actually is.

On sale this unit is typically around the $2K price range. With the exception of Marantz, Onkyo and Integra, I cannot name one competitor to have these features:

Audyssey XT32
DTS NEO X
32bit Burr Brown DACs

Especially for this price range. The Denon is a real bargain in comparison and the cheapest of all options.

I was on the original waiting list for the UMC-1. I spent months reading about it on the Lounge, reading the "what if" debates, reading the flaming comments about the competitors, reading how it would be the best device since sliced bread, etc. Boy am I glad that I waited. Within days there were numerous bug reports. The fanboys swear by it. The fact is, I have seen them sell new for $400. When my number came up I passed.

I spent some time researching the XMC-1. Over on the Lounge the same flaming comments and "what if" debates are still being talked about. I even read that EmoQ has been replaced with "TactX". The fanboys swear it will be better than the almighty Audyssey XT32. Funny thing is, TactX will be available AFTER the XMC-1 launches. What a joke. That's one of the reasons I don't bother on the Lounge anymore.

For the record, I have a very trusty XPA-3 and original UPA-7 (not 700), powering my system. I love their amps and believe Emo should focus on the amp business where they can dominate. The speaker/processor world is just too much to tackle for them.

I agree. Furthermore, I just do not think the Emotiva even belongs in the discussion. It simply lacks the necessary R&D and licencing of top tier technology such as Audyssey. The HDMI era has really made it all but impossible for boutique or niche sized AV companies to remain relevant.

Even a relatively large and greatly respected company like Arcam have spent untold millions designing and developing their FMJ AVR/SSP's and while the SQ is fantastic it has not been a smooth ride in respect to HDMI stability. To expect a company bringing to market a far less expensive SSP without the economies of scale afforded to brands like Denon/Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, Pioneer and The Harman Group is just not viable.

I’m aware of the UMC-1 flaws. UMC-200 is supposed to be a different beast according to Emotiva and every other report I read.
http://hometheaterreview.com/emotiva-umc-200-71-channel-av-preamp-reviewed/
I’m not holding my breath but willing to give it a try side by side with my AVR-4520ci processor since I have power amps available to try it on.
You know me by now I don’t tolerate mediocrity and I give my equipments plenty of torture before they pass my test. One thing I’m going to be looking for first- you might have guessed it, it’s that hiss from the speakers and/or any frequency vibration coming from the inside of the unit.

I’ll let you know how it works in a couple of weeks.

I also have the Denon DBT-3313UDCI.

I noticed there is a firmware update for the Denon DBT-3313UDCI Blu-ray player. I can't find any info on what it fixes.

I can only think of one torture test for Emotiva products

I just finished performing the firmware update, which proceeded normally.  However, upon inspection after the upgrade, the settings on the 4520 have reverted to the settings prior to my most recent calibration.  How can I tell?  It's actually quite simple.  Every time I calibrate the AVR, I take screenshots of the EQ graphs.  In my experience, each Audyssey calibration results in EQ graphs that look slightly different (or in same cases significantly different, depending on what changes were made).  Immediately after the firmware update, I looked at the EQ graphs, and they had reverted to the prior calibration.

 

I have reported this before, and no one seems to undertstand this behavior.  I report it again just to make sure everyone makes an effort to check to see if the firmward upgrade has caused a similar problem, and to re-emphasize the importance of saving your settings before doing the upgrade (which I always do).

Where can we read the list of the changes for every Denon firmware?
I hope it’s not classified.

So I just hooked up the 4520 last night and started a firmware update this morning. It is saying "connecting to server" and has for about and hour and a half now. What should I do?

 

Since the upgrade hasn't actually started, you can power off the AVR and try again.  Is it a wireless network connection?  If still unsuccessful, you might try a wired connection to rule out the wireless.  I am assuming that you tried "Check for Update", and it was successful in connecting to the server?

The internet radio worked fine so I assumed the connection was good to go. It is currently connected to a wired connection. All I have done so far is hit check for update and it say connecting to server (for the last two hours). I'll power it off and try again. Thank you for your input!

I can believe each individual amp may or may not deliver 150watt as long as the power supply is capable of handling the load. It’s a power supply limitation.
I mentioned earlier how I stopped wasting my time inquiring about maximum receiver’s wattage output. I take the input power rating in watts, divided by the number of amps minus 20% in heat loss and audio/video processing.
Unless we believe in magic, there is no way the AVR-4520 can deliver more than 70watts RMS simultaneously from its 780wat power supply. Compared with Onkyo’s 11Amp time 120volts equivalent to 1320watts, 140watts per Onkyo channel is quite believable. The 150watt Denon claim is an insult to our intelligence but I won’t hold it against them because they excel in other areas…

Specifications
(TX-NR3010)
Amplifier Section
Video Section
Tuner Section
General
■HDMI
■Video Inputs
■Video Outputs
■Audio Inputs
■Audio Outputs
■Others
Specifications and features are subject to change
without notice.
Rated Output Power
All channels: (North American)
140 watts minimum continuous power per
channel, 8 ohm loads, 2 channels driven
from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, with a maximum
total harmonic distortion of 0.05% (FTC)
(European)
9 ch × 200 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven
of 1% (IEC)
Dynamic Power*
* IEC60268-Short-term maximum output power
320 W (3 Ω, Front)
270 W (4 Ω, Front)
160 W (8 Ω, Front)
THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion+Noise)
0.05% (20 Hz - 20 kHz, half power)
Damping Factor 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 Ω)
Input Sensitivity and Impedance (Unbalance)
200 mV/47 kΩ (LINE)
2.5 mV/47 kΩ (PHONO MM)
Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance
1 V/470 Ω (PRE OUT)
Maximum RCA Output Level and Impedance
5.5 V/470 Ω (PRE OUT)
Phono Overload 70 mV (MM 1 kHz 0.5% Direct)
Frequency Response 5 Hz - 100 kHz/+1 dB, –3 dB (Direct mode)
Tone Control Characteristics
±10 dB, 50 Hz (BASS)
±10 dB, 20 kHz (TREBLE)
Signal to Noise Ratio 110 dB (LINE, IHF-A)
80 dB (PHONO MM, IHF-A)
Speaker Impedance 4 Ω - 16 Ω
Input Sensitivity/Output Level and Impedance
1 Vp-p/75 Ω (Component Y)
0.7 Vp-p/75 Ω (Component PB/CB, PR/CR)
1 Vp-p/75 Ω (Composite)
Component Video Frequency Response
5 Hz - 100 MHz/+0 dB, –3 dB
FM Tuning Frequency Range
(North American) 87.5 MHz - 107.9 MHz
(European) 87.5 MHz - 108.0 MHz, RDS
AM Tuning Frequency Range
522/530 kHz - 1611/1710 kHz
Preset Channel 40
Digital Tuner (North American) HD Radio
Power Supply (North American) AC 120 V, 60 Hz
(European) AC 220 - 240 V, 50/60 Hz
Power Consumption (North American) 11.0 A
(European) 1010 W
No-sound Power Consumption
(North American) 150 W
(European) 140 W
Stand-by Power Consumption
(North American) 0.10 W
(European) 0.15 W
Dimensions (W × H × D)
435 mm × 198.5 mm × 463.5 mm
17-1/8" × 7-13/16" × 18-1/4"
Weight 25.0 kg (55.1 lbs.)
Input IN 1, IN 2, IN 3, IN 4, IN 5, IN 6, IN 7, IN 8,
AUX INPUT
Output OUT MAIN, OUT SUB/ZONE 2 OUT
Video Resolution 1080p
Audio Format Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio,
DVD-Audio, DSD
Supported 3D, Audio Return Channel, DeepColor,
x.v.Color, Lip Sync, CEC (RIHD), HDMI
ZONE 2
Component IN 1, IN 2
Composite BD/DVD, CBL/SAT, STB/DVR, GAME 1,
AUX
Analog RGB PC IN
Component MONITOR OUT
Composite MONITOR OUT, ZONE 2 OUT
Digital Optical: 2 (Rear), 1(Front)
Coaxial: 3
Analog BD/DVD, CBL/SAT, STB/DVR, GAME 1,
PC, TV/CD, PHONO, AUX
Analog ZONE 2 LINE OUT, ZONE 3 LINE OUT
Analog Multichannel Pre Outputs
11
Subwoofer Pre Outputs
4
Speaker Outputs Main [L (SP-A), R (SP-A), C, SL, SR, SBL,
SBR] + Front Wide/ZONE 2/SP-B (L, R) +
Front High/ZONE 3 (L, R)
Phones 1 (6.3 ø)
Setup Mic 1
RS232 1
RI 1
USB 1 (Front)/1 (Rear)
Ethernet 1
IR Input 1
IR Output 1
12 V Trigger Out 2

Given its Toroidal transformer, I am fairly certain that the 3010 will have no trouble reaching those specs. I don't think there would be any dispute that Onkyo publishes their specs knowing they only power 1 or 2 channels at maximum like most other AVR companies (with the exception HK) do.