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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 110

post #3271 of 7693
ellisr63,

Did you try connecting your cable box's HDMI output directly to the projector (with digital audio going to the receiver)? Many cable and satellite decoders are incompatible with the types of HDMI repeaters used in most receivers.

The other possible problem is that your projector is old enough that it doesn't include HDCP. Support for HDCP is required by most modern receivers. If that's the case, the 5420's HDMI output might not work at all for you.

Component and composite video should work OK when transcoded to HDMI by the receiver, but the quality of the resulting image might not be as good as you'd like. (Current generation Blu-ray payers are required to provide only standard-definition video over their component otuputs.)
post #3272 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

ellisr63,

Did you try connecting your cable box's HDMI output directly to the projector (with digital audio going to the receiver)? Many cable and satellite decoders are incompatible with the types of HDMI repeaters used in most receivers.

The other possible problem is that your projector is old enough that it doesn't include HDCP. Support for HDCP is required by most modern receivers. If that's the case, the 5420's HDMI output might not work at all for you.

Component and composite video should work OK when transcoded to HDMI by the receiver, but the quality of the resulting image might not be as good as you'd like. (Current generation Blu-ray payers are required to provide only standard-definition video over their component otuputs.)

My current projector is the Epson 1080 (first gen). If I hook up my Samsung LCD FP The HDMI signal from the cable box goes through fine. If I use the same cable and go to the projector no picture. What I have been doing is running the component out to the 3806 and then component to the Epson 1080. I am hoping the new 4520 will allow me to just have the HDMI cable going to the projector. I know I need a new projector I just can't afford to get one yet, plus I just put a new bulb in around XMas last year.
post #3273 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post


32bit DAC........What exactly is that?

I've heard a lot of people throw around info about DAC's without understanding them, so a simple write up.

When signals are digital (HDMI, optical, or network streaming MP3s/Flac) they are pure 1's and 0's, nothing in between.

What a DAC does is take these 1's and 0's in the digital world and re-create them in the analog world (the digital to analog conversion in DAC).

In the sense of a 16 bit DAC, we can represent 65,536 tones (or 2^16).
In the sense of a 32 bit DAC, we can represent 4,294,967,296 tones (or 2^32)

Many argue if the human ear can hear info beyond 16 bit, even more argue does it even matter if your data was encoded only at a 16 bit level to decode further steps?

In lab testing when you can decode information, you can create intermediate steps in between the represented bits to "blend" the data better.

Anyone who argues this fact should think of, what makes a "GREAT" DAC versus a "OK" DAC. It's how they take this data, how they blend it, and any filtering they do on it.

Once file is in the analog world (frequency / magnitude) we can amplify it.

So for you to actually take digital "data" and use an amplifier it has to go analog first.

Hope this helps
post #3274 of 7693
kamiraa,
Thanks, I understand the technical side now but I'm not sure if you're if saying that in the real world the DAC does or does NOT matter? Can our ears really hear the difference between 32 & 16 bit DACs?
post #3275 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post

Question: I have a projector that is no longer HDMI compliant... If my source is component will the 4520 convert it so I can still use my HDMI input on my projector? I ask this because my computer has no problem with HDMI going through my 3806 but my cable box does.

It should be OK if you are talking about the STB's component out.
A newer (2011 to present) bluray player would most likely NOT work like that due to the Sunset rules.
post #3276 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

It should be OK if you are talking about the STB's component out.
A newer (2011 to present) bluray player would most likely NOT work like that due to the Sunset rules.
Thanks, at least that will hold me over till I can get a OTA HD antenna setup.
post #3277 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

JD, item 1 has been discussed here before.  Custom settings for 2CH are not available if you have a 5.1 configuration (or more speakers).

Ah, yes you are correct. I had long since forgotten that anomoly of the 4520. redface.gif
post #3278 of 7693
Does this unit offer any mixing capabilities, so I could i.e. hear a little bit of my computer's audio mixed in with my TV audio? Doesn't seem like it but I just wanted to be sure.

I guess with the different zones I could have the front speakers playing the TV and surrounds playing computer, but it would be nice to have full surround for both at once. Kind of silly but I like playing computer games while half-watching TV and I'm not a big fan of headphones.
post #3279 of 7693
AVRs don't mix audio, but you could use the Zone speakers as you suggest.
post #3280 of 7693
Curious, if you used the line in frt r l and say surround r l, the set the playback mode to stereo would the AVR mix the RH on frt and surround together and same for LH?
Poor mans mix way?


Sent from my 32GB iPhone4 using Tapatalk
post #3281 of 7693
I will have to give that a shot after waiting for ground shipping ;-)

One other random question -- any downside to using RCA to XLR cables for the pre-outs? Could just be more interference but I should be able to keep the cables to 10 feet so hopefully not a big deal. Basically I'd like to try out surround with some spare "active" pro audio speakers I have laying around. Just a temporary thing so it certainly didn't justify getting the 8801 for double the price just for balanced outputs. I'm just not sure if the whole -10dBV vs +4dBu difference will matter. There doesn't seem to be a high/low output toggle for the pre-outs, but I'm sure the speakers can get more than loud enough so I suppose its a non-issue.

Cheers
post #3282 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

kamiraa,
Thanks, I understand the technical side now but I'm not sure if you're if saying that in the real world the DAC does or does NOT matter? Can our ears really hear the difference between 32 & 16 bit DACs?

Like mentioned earlier, we need a DAC if using any digital signals, there is no way around it if we want to amplify the signal (Can't amplify a 0 or 1 into something else)

So the question really goes to your second part. Is 16 bit enough? As an engineer, I go with the stance more data is always better.

I think having more data points, it blends better. I've played items before back and forth with an older setup and really enjoyed newer 24bit DACs versus the older 16 bit. But the problem is always this . . . I can show anyone on paper the theory, but what you hear versus what anyone else hears in this thread will be 100% different.

So I enjoy knowing the precision is there with a 32 bit DAC (actually 65k TIMES more precision versus 16bit, I love math)
post #3283 of 7693
^Interesting. To attribute audible sonic differences to the DAC bit size, it would be vital to be sure the only relevant variable is the 16 bit vs 32 bit DAC. All other factors must be controlled including level-matching. I'm curious as to your A/B procedure as especially with small SQ differences, expectation bias can be a factor.
post #3284 of 7693
+1.

Since there are no 32-bit sources AFAIK, and no 32-bit DAC offers anywhere near actual theoretical 32-bit performance (with the exception of some very slow instrumentation devices), it's a numbers (marketing) game. Nothing is actually taking advantage of the extra resolution even assuming it is really there. Any audible improvement is due to either better DAC linearity at lower resolution, or (more likely) improvements in the DAC's analog output buffering and filtering.

In theory (SNR = signal-to-noise ratio, SFDR = spurious-free dynamic range, e.g. noise floor):
16-bit DAC = 98.1 dB SNR, ~144 dB SFDR
24-bit DAC = 146.3 dB SNR, ~216 dB SFDR
32-bit DAC = 194.4 dB SNR, ~288 dB SFDR

Achieving 98 dB SNR in the real world is very challenging, and 144 dB SFDR, well, good luck...
post #3285 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Any audible improvement is due to either better DAC linearity at lower resolution, or (more likely) improvements in the DAC's analog output buffering and filtering.

Any sonic improvements, no more how subtle, will always be appreciated by myself, and I'm sure the home theater audience. This is precisely where Psychoacoustics comes into play, and why there will always be that $1,000 cable market.
post #3286 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

I've heard a lot of people throw around info about DAC's without understanding them, so a simple write up.

When signals are digital (HDMI, optical, or network streaming MP3s/Flac) they are pure 1's and 0's, nothing in between.

What a DAC does is take these 1's and 0's in the digital world and re-create them in the analog world (the digital to analog conversion in DAC).

In the sense of a 16 bit DAC, we can represent 65,536 tones (or 2^16).
In the sense of a 32 bit DAC, we can represent 4,294,967,296 tones (or 2^32)

Many argue if the human ear can hear info beyond 16 bit, even more argue does it even matter if your data was encoded only at a 16 bit level to decode further steps?

In lab testing when you can decode information, you can create intermediate steps in between the represented bits to "blend" the data better.

Anyone who argues this fact should think of, what makes a "GREAT" DAC versus a "OK" DAC. It's how they take this data, how they blend it, and any filtering they do on it.

Once file is in the analog world (frequency / magnitude) we can amplify it.

So for you to actually take digital "data" and use an amplifier it has to go analog first.

Hope this helps

FWIW, the bits allow capture of intensity, not "tones." to capture a particular tone, you need a sampling rate of at least 2 times the tone's frequency.

Moreover, since we have to encode the positive and negative halves of the wave, only half the bits are available for each. Still yields a signal to noise ratio more thatn 30 dB better than vinyl can do IIRC.

I will say I THOUGHT I heard differences going to deeper bit dephs with my DAW. And others have suggested that deeper bit depths are good for recording. But my assessment was not double blind or even based on extensive testing. I had plenty of processing power and storage to work at the higher bit depth, so I ran at the ihger bit depth once I thought it might yield an improvement. What it did not improve was my mic technique, which was captured in all its glorious erroneousness . . .

Lots of digital EQs, compressors, and reverbs, etc operate at 32 bits, again FWIW. That MIGHT make more than merely marketing sense given that a person might be manipulating a track recorded at low levels that ultimately will be pumped up to be pretty loud. You can move the noise floor (or the rounding errors) a long way during the mixing process. Once it's all finalized, though, there actually seems to be convergence around the notion that 16 bits are enough to be indistinguishable from, say, 24 bit files.
post #3287 of 7693
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Any sonic improvements, no more how subtle, will always be appreciated by myself, and I'm sure the home theater audience. This is precisely where Psychoacoustics comes into play, and why there will always be that $1,000 cable market.

I think any sonic improvements you think you hear from $1,000 cables falls under a different realm of psychology than psychoacoustics wink.gif
post #3288 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think any sonic improvements you think you hear from $1,000 cables falls under a different realm of psychology than psychoacoustics wink.gif

LOL, good thing all my cables are from Monoprice. Though, I will still take the 32bit DAC over any of the other 24bit version that Denon has.
post #3289 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

LOL, good thing all my cables are from Monoprice. Though, I will still take the 32bit DAC over any of the other 24bit version that Denon has.

I had a w4s dac and I wish I never sold it , nothing since has ever came close
post #3290 of 7693
Is there a short cut to sub level on the 4520
post #3291 of 7693
Thread Starter 
You means shorter than going into the GUI > AUDIO menu?

The only way would be to program the discrete SUB VOL UP/DOWN commands into a universal remote.
post #3292 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You means shorter than going into the GUI > AUDIO menu?

The only way would be to program the discrete SUB VOL UP/DOWN commands into a universal remote.


Thats what I thought I will hook up the Harmony One later and do that Thanks
post #3293 of 7693
Also my old Pre Amp I could set the sub level for music and movies seperate , I take it this is not an option either
post #3294 of 7693
^I believe you could use the Denon QuickSelect for a one-button option for that purpose, or program the univ remote with a separate music vs movie mode with diff sub levels.
post #3295 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You means shorter than going into the GUI > AUDIO menu?

The only way would be to program the discrete SUB VOL UP/DOWN commands into a universal remote.



Any tips on this , I looked into doing this and Im a little confused I have a Harmony One

AVR - Customized Buttons - Sub Level - In the command options I see nothing
Edited by a1usedcomp - 3/7/13 at 5:49am
post #3296 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sadus View Post

I will have to give that a shot after waiting for ground shipping ;-)

One other random question -- any downside to using RCA to XLR cables for the pre-outs? Could just be more interference but I should be able to keep the cables to 10 feet so hopefully not a big deal. Basically I'd like to try out surround with some spare "active" pro audio speakers I have laying around. Just a temporary thing so it certainly didn't justify getting the 8801 for double the price just for balanced outputs. I'm just not sure if the whole -10dBV vs +4dBu difference will matter. There doesn't seem to be a high/low output toggle for the pre-outs, but I'm sure the speakers can get more than loud enough so I suppose its a non-issue.

Cheers

Shouldn't be an issue at all.
I have done this myself with other systems with good results.
post #3297 of 7693
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You means shorter than going into the GUI > AUDIO menu?

The only way would be to program the discrete SUB VOL UP/DOWN commands into a universal remote.



Any tips on this , I looked into doing this and Im a little confused I have a Harmony One

AVR - Customized Buttons - Sub Level - In the command options I see nothing

They aren't stock commands, you have to hack them in: http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=106
post #3298 of 7693
For those owners that have gotten warranty work done, was the service center quick? What do people think about the refurb units that they might get as replacements? I am seeing a lot of refurb units pop up online now.
post #3299 of 7693
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

For those owners that have gotten warranty work done, was the service center quick? What do people think about the refurb units that they might get as replacements? I am seeing a lot of refurb units pop up online now.

Does that worry you?
(number of referbs vs how relatively new this unit is)
post #3300 of 7693
Seeing a lot of companies offering refurbs does not mean that there actually are a lot of refurbs available. Often enough resellers just order one from a refurb center when someone orders one from them.
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