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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 99

post #2941 of 7730
Joe6P,

I think the claimed wattage is not likely and I think your comparison is valid - but I do recall reading on this thread that the quoted power consumption for Denon AVRs is not necessarily maximum power consumption so it may or may not be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Overall though, I too would expect the Onkyo to have more power - I recall bench tests of my Onkyo 876 (and its predecessor the 875) in the 125wpc range with all 7 channels driven and if I remeber correctly that AVR was rated at 9.5 amps. Nevertheless, I will tell you this - I wouldn't for a second consider trading the 4520 for the 876 - the 4520 is light years ahead in terms of useability and smoothness (and so was my comparatively lowly 3310 of the same vintage as the 876). Despite the high tech features for its time, the 876 due to slow and clunky operation (details of which I've previously mentioned in this thread) never really felt high-tech.

It's possible Onkyo has changed but I have my doubts, particularly as they continually cram the latest and greatest feature into their AVRs with some seemingly robust power supplies at some very competitive prices - at the end of the day you can't do it all at a set cost. If I had to sum it up, I find what Denon prioritizes for the same price more appealling - it may tick fewer boxes on a checklist but in operation the Denon to me is far more appealing.
post #2942 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Given its Toroidal transformer, I am fairly certain that the 3010 will have no trouble reaching those specs. I don't think there would be any dispute that Onkyo publishes their specs knowing they only power 1 or 2 channels at maximum like most other AVR companies (with the exception HK) do.

I could be wrong but I think only the 5010 has a toroidal transformer.
post #2943 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Given its Toroidal transformer, I am fairly certain that the 3010 will have no trouble reaching those specs. I don't think there would be any dispute that Onkyo publishes their specs knowing they only power 1 or 2 channels at maximum like most other AVR companies (with the exception HK) do.

I fully agree!
Toroidal transformers are cleaner and more efficient, generating less heat. Adding to that are the humongous capacitors capable of delivering extra bursts of energy on demand. That is a very important feature to protect tweeters from blowing by clipping amplifiers due to momentary starvation. Unfortunately, none if that is present in the 4520…
post #2944 of 7730
Thread Starter 
Blah blah blah. Every single year we have the same freaking discussion about wattage. The difference between 100w/ch versus 120 or 130 with all channels driven is basically meaningless in real world use.

Onkyo 3010 bench test -- 114 w/ch with 7 channels driven: http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Babble all you want and wax poetic about how much heavier the Onkyo is, but the 4311 had basically the same numbers. The 4520 will do at least 80-90% of that. Again, NO DIFFERENCE in real world use.

This is a whole lot of wasted (e) ink. The 4520 will have approximately as much power as any other $2k class receiver, which is to say plenty for the vast majority of typical setups (8ohm speakers, 88db+ sensitivity). If you need more power than a $2k receiver provides with its internal amps, get external amps. Case closed.

Can we please move on now? smile.gif
post #2945 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

I could be wrong but I think only the 5010 has a toroidal transformer.

Denon’s AVR-5308 employs a toroidal transform. So does Emotiva with their power Amps.
So let’s not fool ourselves; toroidal transforms are the real deal but they cost more to manufacture and to ship.
I must respect Onkyo for their conservative approach by preserving the good old things. I wish they’d refine their product in the other areas though.
BTW, I owned an Onkyo receiver while back. As I recall, I was very impressed by its generous power.
post #2946 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Blah blah blah. Every single year we have the same freaking discussion about wattage. The difference between 100w/ch versus 120 or 130 with all channels driven is basically meaningless in real world use.

Onkyo 3010 bench test -- 114 w/ch with 7 channels driven: http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Babble all you want and wax poetic about how much heavier the Onkyo is, but the 4311 had basically the same numbers. The 4520 will do at least 80-90% of that. Again, NO DIFFERENCE in real world use.

This is a whole lot of wasted (e) ink. The 4520 will have approximately as much power as any other $2k class receiver, which is to say plenty for the vast majority of typical setups (8ohm speakers, 88db+ sensitivity). If you need more power than a $2k receiver provides with its internal amps, get external amps. Case closed.

Can we please move on now? smile.gif

Thank God someone said it. As an owner of efficient (91db) speakers I would much rather see people debate its functionality and feature set. If what BatPig says is true (and I believe it is) than we can all assume that the Denon has enough power to drive 99% of speakers in 99% of rooms.
post #2947 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Blah blah blah. Every single year we have the same freaking discussion about wattage. The difference between 100w/ch versus 120 or 130 with all channels driven is basically meaningless in real world use.

Onkyo 3010 bench test -- 114 w/ch with 7 channels driven: http://www.hometheater.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

Babble all you want and wax poetic about how much heavier the Onkyo is, but the 4311 had basically the same numbers. The 4520 will do at least 80-90% of that. Again, NO DIFFERENCE in real world use.

This is a whole lot of wasted (e) ink. The 4520 will have approximately as much power as any other $2k class receiver, which is to say plenty for the vast majority of typical setups (8ohm speakers, 88db+ sensitivity). If you need more power than a $2k receiver provides with its internal amps, get external amps. Case closed.

Can we please move on now? smile.gif

A bit "testy" today? Its no big deal whether it's talked about.
I'm all for defending the honor of my 4520 but it's good that people have information to base their decisions on. As you say, get external amps, I have, if it doesn't deliver the power you need or want.
post #2948 of 7730
Thread Starter 
I'm not "defending the honor". It's not a fanboy type of viewpoint where I'm getting defensive about somebody insulting my precious Denon or anything. I would say the same thing in a Pio or Yamaha thread.

It's just that this same discussion literally happens every year, you can find the exact same thing in the 4311 thread, the 4310 thread, etc. People completely over-obsess about weight, specs, torroidal transformers, etc. when the real world difference between different wattage output amongst similarly priced receivers is negligible.

The 4520, like any other $2k type receiver, has plenty of power for most situations. Unless it doesn't. In which case you need external amps, not a different $2k receiver.
post #2949 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

I could be wrong but I think only the 5010 has a toroidal transformer.

I think you are right about that...I thought the 300x series had them too, but that just might be the improved power supply over the 100x series.
post #2950 of 7730
Well my firmware updated with no problems. I did it last night around 11pm when I was shutting down for the night. I don't know exactly how long it took, the first time I checked it was 20 minutes in, then the last time I checked over a half hour later it was completed.
post #2951 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm not "defending the honor". It's not a fanboy type of viewpoint where I'm getting defensive about somebody insulting my precious Denon or anything.
Thank God for that. I would certainly hate for this to become another flaming fanboy forum like the Emo lounge or Club Polk biggrin.gif
post #2952 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Thank God for that. I would certainly hate for this to become another flaming fanboy forum like the Emo lounge or Club Polk biggrin.gif

I said that I was all for defending the "honor of my 4520." I don't see you as a fanboy at all. I love my 4520 but I think that people should make an informed choice, which I did since I expected nothing from the amps. It ends up that people are for the most part satisfied with the power output of the 4520.
post #2953 of 7730
Anybody that did this week's Firmware update would tell me what the Firmware version is now on the receiver? I have 3325-0792-1453, which is the one that was released prior to this week. I still can't get the receiver to tell me there is an updateavailable since it failed while downloading it yesterday. Wonder what the problem is. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
post #2954 of 7730
Current FW on mine is 3325-0703-3453. Might be stupid question but have you tried doing Update Start as opposed to checking for FW? It might be that it is not providing notifications as it already has shown it. Just a guess.
post #2955 of 7730
Yes, I also tried Update Start and it still says Latest. Weird, your version seems older than the one I have. Have you tried updating it recently?
post #2956 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaphely View Post

Yes, I also tried Update Start and it still says Latest. Weird, your version seems older than the one I have. Have you tried updating it recently?

Did the update 2 nights ago. After reading your number it does seem strange, but the last 4 digits is higher. Unfortunately, the Changelog on Post 4 does not show the latest update number.

Here are the first two listed updates: .
1 10/1/2012 (3325-8562-1375)

2. 11/19/2012 (3325-0792-1424)
post #2957 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Thank God for that. I would certainly hate for this to become another flaming fanboy forum like the Emo lounge or Club Polk biggrin.gif

A little energy every now and then on the forum doesn’t hurt.
After all, it’s the lack of energy biggrin.gif on the 4520 power amps that’s driving the thread mostly.
post #2958 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Did the update 2 nights ago. After reading your number it does seem strange, but the last 4 digits is higher. Unfortunately, the Changelog on Post 4 does not show the latest update number.

Here are the first two listed updates: .
1 10/1/2012 (3325-8562-1375)

2. 11/19/2012 (3325-0792-1424)

I didn't realize the numbers were not following each other. So apparently, you have the latest (Post 4 was just updated). So why in hell my receiver tells me I have the latest even if yesterday it was telling me that I needed to update but failed to do it?
Anybody who DIDN'T update yet can try to update to see if the receiver will actually do it today? Maybe they have server issues.
By the way, I did a network reset and it didn't make any difference. I might try a full reset if it still tells me it has the latest a couple days from now.
Thanks
post #2959 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaphely View Post

I didn't realize the numbers were not following each other. So apparently, you have the latest (Post 4 was just updated). So why in hell my receiver tells me I have the latest even if yesterday it was telling me that I needed to update but failed to do it?
Anybody who DIDN'T update yet can try to update to see if the receiver will actually do it today? Maybe they have server issues.
By the way, I did a network reset and it didn't make any difference. I might try a full reset if it still tells me it has the latest a couple days from now.
Thanks

Hello,
My sincerest thanks to Jdsmoothie for maintaining and updating the Changelog. That really does seem strange that you received the notification, attempted to do the update, update failed, and now it does not show new FW.

While I seriously doubt that there is anything wrong with your 4520, I do wonder whether or not you might have to do a microprocessor reset. Hopefully not as it is a complete pain to have to redo Audyssey and everything else. Thankfully, this update does not appear to change very much. However, I am sure this is quite frustrating.
Cheers,
AD
post #2960 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Current FW on mine is 3325-0703-3453. Might be stupid question but have you tried doing Update Start as opposed to checking for FW? It might be that it is not providing notifications as it already has shown it. Just a guess.

 

Perhaps you typed it in wrong--the latest version is 3325-5703-3453.

post #2961 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Perhaps you typed it in wrong--the latest version is 3325-5703-3453.

That I did. It is indeed 3325-5703-3453. Sorry for any confusion this might have caused.
post #2962 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Denon’s AVR-5308 employs a toroidal transform. So does Emotiva with their power Amps.
So let’s not fool ourselves; toroidal transforms are the real deal but they cost more to manufacture and to ship.
I must respect Onkyo for their conservative approach by preserving the good old things. I wish they’d refine their product in the other areas though.
BTW, I owned an Onkyo receiver while back. As I recall, I was very impressed by its generous power.
Sounds like you are all for Onkyo, if that or the Emotiva suits you, it's all good mate...
Leave us Denon owners to our poor underpowered machines..
post #2963 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

A little energy every now and then on the forum doesn’t hurt.
After all, it’s the lack of energy biggrin.gif on the 4520 power amps that’s driving the thread mostly.

Actually it seems mostly about you throwing in jabs about this receiver wherever you can. Have you actually tried running the 4520 through whatever speakers you have? I'm powering my measly Mythos ST speakers splendidly and have an Outlaw 7125 collecting dust because the difference is imperceptible to my ear.

Also, if the Denon isn't driving whatever speakers you own then I would go out on a limb and say no current receiver would. In that case you'd need separates any way.
post #2964 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

Sounds like you are all for Onkyo, if that or the Emotiva suits you, it's all good mate...
Leave us Denon owners to our poor underpowered machines..


Good or bad you shouldn’t be offended by the facts if you care to learn the truth.
Over the years, I’ve owned more than a dozen Denon units and I’ve seen the quality degrading. Here I’m simply comparing my old Denon flagship AVR-5803 to the new one I just got the 5420. I came to expect more from Denon because I know them real well.
As a matter of fact, I have an issue with my new OPPO-103 playing SACD. I didn’t hesitate critiquing them and I kept my old Denon DVD-5900 in my system for pure audio performance.
I think I should be appreciated for telling it as it is…

Denon DVD-5900

post #2965 of 7730
Thread Starter 
I don't think anyone is offended by the facts. Rather, we are annoyed at being bludgeoned by the same fact over and over and over from the same person.

Toroidal transformer. We get it. Give it a rest man.
post #2966 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenVariety View Post



Also, if the Denon isn't driving whatever speakers you own then I would go out on a limb and say no current receiver would. In that case you'd need separates any way.

Good observation. I can tell you correctly sensed where I come from and how I think audio…
As a matter of fact I haven’t used an AVR to power my two main speakers in over ten years now; not even the AVR-5803…
Long time ago I learn the hard way after continuously blowing my old JBL titanium tweeters so many time that if you have decent front speakers and you mean business you should invest in separate amps which I did. It’s a 53lbs Yamaha MX-1 that can continuously drive 2ohms speakers at 630watts each. Check out the pictures below worth many thousands words.
And ever since, I’ve smelled and seen smoke come out from the speakers’ crossovers but without blowing a single tweeter…
I know it doesn’t have toroidal transformers batpig wink.gif but the quality is just incredible. As you might tell, it’s two mono blocks in one unit.
I’m still running 7.1 channels system using my new 4520 two main front amps to power (bi-amp) my center speaker mated with my old 18’servo Velodyne 1,250 watts RMS, 3,000 watts surge.





MX-1 Specifications
Minimum RMS Output Power per Channel
(20 Hz ~ 20kHz) 0.008% THD 8 ohms = 200W 0.03% THD, 4 ohms = 260W 0.09% THD, 2 ohms = 320W

Dynamic Power per Channel
(by IHF Dynamic Headroom measuring method) 8/4/2 ohms = 280/460/630W

DIN Standard Output Power per Channel
1kHz, 0.5% THD, 4 ohms = 300W (H,W)

Dimensions
(W x H x D) = 438 x 116 x 486mm (17-1/4" x 4-9/16" x 19-1/8")

Weight
24.0kg (52 lbs 14 oz)
Edited by Joe6P - 2/15/13 at 9:56pm
post #2967 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Good or bad you shouldn’t be offended by the facts if you care to learn the truth.
Over the years, I’ve owned more than a dozen Denon units and I’ve seen the quality degrading. Here I’m simply comparing my old Denon flagship AVR-5803 to the new one I just got the 5420. I came to expect more from Denon because I know them real well.
As a matter of fact, I have an issue with my new OPPO-103 playing SACD. I didn’t hesitate critiquing them and I kept my old Denon DVD-5900 in my system for pure audio performance.
I think I should be appreciated for telling it as it is…

Denon DVD-5900


I get why you're comparing the 3010 to the 4520 - after all they are comparably priced so you should do your due diligence and pick what's right for you. On the other hand, it seems silly to keep comparing the 4520 and the 5803. These products do not line up in terms of price - it would be like endlessly comparing the 2313 to the 4520 and asking why it doesn't quite measure up to the 4520 - simple because it costs significantly less and like anything else in life there's no free lunch.

I have to ask though, are you actually disappointed by the real world performance of the 4520 or are you just concerned that it theoretically won't perform as well as the Onkyo 3010/5010 or your 5803?

Don't take offence at the question, I think most of us who are wrapped up in this hobby develop a certain level of OCD over our gear. In truth, if someone was looking to put their money on a new AVR I would even have a hard time honestly telling them that the 3313 isn't already more than they would likely need - it certainly had plenty of juice for my 7.1 speaker setup in a 2,700 cubic foot room but i freely admit that I upgraded to the 4520 because it gave me the piece of mind that it was the best Denon currently offered. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the extra features of the 4520 and I think the extra cost over the 3313 is reasonable considering these features. However, in terms of SQ and power, if I'm going to be truthful the 3313 had more than enough power and sounded great. The only real improvement I noticed on the 4520 over the 3313 is that the bass from my sub is smoother which I suspect could have something to do with XT32 but even then the difference wasn't drastic.

It could be that you're not ready to accept that an AVR that weighs so much less than your 5803 sounds just as good and perhaps better (due to technology like XT32). In which case I would say buy whatever is going to allow you to get over obsessing over the wattage this unit has - your own piece of mind is worth a couple of bucks.
post #2968 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

I get why you're comparing the 3010 to the 4520 - after all they are comparably priced so you should do your due diligence and pick what's right for you. On the other hand, it seems silly to keep comparing the 4520 and the 5803. These products do not line up in terms of price - it would be like endlessly comparing the 2313 to the 4520 and asking why it doesn't quite measure up to the 4520 - simple because it costs significantly less and like anything else in life there's no free lunch.

I have to ask though, are you actually disappointed by the real world performance of the 4520 or are you just concerned that it theoretically won't perform as well as the Onkyo 3010/5010 or your 5803?

Don't take offence at the question, I think most of us who are wrapped up in this hobby develop a certain level of OCD over our gear. In truth, if someone was looking to put their money on a new AVR I would even have a hard time honestly telling them that the 3313 isn't already more than they would likely need - it certainly had plenty of juice for my 7.1 speaker setup in a 2,700 cubic foot room but i freely admit that I upgraded to the 4520 because it gave me the piece of mind that it was the best Denon currently offered. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the extra features of the 4520 and I think the extra cost over the 3313 is reasonable considering these features. However, in terms of SQ and power, if I'm going to be truthful the 3313 had more than enough power and sounded great. The only real improvement I noticed on the 4520 over the 3313 is that the bass from my sub is smoother which I suspect could have something to do with XT32 but even then the difference wasn't drastic.

It could be that you're not ready to accept that an AVR that weighs so much less than your 5803 sounds just as good and perhaps better (due to technology like XT32). In which case I would say buy whatever is going to allow you to get over obsessing over the wattage this unit has - your own piece of mind is worth a couple of bucks.

I’m mostly in agreement with you. I’ve said it before that I consider the AVR-4520ci the best receiver in its category as a package. My issue is that we call it flagship because it’s the most modern Denon receiver but that’s misleading. The flagship should be a 5320ci or 5820ci… The 5308 is being replaced by the 4520 and that’s not logical.
I’m willing to pay the price for a modern and powerful Denon receiver but they don’t make it anymore. Apparently that’s what the masses want…
post #2969 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I don't think anyone is offended by the facts. Rather, we are annoyed at being bludgeoned by the same fact over and over and over from the same person.

Toroidal transformer. We get it. Give it a rest man.
+1
I own a Marantz SR 12 S1, the most musical AV amp of it's generation and still sings a great tune. SRP is about 8k, and powerful with 70 000mF of caps. And it comes with a toroidal transformer and many other audiophile trappings. Well it should for 8 grand and toast my bread too.

But I don't keep comparing my 4520 to it. I enjoy the various new tech the 4520 gives, and I have change leftover to buy a very good and powerful stereo amp, which provides the muscle for my B&W 804D.
post #2970 of 7730
So from reading the 'war on power' discussion here smile.gif can I assume that I'll be more than fine running:

- 7.2 setup
- Quad L 22/12/11/C 2xQuad L 300w subs
- The 22Ls are 89db/6 Ohm
- Living room style setup with one sofa
- Upgrading from the beast, the 5805 which I bought a year ago on eBay.

Also curious about adding height channels to this setup, any suggestions for what speakers? Something svelte with an ok GFAF (Not WAF quite yet). smile.gif

I just pulled the pin and purchased from Mike@AVS. Read the whole thread, great stuff.
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