The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 107

I like to share this with those among us considering external power amps.
I’m temporarily testing for a friend of mine the $499 Emotiva UPA-700 Seven-Channel Power Amplifier as seen on the bottom of my rack. I’m using my Denon AVR 4520ci as a preamp only. I had to remove my 2 channel MX-1 amp in order to make room for the Emotiva.
Rated at an honest 80watts@8ohms, 100watts@4ohms times 7channels; this amp is remarkably tight, clean and dynamic. I’m amazed that even in the preamp configuration; the 4520 is still running about three times warmer than the UPA-700. It is obvious the 80watts/Emotiva is more pronounced than the 150watts/Denon. As a matter of fact, I’m tempted to buy the 200/300watt XPA-5 for keeps.

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa700

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpa5

I’m still waiting for the UMC-200 to show up before I can a final judgment. I’m very curious about any hiss noise and its ability to perform accurate room equalization.
I’ll keep you informed…

http://shop.emotiva.com/products/umc200

Hey Joe - I have a XPA-3 driving my mains L-C-R, saved $100 at the holiday sale, and now I can drive my 11.1 set-up fully.

Now, if I went with the XP5-A instead, then I would have 2 amps leftover on the 4520 to drive zone 2 in the nearby pool/dart room directly and always having full 11.1 in the Home Theater, instead of using my 12 year old Onkyo tx-ds787 - subject of soon post here.

Now wait a minute please, are you saying you are running the Denon 4520 as a pre-amp with a power amp that puts out less wattage than the 4520? I'm lost here! Care to explain why and how you got to that conclusion? How is Emotiva more pronounced than the Denon?

3 months ago I posted my attempts at using the 4520CI for zone 2 and 3, http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/750#post_22555405, and concluded it's less flexible than my older 4308CI.

I've moved past that, and this weekend re-arranged my AV rack to accommodate my 12 year old Onkyo tx-ds787, along with a iNuke3000 for my multi-subwoofer build.

So, I will be feeding the Onkyo tx-ds787 with signal from my Comcast cable box, this will give me zone 2 (pool/dart board room, next to HT) and still having 11.1 in the home theater for big sports events.

Q for AustinJerry/jdsmoothie/Others;
Can I also output say from my 4520CI Internet radio/HD radio to the Onkyo tx-ds787, so if we are just listening to music want that everywhere?
Or the 4520CI will not output those "internal" sources to Audio Out?

 

Joe, assuming that the UPA-700 runs around 120 degrees, which would be typical, you are saying that your 4520 is running three times warmer, or 360 degrees?  I hope you have a fire extinguisher handy.

Feri,

It's well known that Denon's current receivers run hot because their video processor board uses a lot of power, even when it's not doing anything.

Selden, I didn't ask such a question. My query to the OP is about using a lower wattage power amp than the on-board Denon amp. BTW, in either case I suppose the video processor is running (hot), eh?

 

LOL And a pair of asbestos gloves in case he needs to use the volume control.

 

:)  The Emo is measured all channels driven, but even so, I take your point. Even measured ACD, it's unlikely the Denon is delivering less than 80 wpc.

 

Emotiva is pronounced 'EE-MOH-TEE-VA' and Denon is pronounced 'DEN-ON'. You can clearly see from this explanation that Emotiva is more pronounced than Denon ;)

 

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist that. I'll get my coat.

 

Feri: I think Joe has been on the 'shrooms again :)

In multi-channel setup most AVRs deliver only a rather small percentage of their stated two channel specs. It's quite common that a 145 Watt/per channel channel amp will deliver only about 60 Watt/channel in 9 channel setup as tested by several magazines. Thus an 80 Watt/all channel speced amp will probably deliver more clean wattage than an AVR-4520.

Are you sure about that gurkey, I mean the "more clean wattage"?

1. Right. The 4308CI can pass PCM 2.0 over optical/digital coax to Zones 2/3 while the 4520CI cannot.
2. Yes, as long as you use the Zone 2/3 pre-out to the 787.

I believe I have your answer "Placebo effect". For those interested, have a look at hometheater.com for their review of the Denon 2313 which weighs in at just 24 lbs. The reviewer notes that he successfully drove his 4 ohms speakers in a 5,000 cubic foot room and that he doubted if he could pick his own combination of an Integra 80.2 AVR/Anthem PVA 7 Amplifier from the 2313 in a blind test. Incidentally, for those still consumed with whether the 4520 has enough power, even the 2313 was tested at 74 wpc with 7 channels driven. The link to the review is below:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-2313ci-av-receiver-page-2

 

Oh, dear, I hope we aren't going to get into another long discussion about the 4520's internal amps.  Can't we just refer people back to the original five or six discussions we have had on this topic and maybe discuss the weather instead?

Hey Mike,
Thanks for your open mind in exploring unconventional possibilities. That’s what keeps me going…

Some of the folks missed what I wrote that I’m only testing the UPA-700 for a friend before I ship it out to Europe. I don’t own any stock in Emotiva but I like to share my good and bad surprises with the audio enthusiasts. Unfortunately, some take it personal and get offended…
As I mentioned above, my main Power Amp is a massive two channel Yamaha-MX1 that I removed for now to test the full 7 channels Emotiva.
To the fellow who’s counting and multiplying calories while losing the big picture, my point is there is no excuse for the 4520 pre amp to radiate more heat than the hard working power amp. I.e., the cowboy shouldn’t be sweating more than his horse…
That’s why I’m getting excited about the higher end XPA-5 although I don’t really need it. I can always use my good old 12Amp, Denon AVR-5803 strictly as 7 channels power amp 170watt@8ohms/200watts@6ohms. What I’m looking for now is a clean re-pro that can do good job at HDMI switching and lip sync without sweating too much.
If the UM-200 passes my test, I will consider getting rid of the 4520. No offence…

What actually are you testing on the UPA-700 dear Joe6P? Why not just tell the friend in Europe to get a 4520 locally and call it a day!

P.S.: Is the UPA-700 you are testing a European version made for 230 Volts/50 Hz mains?

Good point but regrettable at the same time because it implies there is more energy wasted on heat especially for those who live in Texas during the summer time.
However, I don’t use any video processing from the 4520. I set it OFF not even to standard. I also leave the OPPO-103 at its factory default and use only my Epson 3020 projector for video calibration and enhancement.
BTW I have a stunning picture both in 2D and 3D. That’s the reason I’m picking on everything else…

Funny you mentioned that. Except for one model Amp. All Emotiva are built with 120V/230V automatic power switching.
I bet that’s a surprise for you…
See I give and never expect anything in return…

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/upa700

Specifications
Topology: Fully discrete, dual differential, high current, short signal path Class A/B
Number of Channels: 7
Power Output
(rated power; THD < 0.01%):
100 watts / channel (4 ohms; all channels driven)
80 watts / channel (8 ohms; all channels driven)
Rated Power Bandwidth (at rated power; 8 Ohm load): 10 Hz to 20 kHz + /- 0.06 dB
Minimum Recommended Load Impedance (each channel): 4 ohms (which equals one 4 ohm load or two paralleled 8 ohm loads per channel)
Frequency Response: 10 Hz to 80 kHz (+ 0 / - 3 dB)
THD + noise: < 0.01%
Signal to Noise Ratio (8 Ohm load):
> 97 dB at 1 watt (A-weighted)
> 116 dB at rated power (A-weighted)
Damping Factor (8 Ohm load): > 500

Speaker Output Connections:
Full-sized 5-way binding posts; one pair per channel x 7
Power Supply:
60,000 uF of storage capacitance
Input sensitivity (for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 870 mV
Gain: 29 dB
Input Connections: Unbalanced (RCA); one per channel
Input Impedance: 47 kOhms
Trigger:
Trigger Input: 5 - 20 V (AC or DC); <10 mA input current required
Trigger Output: 12 VDC; can drive any load up to 50 mA
Power Requirements: 115 VAC or 230 VAC +/- 10% @ 50 / 60 Hz (automatically detected and switched)

Funny you reply to the P.S and not to the main Q. What actually are you testing on the Emotiva b4 shipping out?

With all due respect, Your PS showed lack of knowledge that needed to be corrected.
I respect all posters enough to read all their post. I wish I’m treated the same.
As far as asking me what I’m actually testing before shipping it out. How about to make sure the ON light comes ON when I turn it ON…
I’m sure you’ve read about defective channels out of the box even on its majesty the 4520ci. Do you think it’s wise to pay for an international shipment before making sure the unit works? Call me old fashion but I don’t…

Bye-bye!

That may be true in some cases but all channels driven tests have little correlation to real-world home theater demands anyway where it is unlikely that an AVR would be called upon to deliver 7 or 9 channels of reference level power at the same time.

While bench tests do not accurately represent real world, it's important to realize peak power requirements of action scenes could max out the receiver and cause clipping, which could damage speakers.

I suppose the best way to monitor this would be to record the sine wave on all channels during a movie, then review it for signs of clipping. I don't even know if that's possible.

Since my speakers are efficient (93db) and low end of crossed over at 80hz. I'm not overly concerned about the power of the 4520.

In real terms, the audible difference between 60 watts and 100 is nothing. Not to say that tweeter damaging clipping is always audible.

I suspect no real difference in sound quality will be had unless your spending massive amounts of money on significantly larger power/quality amplifiers than even the XPA delivers, and at that point, you'd probably be on a better receiver than a 4520.

As for the heat comments, I personally think it foolish to own a 4520 without some type of active cooling. If you have room for it, a 240mm+ PC fan horizontally would be best, or perhaps that Antec component cooler.

Heat is the enemy. Fight!

Has anyone used the sub-out to drive a pro-audio amp like the behringer epx4000? Was the voltage level coming out of the Denon high enough to drive the amp properly?

Okay, I think I have narrowed down my problem to be a communication issue between the 4520 and my Panny projector (AX100).

Background:
When I connect the 4520 directly to the PJ, the screen blacks out (audio still on). The PJ is hard to communicate with via IR and it appears "stressed out" (sorry, don't know how to explain it). If I remove the 4520 from the connection and connect the PJ directly to a source or feed it through the Denon AVR-2310CI or an Onkyo TX-NR905 or a DVDO Edge, it (the PJ) works and all sources work fine.

When I connect the 4520 to a Panny plasma in my family room, it works fine. Same goes for another Panny plasma in my basement. Again, all same sources and same HDMI cable.

Current:
If I add the DVDO Edge back into my setup and run all sources (HDMI for now) to the 4520, then HDMI(main) out to the DVDO Edge, then Edge HDMI output to PJ, everything works fine only after I enable HDCP input and output handling on the Edge. If I turn them off and the screen will go black again.

Does this all mean that I have an HDCP issue between my PJ (AX100) and my 4520? If so, is there a fix for it as I would really like to remove the DVDO Edge from the chain of connections. This (removal of the DVDO Edge) was one of my primary reasons for purchasing this AVR as I could eliminate that piece of equipment in the rack as the 4520 can perform the vertical stretch required for my 2.35:1 CIH setup.

Thanks.

Kind regards,
T.Wells

RECEVIER BROKEN AFTER TWO WEEKS OF OWNERSHIP!

Boy am I disappointed. After two weeks and while I was watching a nice Peter Gabriel concert the 4520 decided to go into a non-stop reboot mode, turning itself on, then off, then back on again. I unplugged it for 15 minutes and tried again, with no luck. Then I unplugged it again and every cable hooked up as well, let it sit another 15 minutes, then tried to power it up again to no avail. Sent an email to the dealer. We'll see what happens.

Jerry

Just tried a deep reset and that did not fix the problem. Looks like it's going back.
Edited by Jerry Incollingo - 3/3/13 at 8:27pm

What is the length of the HDMI cable to the projector? You might need an HDMI booster of some sort to help with the distance.

This is sad and funny at the same time.
Just for my own curiosity, can you tell us how adequate the ventilation was around the unit?
Thanks,

The receiver sits in a built in wall unit. There is no front covering and about 4 inches to the top of the built in, but ventilation holes are cut into the top of the built in. The receiver was never hot to the touch, only warm as I wasn't driving it hard at the time of the failure. My 4306 sat in its place for 6 years without incident. I don't think it's a heat issue.

Jerry