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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 123

post #3661 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyb12345 View Post

... What is the minimum distance you recommend between the rear of the 4520 and the back panel of an AV cabinet to allow for adequate space for cable connections? I'm restricted to a 22" height cabinet and the cabinet model I like that meets this requirement (Stand Out Design's Majestic) is only 20" deep. I've not purchased a receiver in a long while so I'm not sure how much space with HDMI and Cat 5 connections, etc. I will need to have without crimping the cables behind the receiver...
Wecome, Tony. I have the Stand Out Designs (forum sponsor) Horizon model. The company's products are well-designed including irt good airflow and wire management. Mine has vents cut into the front of the bottom shelf and the glass shelves don't extend fully front to back so as to allow good airflow. I don't have them but they also offer shelves with vent holes in them. I didn't install the rear panels behind the L and R shelves so cabling and airflow is even more care-free.

As to cables themselves, CAT5 are quite generally light, flexible and clip in securely. Banana plugs are a good idea if attaching speaker wires to the AVR. Avoid HDMI cables that are heavy and thick as the HDMI connectors themselves are poorly designed. They can easily become loose and cause problems though I have seen some clever adaptors to securely attach them to the AVR.
post #3662 of 7683
I have about 2" of clearance above mine and I have a 4" USB fan blowing air to the back of the unit.
Enen so, this AVR runs much hotter than the 3311. Does anyone else notice a hot 4520?
post #3663 of 7683
Thanks. I can adjust the spacing above the unit so I'm good to go.
post #3664 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by emanley View Post

I have the same problem with my Audio Technica ATLP120 direct drive turntable. There is no ground connection on it. So, I ended up using turning on the turntable's built-in amp and used the CD input on the receiver. Is there something else I could have done?

Found another ground point?
Any screw that connects to the chassis would have made due.
If you have a power center/conditioner, those have grounding points.
Heck, even the screw on the outlet works in a pinch.
post #3665 of 7683
Quote:
Heck, even the screw on the outlet works in a pinch.

Usually, but at least in my case that did not work with the 4520. I had to run the ground to the receiver terminal.
post #3666 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Talked with Mike again today; he said out of the 20 he has sold, 3 have been replaced. Does 15% failure rate from that batch seem abnormal?

To make statements about overall 4520 failure rates on a sample size of 20 units is ridiculous. Come talk to me when you have a sample of 200 units. That would be statistically significant.
post #3667 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkroeker View Post

To make statements about overall 4520 failure rates on a sample size of 20 units is ridiculous. Come talk to me when you have a sample of 200 units. That would be statistically significant.

Does the fact that all 3 units had the same failure point sway your statement at all? smile.gif
post #3668 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Does the fact that all 3 units had the same failure point sway your statement at all? smile.gif


The sample size is too small.
post #3669 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkroeker View Post

The sample size is too small.

Agreed, but you still can't ignore that data. AVS is one of the few major e-tailers selling these units. It's a mystery what other issues are being reported by other ADs, and by people not even apart of this forum. I actually called Denon yesterday to ask them about this unit, and they claim they have no issues at all. Since I will be ordering one soon, I hope they are not just in denial about its functionality (like Apple was with iPhone battery/wifi problems), only later to admit an issue.
post #3670 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Agreed, but you still can't ignore that data. AVS is one of the few major e-tailers selling these units. It's a mystery what other issues are being reported by other ADs, and by people not even apart of this forum. I actually called Denon yesterday to ask them about this unit, and they claim they have no issues at all. Since I will be ordering one soon, I hope they are not just in denial about its functionality (like Apple was with iPhone battery/wifi problems), only later to admit an issue.

It's good to be cautious, however there is always a risk you may be getting a lemon. Even a 15% risk is pretty good (even if it is that bad). As long as you buy from an authorized retailer you you can return it.
post #3671 of 7683
I had recently been in a large national chain store that handles the Denon (and Marantz) products and they had a bad 4520 on the floor. They said that it was the third time the demo unit had gone bad since they started showing it and recommended me against purchasing this model.

BUT - If you look at their display unit, there was less than 1/2" (if that) above the unit and only a little better to the sides. I would guess that being so tightly packed that these units were always operating above temperature even with the internal fan running and I would have expected them to eventually fail. When I pointed out that the exhaust was at the top of the unit and nearly blocked, they said that management specified that this is the cabinet and how they wanted the unit displayed and that the floor sales people could not change how the unit is displayed This is asking for a failure of any product that is displayed this way and I am surprised the someone from Denon has not said something to them about this as I had seen the same display layout in two different stores.

I would not be surprised if a number of the failures of this product in the field were the result of improper ventilation and the resulting overheating. After being subjected to such high heat, I would suspect that they would be more at risk of additional failures when sold as B-Stock as some components may have been previously over stressed. I suspect that these units are included in any failure count.

Perhaps Denon should look at lower the fans turn on temperature on AVR-4520 models?

Chucka
post #3672 of 7683
Denon says you have to have an entire foot of open air space on the sides and above the receiver.
post #3673 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Denon says you have to have an entire foot of open air space on the sides and above the receiver.

With my 4311, I erred on the side of caution and gave it 8", on a stand with open back and sides.

What's odd about these reports is that the 4311 is fairly stable, and the 4520 (which was also built in Japan and presumably used a similar design and parts inventory, other than the improved VP chip, network switching, an extra DSP chip, and HDMI/zoning capacity) is running into these issues here in AVS. I think part of it is that we have less people moving to the 4520 than the 4311 (remember all those Pioneer guys like me and Audyssey XT users switching to it?), thus less users reporting their usage, which amplifies the failures.
Edited by sdrucker - 3/21/13 at 10:03am
post #3674 of 7683
^^^ That's correct, manual specifically states 12inches of clearance on all sides.

In defense of Denon, the customer service rep did explain that the majority of the failures that are received are back because of improper ventilation. My friend's 5803 literally has a 1 inch clearance, and for years hasn't had an issue. I'm guessing today's Denon's do not dissipate heat as well as the old generation. Since my component rack has plenty of ventilation space and its own dedicated space to accommodate the 4520, I feel more confident that I shouldn't experience any premature shutdowns/protection modes.

With that said, if I experience a failure it will definitely not be attributed to poor ventilation.
post #3675 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If the eBay reseller purchased the unit from an authorized reseller, AFAIK the unit should still be warrantied.

Correct me if I’m wrong.
Unless it’s either counterfeit or stolen from Denon’s warehouse, every AVR-4520ci in any consumer’s hands must have been sold by Denon to an authorized dealer with the purpose of selling them to consumers. It’s as simple as that.
How hard it is for Denon to check the serial number on my unit and identify its origin and the distributor they delivered to.
If the unit was stolen, here is their chance to redeem it and trace back the thieves.
With the high rate of failures, Denon should face the problem and make it hustle free to the consumers who already paid for their units.
Hiding behind the “Unauthorized Dealer” pretext is shameful.
Edited by Joe6P - 3/22/13 at 2:48pm
post #3676 of 7683
I promised to share my interesting findings with those who care…

I took some of my Denon’s flagships of the shelf to test Emotiva’s EMC-200 processor that some wished me luck with it...



I tried many combinations and set ups.
Using OPPO-103($499) with Emotiva EMC-200 Processor ($599) and UPA-700 Power Amp ($499) turned out to be such a pleasant surprise.



Emo’s EMC-200 and UPA-700 combined, retail at less than $1.100 vs. $2.500 Denon’s 4520ci. I certainly missed some bells and whistles but didn’t miss Denon’s lack of reliability.
The more I got used to the EMC-200 the more I liked it. Unlike the 4520ci, the EMC-200 has absolutely no HDMI issues, no hum or hiss noise at reference volume and no leak from other sources. Not the mention the absence of heat radiation.
Note: Lip Sync Delay in the UMC-200 is 0 to 999ms vs. Denon’s 0-100ms. (200ms. manual)




I was surprised when Emotiva’s rep told me it’s OK to set the processor right on top of their Power Amp as long as they got some side clearance. I was skeptical at first but after trying them out, I was shocked there was absolutely no heat issues especially for the 500kva amp running continuously at high volume.


My second test was to combine the UMC-200 with my old AVR-5803 as a power amp.
I was surprise to feel more heat radiating from the 5803 than I’ve been used to after owning it for nine years. Then I realized I never used its main amps back then, I always used my (cool) Yamaha MX-1 amp for that purpose.


By realizing that the 4520 is not much worse than the 5803 when it comes to heat, I decided go back to my original set up once I ship out the UPA-700 and the UMC-200 to their owner.



I’ll be setting up the 4520 with the MX-1 to Bi-Amp the Left and Right main speakers, the 4520 L+R to Bi-Amp the center and the rest of the surrounds.

One thing I know for sure, if the 4520 fails and Denon refuses to take care of it, I know I’ll never replace it with another receiver. Pre/Pro with separate amps is the only way to go. It’s cost effective and much more reliable.
Edited by Joe6P - 3/21/13 at 10:38am
post #3677 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post


One thing I know for sure, if the 4520 fails and Denon refuses to take care of it, I know I’ll never replace it with another receiver. Pre/Pro with separate amps is the only way to go. It’s cost effective and much more reliable.

All of my amps are Emotiva, and am always recommending them. I've been happy for many years, and wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. With that said, had the UMC/XMC been better executed, I would have went down that route too. I honestly think if their XMC ever comes out, especially at the $1500 price mark, that will be a hard sell considering the price of a 4520 when marked down.

I'll be ordering the 4520 very soon, and I can tell you that if I have one issue I will be returning it, and will be back to square one on a purchase decision. I really wish Pioneer would abandon MCACC in lieu of Audyssey.
post #3678 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

All of my amps are Emotiva, and am always recommending them. I've been happy for many years, and wouldn't hesitate to buy another one. With that said, had the UMC/XMC been better executed, I would have went down that route too. I honestly think if their XMC ever comes out, especially at the $1500 price mark, that will be a hard sell considering the price of a 4520 when marked down.

I'll be ordering the 4520 very soon, and I can tell you that if I have one issue I will be returning it, and will be back to square one on a purchase decision. I really wish Pioneer would abandon MCACC in lieu of Audyssey.

As long as you know you can return it with no hustle and you have the time and energy dealing with it might be worth the try.
I have a love/hate relational with the 4520; it’s like being married to a gorgeous wife you don’t trust.
I know many who rolled their eyes when I started identifying problems with the unit are having their own doubts now.
There are many sweet things about the 4520 that I love but Denon didn’t go the extra mile to test its reliability and address small but irritating issues like HDMI compatibilities, audio leaks, hums and vibrations not to mentions their quality control shipping them out DOA.
I wonder what respectable parents would label their own kids like in A and B stock….

Good luck with your purchase and keep us informed.
post #3679 of 7683
Just bumping this...

It seems that every time I come out of stand-by, it reverts to multi-zone 'on'. Anyway to keep the other zones off, for now?


Quote:
What is the easiest way to turn multi-zone off? Couldn't see it in the manual.

I occasionally find it useful to use the InstaPrevue feature. This will not work when Zone 4 is active. I have been pressing Zone Select on the remote and hitting power button to turn them off. Though they keep turning back on - perhaps when coming out of the unit's standby mode? Admittedly, my 22 month old occasionally gets hold of the remote, so could be him.

I note on the front display it advises multi zone, so is there an easier way to keep these off (until I set up my zone 2, at least)?
post #3680 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by Was_There_Then View Post

Just bumping this...

It seems that every time I come out of stand-by, it reverts to multi-zone 'on'. Anyway to keep the other zones off, for now?

 

Are you using a Harmony remote?  See this post:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/2310#post_22870422

post #3681 of 7683
Austin Jerry,
I'm having the same problem with powering on the other zones. Which buttons on the remote are discreet on/off so I can relearn on the Harmony?
Thanks
post #3682 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Are you using a Harmony remote?  See this post:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/2310#post_22870422

Thanks, that would be the cause.... though not sure how to just turn on Main Zone, even using the Denon remote?
post #3683 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Austin Jerry,
I'm having the same problem with powering on the other zones. Which buttons on the remote are discreet on/off so I can relearn on the Harmony?
Thanks

 

IIRC, select Main Zone on the original remote.  On the Harmony, use the original remote's power on button to learn the "Power On" command, not the "Power Toggle" command.

post #3684 of 7683
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Strange thing happened when I got my new turntable (Marantz TT15S1 Reference Series).

When I cranked up the volume to near reference (since the phono input is so much quieter then the hdmi inputs for some reason), the turntable would HUM at 0db when I touched the carbon arm.

If I touched the metal nothing would happen.

So obviously I thought a grounding issue with the marantz, so I double checked everything, pulled out the multi meter, verified the ground paths, everything was fine. Hum still was present when I touched the carbon arm (only noticeable from -15db getting louder as approaching 0db).

I thought obviously a defective unit, so off I went to the dealer. We checked their unit, and it was not exhibiting the same noise situation (plugged into a Marantz AVR).

Here is where things get strange. I asked to hook my turntable up to their unit, and sure enough at 0db, no noise on their setup.

We tried another AVR, same result no noise.

So when I got home , I hooked everything BACK up , verified continuity between the ground paths. Sure enough, it HUMS at 0db when touching the carbon arm.

Anyone have an idea? Just an interior phono stage?

Does anyone have a turntable where they could try this out with their AVR-4520ci, and see their results?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

When I played a record for the first time today I had very bad hum using the same connections that worked perfectly with the 3311. When I grounded directly to the receiver it went away so I had to run a 30' ground wire from the AVR to the turntable. It was a nuisance because I had to redo everything in these PITA raceway covers but it did eliminate the hum. So are you grounded directly to the receiver? Also, this phono input is not dead silent like the 3311 was. At reference there is still some minor noise but it's listenable (is that a word?).

Yup my turntable has 2 grounds, one from the RCA, one from the Spindle setup. Both are ran to the receivers ground.

Tried it on another friends receiver today (another Marantz), no issue, no hum. Hooked mine back up, and sure enough HUM only when I touch the carbon arm. Otherwise pretty quiet.
post #3685 of 7683
kamiraa,

I don't see any explicit mention of where your turntable is getting its power. If you haven't already, try plugging it into the same power strip as the receiver.
post #3686 of 7683
Think Twice Before Buying the 4520 or Any Denon Product

That sentence might throw some Denon fan boys into a defensive posture but since I have owned 5 Denon AV Receivers with my first being the 3805 and my current being the ever so problematic 4520, of which I will be getting a 4th replacement soon, I am going to share my experience with dealing with support so that those who are thinking about buying a Denon product have an understanding of what they will have to go through if a problem should arise with that product. This post is written by an American customer, so I'd also love to hear about some European experiences with Denon.

1st, Denon support at 201-762-6665 is located in Texas and the support people are very nice to deal with. I applaud Denon for not sending me to a call center in another country and employing Americans. However, these folks are only running through a list on a computer screen to troubleshoot your problem, and that is fine for 1st level technical support. When they run out of ideas they put you on hold and will go ask someone with a little more knowledge about what to try next. When they exhaust their options they simply say send it in for service. Here are my gripes about that:

- Sending a 30 to 50 lb. receiver via FedEx or UPS is expensive. In fact, to send the 4520 from PA to NJ, one state away will cost $50. Now keep in mind since my 4520 is so new I did not have to pay for any shipping.

- There is no way to talk to a higher level support person. For example, when I had problems with my 4306 many years ago I was emailed a program that flashed the unit using a straight cable to the RS232 port on the receiver. Since I have an IT background I have no problems trying more technical solutions. However, Denon must want to protect itself and refuses to allow customers to do more in depth troubleshooting.

- Why is it here in the US we have only one choice to update the firmware on all the new Denon receivers, that is over the Internet, where the European Denon site allows users with a valid serial number to download and flash the receiver via a USB stick. That is simply stupid.

2nd. When you call in for support and then proceed with the troubleshooting steps that fail, the support agent must then type up your request and forward it to upper management for review. So, it takes anywhere from 3-5 days before you get a response. For example, I called Denon on Monday to request my 4th unit. I had not heard back from them at all. I call today, 5 days later and ask to speak to one of these managers and am told he is busy on the phone getting my shipping authorization. C'mon Denon, there has got to be a process in place that streamlines the return process. Are you saying all cases are reviewed by management to then decide a course of action. It should be as simple as customer calls, unit defective, issue RMA and shipping label and then follow up with the customer.

To say I'm frustrated with this company is an understatement and has really soured my love of the brand. If the next 4520 I receive gives me any problems at all I will then request a refund and move on. This was my experience, your mileage may vary.

Jerry
post #3687 of 7683
Yikes...
post #3688 of 7683
The experiences people have been describing have reminded me of the Longfellow poem about a little girl with a little curl:
Quote:
And when she was good, she was very, very good,
But when she was bad she was horrid.
post #3689 of 7683
That sucks, I sure hope your situation is the exception rather than the rule.
post #3690 of 7683
It sucks so many people are having issues. My last 3 denons i had no problems with and now I own the 4520 and have had it for 2 months without any issues. Maybe im just lucky or its just the fact that only the people with problems are posting and not the people that own the 4520 with no problems.

I hope people get their issues resolved because the 4520 imo is a great receiver and i love it!
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