or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 161

post #4801 of 7869
Hey guys, sorry if this questions answer is obvious, but when gaming through this receiver in Game Mode, does it leave the signal completely untouched adding 0 lag time or does it add some? Has anyone compared lag test results between running a PS3 through this avr in game mode and bypassing the avr completely?
post #4802 of 7869
Quote:
are you selecting the 5.1 audio feed when you pick the selection in Netflix (it has to chosen each time).

Where in Netflix do you make that selection?
I'm not sure that's the problem because I have the same issue with Amazon but I don't remember seeing any kind of audio options for individual movies in Netflix.
post #4803 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bboy_jonno View Post

Hey guys, sorry if this questions answer is obvious, but when gaming through this receiver in Game Mode, does it leave the signal completely untouched adding 0 lag time or does it add some? Has anyone compared lag test results between running a PS3 through this avr in game mode and bypassing the avr completely?

Can't speak to the actual lag amount (if any), but the GAME surround mode refers more to the how the audio is treated while the Video Mode setting (p. 131 OM) when set to GAME would help to minimize any lag.
post #4804 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Where in Netflix do you make that selection?
I'm not sure that's the problem because I have the same issue with Amazon but I don't remember seeing any kind of audio options for individual movies in Netflix.

I gave up on Netflix a long time ago (too dated); however, pulled the below using Google ....
Quote:
In the title screen for a Netflix title that offers 5.1 choose "audio and subtitles" and then select 5.1 audio.
post #4805 of 7869
DUHHHHHHHHH.................................Thank you
post #4806 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bboy_jonno View Post

Hey guys, sorry if this questions answer is obvious, but when gaming through this receiver in Game Mode, does it leave the signal completely untouched adding 0 lag time or does it add some? Has anyone compared lag test results between running a PS3 through this avr in game mode and bypassing the avr completely?

The time lag is a bit "too much". It is because of its 3-stage DSP processing that Denon calls DDSC-HD32. I would opine that the lag is 3 times what is commonly found from other receivers with only 1 DSP processor.

Playing using one of the DIRECT MODEs might help because there would be less (or no) DSP processing involved.
post #4807 of 7869
How much time 3 Vs. 1?
post #4808 of 7869
Hmmmm, I think I see something "very disturbing" with the Denon/Marantz amplifiers starting with the receivers from 2-generations ago.

I think their amplifiers are designed by ONKYO engineers! if not then they must have hired saboteurs!
With one diagram that I am looking at now, I see tell-tale stuffs of what ONKYOs are usually made of.

Here is an example: Below is the Input-Stage of the amplifier of a Denon/Marantz receiver.


This would make a very "jittery"/"noisy" amplifier with that signal-clamp circuit. That would change the behaviour of the amplifier four (4) times each cycle when fed anything more than around 650 miilivolts - which is way below the usual 0db full-scale.

Not everyone likes 4th-harmonic distortion of unknown shape and magnitude plus a spray of nth-order harminc distortions as well.

[Part code is OPEN] Thanks goodness - at least one decent employee decided not to obey the design and left-out that stupid signal clamp circuit.

I do not like it at all. They are recruiting the bad ones.

I'd look for Phillips stuff next time if this madness of Denon/Marantz does not stop. It appears like that's the only place for decent "audio equipment" engineers nowadays.

I am sure that there are engineers out there. Please chime in... even if to say that my "reading" of the diagram is incorrect or flawed.
I beg you to please tell me that my analysis is wrong otherwise I would have to warn everyone NOT TO BUY DENON/MARANTZ receivers of recent vintage if they want decent amplifier sound from them and if they cannot make the necessary mods.

As designed, in theory at least, the amplifiers can be provoked to produce the "nasty" kind of distortion that increases in "nastiness" as the volume is increased. My AVR4520 performed as theoretically predicted when using any of the DSP modes.

For good sound, use only with analogue sources in DIRECT modes, else use external amps of better quality.
Edited by aringgo - 6/14/13 at 5:26pm
post #4809 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

How much time 3 Vs. 1?

Sorry, I can't honestly say the lag times in number of milliseconds as I do not have that physical speed to read-off from an ordinary watch. The lag times vary with each specific DSP mode.

Here is one "technically accurate" measure of the lag times of the 4520 - My wife found it impossible to use the 4520 as a karaoke sing-along in any of the DSP modes.
If not for the DIRECT MODEs, she'd ask the older unit to be put back in the lounge room. (LOL!)
Edited by aringgo - 6/13/13 at 2:32pm
post #4810 of 7869
Ordered mine today will arrive next week!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
post #4811 of 7869
I see, thanks for the replies, I might set up 2 hdmi when I set up my projector and test both ways.
post #4812 of 7869
aringgo,

Don't forget that many, perhaps most, people don't use analog inputs at all any more. HDMI, for all its problems, is taking over.

Of course, the 4520 (and 8801) tend to be purchased by people who have many legacy devices, some with only analog outputs.

Are the multichannel analog inputs the same as the stereo input circuits?

From your description of the difference between the schematic and the circuit board, I suspect that they're already introducing ECOs to improve the design and simply haven't bothered to provide up-to-date schematics.
post #4813 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

aringgo,

Don't forget that many, perhaps most, people don't use analog inputs at all any more. HDMI, for all its problems, is taking over.

Of course, the 4520 (and 8801) tend to be purchased by people who have many legacy devices, some with only analog outputs.

Are the multichannel analog inputs the same as the stereo input circuits?

From your description of the difference between the schematic and the circuit board, I suspect that they're already introducing ECOs to improve the design and simply haven't bothered to provide up-to-date schematics.

There's one other reason, albeit esoteric someone might use multichannel analog inputs: if an AVR was being used as a de facto amp, with a separate pre/pro as the source. Of course, then you miss out on having the 4520 apply Audyssey processing.
post #4814 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

There's one other reason, albeit esoteric someone might use multichannel analog inputs: if an AVR was being used as a de facto amp, with a separate pre/pro as the source. Of course, then you miss out on having the 4520 apply Audyssey processing.
For zones 2/3, you must use analog inputs. For all my HDMI inputs, I have secondary analog connections to support zone 2.
post #4815 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

aringgo,

..
Are the multichannel analog inputs the same as the stereo input circuits?

From your description of the difference between the schematic and the circuit board, I suspect that they're already introducing ECOs to improve the design and simply haven't bothered to provide up-to-date schematics.

Hi Selden,

1. Yes, all the input circuits of all the 9 on-board power amplifiers ofthe AVR4520 are all the same. In fact, all nine amplifiers are completely the same. Every speaker that one connects to the AVR4520 uses one of the 9 amplifiers. So whatever sound that comes out of the speakers when connected to the AVR4520 has passed thru a terribly flawed Input-Stage circuit. I hope that someone can honestly disproves me for the sake of those who cannot modify theirs.
2. I thought so too. I myself was deceived in assuming that they would only attempt to improve their products as technology progresses, so I was not paying much attention to the amplifier circuits before now. Amplifier design has been a real "science" for almost 40 years now and so I thought.
Only after buying my own AVR4520 that I critically looked at the amplifier design after I heard "tell-tale" theoretical/predicted distortions of poor amplifier design. To my horror, I found out a "misguided" use of a new Toshiba differential-pair component that is being sold for "general audio applications" (for childrens' toys) that fits into the diagram perfectly. (BTW, I am not having a go at Toshiba. Genuine Toshiba's semiconductors are the most prized components in the HIFI community. It's the misguided use of .. that I am concerned about)

That discovery motivated me to join this forum to share what I discovered and perhaps teach others how to fix theirs.

In short, the diagrams are accurate. The AVR4520, whether in the diagram or on the board, also has the worst flaws of audio amplifier designs. I really think that the reason for this backward step is "profits" and engineers without conscience, or simply bad engineers.

All Denon/Marantz receivers that came out from around 2011, that I looked at, use the same flawed Input-Stage circuit whether or not using discrete parts or Toshiba's or Korean clone of Toshiba's differential-amp chip for toys.

They all use un-degenerated emitters in the "differential pair" of the Input-Stage which, by the way, is the most critical part of the amplifier in terms of controlling distortion (after of course having appropriately attended to the "basics"). They also used a CAPACITOR BETWEEN THE BASES of the differential pair - which to me should be considered a crime - but they had to in order to alleviate unacceptably poor performance without it. Their engineers are guilty beyond ...
Edited by aringgo - 6/14/13 at 7:25pm
post #4816 of 7869
Prologue:

After painfully debating with myself whether or not to publish this material - I have come to the decision to "put it out there" to be studied, validated or debunked. My aim is to inform the readers.


** WARNING **

This material contains texts that may be critical of the Denon AVR-4520 amplifier design.


The author also wishes to advise readers that the listening experiences presented here are subjective observations only.


B.4 Amplifier Architecture:

In general, the structure of a typical audio power amplifier consists of three functional stages
1) the Input stage,
2) the ‘v’oltage ‘a’mplification ‘s’tage (VAS), and
3) the Output stage.

D. Self research works have measured and characterised the distortions that emanate from these stages. Fortunately, due to his scientific methods of discovery, remedies to some of the ills have become obvious to amplifier designers.

Input Stage Distortion

D. Self concludes that in the vast majority of production amplifiers the small-signal amplifier stage (Input Stage) can generate significant distortions that exceed all others.

He has determined that, and I quote:

“If the Input-Stage is a carefully-balanced differential pair then the distortion is typically only measurable at high frequency, rises at 18dB/octave and almost pure 3rd harmonic.

Exact DC balance of the input diff pair is essential to not seriously upset 2nd-harmonic distortion cancellation.”

Below is a graph comparing the distortions due to varying degrees of imbalance of the Input Stage “differential pair”.

Less imbalance moves the distortion up to the in-audible high frequencies, while more imbalance causes distortions to rise above the ”noise-floor” earlier in the audible band, as early as 2khz according to the graph below.



B.5 what gives “that” AVR4520 Sound

The 4520’s Input Stage is definitely not “carefully-balanced”. The manufacturer of the input stage differential pair, Toshiba, does not claim that they are.

Although Toshiba’s audio semiconductor devices are generally most prized in the audio DIY community, this particular “differential pair” used in the AVR 4520 is not suitable for use in hi-fi audio amplification.

It does not allow the connection of additional and necessary emitter resistors that will make the gain of each of the transistors in the “differential pair” to match up. Emitter degeneration resistors will allow the gain of the transistors to be NOT dependent on random variations of the transistors’ beta.

The datasheet of the device shows that the gains of each element range from 200 to 700. One would need thousands of pieces of these to start with in order to find a few “carefully-matched/balanced” ones! Each AVR4520 needs 9 carefully balanced pairs.

Here are some excerpts of what scientists say about emitter degeneration that you will find in http://whites.sdsmt.edu/classes/ee320/notes/320lecture19.pdf - “because of ... It can be shown that the gain is less sensitive to variations in beta.
... another benefit of emitter degeneration: the amplifier can handle larger input signals without incurring non-linear distortion)

D. Self would characterise the use of the non-emitter-degenerated component in audio equipment as a “misguided” attempt to reduce size and/or cost. It should not be fitted to hi-fidelity audio amplification devices.

Using my favourite “diagnostic” musical materials, I can hear and identify distortions from my AVR that are consistent with the graphs above , and as generally predicted by the theoretical behaviour of the” non-emitter-degenerated” Input Stage circuits.

Denon, however, saw it fit to also put in fixes or additions that will counter some of the most objectionable ills of their chosen Input Stage component.

1) They put in a larger than normal “low-pass filter” in front of the Input Stage.
The usual purpose of this filter is to stop radio signals from coming in so that your receiver’s amplifiers do not output noise coming from a mish-mash of un-tuned radio stations and cb radios.

AVR4520’s RF filter cuts in at 106khz. The typical setting of most HI-FI gears is usually around the 1 mhz mark.

It is common convention among amplifier designers and builders to set this filter higher than 500 khz so as not to negatively affect any part of the signal that is still in the audible band.
Setting this filter too low as in the AVR4520’s 106 khz will affect the “phase coherence” of signals still within the audible frequencies, that I estimate roughly, around the 7khz mark and up.

But in the 4520 case, I think, Denon got the balance just right.

Most of older people’s hearing could have already deteriorated at the negatively affected frequency ranges.

Setting it very low also solved the problem of the “nastiest” kind of distortion. The filter effectively did a double-duty of also guarding the 4520 from attempting to reproduce signals that can provoke the “nasty” kind of distortions. To some degree – this Denon’s fix works.

Because of this fix and the amplifiers’ relatively low noise-floor:
o The dialogues are clearer, and
o The rendition of complex music material relatively more precise.


The latter observation is true with the AVR4520 only when playing music sources connected via the analogue input terminals.
The AVR4520 amplifiers may not be able to render complex musical sounds with good precision if they are even only slightly polluted with very high frequency noise like the kind that comes from its oversampling DAC circuitry.

2) They also put in a couple “KLUDGEs” to help prevent the whole amplifier circuit from disastrously mis-behaving.

All over-sampling DACs inherently produce ‘h’igh ‘f’requency (HF) noise. Some of the HF noise generated by the DACs, as a matter of course, will reach the amplifiers.

Because of the attached “kludges”, the AVR4520 amplifiers perform poorly when amplifying signals coming from its digital circuits. The signals contain some amounts of HF noise.
Nasty distortions can be provoked by even just small amounts of these high frequency noise generated by the oversampling DAC circuitry.

The receiver's amplifiers will show a tendency to “screech” at louder volume settings. Surrounds no longer sound as “sweet” when compared to your receiver of 2-generations ago despite their surround algorithms remaining the same.


On the left is a diagram of the Input Stage of a Denon receiver’s amplifier from 2 generations ago. On the right is the AVR 4520’s.

Although the vertical orientation of the diagrams are in opposite directions, the orientations have no bearing or relevance on the meaning of the diagrams.

The elements circled in BLUE comprise what is called the “differential pair”. The 4520’s “differential pair” does not have the mandatory emitter resistors (represented by the zig-zag lines) that would make the Input Stage circuitry to behave in a non-distorting linear way even when presented with larger input signals.

The RED circle mark one of a few “kludges” in the 4520’s amplifiers that serve to tame potentially disastrously bad behaviours due to the absence of the emitter resistors.
This one ”kludge” identified here could also provoke some distortions when the amplifier is presented with very high frequency (HF) noise – of the kind that the oversampling DACs create. Some of the HF noise that is not caught by the low-pass filter in front of it will find themselves reaching the other side at around 90 degrees off-phase to be amplified at 180 degrees more off again - then again will be fed back via the global ‘N’egative ‘F’eed ‘B’ack (NFB) to this point – but some of that NFB signal also reaches the other side onto the front of the amplifier via the same “kludge” to pollute any and all good signals coming in – to be amplified and qualified according to this polluted signal to find its way to the end then to the front to pollute incoming signals – in a merry-go-round of pollution that relates to the original good signal only in a very complex way.

WHEW! Nasty! This Input Stage does not belong in high-fidelity sound reproduction equipment.
It could, perhaps, be put to good use in fertilizer mixers instead.




[Next Installment] Part 3: Fixing this nasty “misguided” Input Stage

for less than $5 worth of parts per channel,
and/or a potential loss of $2500.
Edited by aringgo - 6/14/13 at 8:30pm
post #4817 of 7869

Aringgo, in order to add to the credibility of your reports, it would be interesting for you to share with us your credentials.  How can we be sure that you don't have an ulterior motive for revealing what seems to be knowledgeable information, yet most of us will not have the audio engineering expertise to know if what we are reading is credible or not.

 

If someone were to walk up to me and claim to be able to diagnose a fatal illness that I have, I would want to know the reliability of the diagnosis by gaining knowledge of the person's education, degrees, experience, etc.

 

And why are you sharing this information?  Am I better off knowing that the equipment that I have is flawed?  Should I divest myself of my 4520, buy some other brand, and hope you don't appear down the road in that owner's thread with bad news about my purchase?

 

I'm not trying to be disrespectful.  I'm just trying to understand how we are better off with these reports you have produced.

post #4818 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Aringgo, in order to add to the credibility of your reports, it would be interesting for you to share with us your credentials.  How can we be sure that you don't have an ulterior motive for revealing what seems to be knowledgeable information, yet most of us will not have the audio engineering expertise to know if what we are reading is credible or not.

If someone were to walk up to me and claim to be able to diagnose a fatal illness that I have, I would want to know the reliability of the diagnosis by gaining knowledge of the person's education, degrees, experience, etc.

And why are you sharing this information?  Am I better off knowing that the equipment that I have is flawed?  Should I divest myself of my 4520, buy some other brand, and hope you don't appear down the road in that owner's thread with bad news about my purchase?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful.  I'm just trying to understand how we are better off with these reports you have produced.

+1
post #4819 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Aringgo, in order to add to the credibility of your reports, it would be interesting for you to share with us your credentials.  How can we be sure that you don't have an ulterior motive for revealing what seems to be knowledgeable information, yet most of us will not have the audio engineering expertise to know if what we are reading is credible or not.

If someone were to walk up to me and claim to be able to diagnose a fatal illness that I have, I would want to know the reliability of the diagnosis by gaining knowledge of the person's education, degrees, experience, etc.

And why are you sharing this information?  Am I better off knowing that the equipment that I have is flawed?  Should I divest myself of my 4520, buy some other brand, and hope you don't appear down the road in that owner's thread with bad news about my purchase?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful.  I'm just trying to understand how we are better off with these reports you have produced.

OK - That's precisely the question that I debated with myself - Even if the information is correct, "How could the reader be better off in practical sense?"

My honest answer is I do not really know. I might go to heaven for imparting knowledge, or I might go to hell for making perfectly satisfied AVR4520 owners unhappy. The human mind, they say, has infinite capacity to fool itself. I once tried to believe that I was not really hearing the distortion that I was hearing.

I also bought an AVR4520 with my own hard-earned money. I'd be more careful with my purchases next time, so do not expect to find me in another forum to criticise another purchase of mine.

My credentials are right there in front of you. Have my work validated by someone YOU trust. Like I already informed you - you must be smarter than checking my "credentials" your way because I can lie.

That is why, so as to avoid silly unhelpful questions about credentials, I AM PLEADING for anyone out there, especially qualified engineers, to please join in and disprove the information that I am dishing out for the sake of the AVR4520 owners. All the specific design details / facts are already presented for anybody else to analyse. How could I be hiding anything?

[detailed info about myself was here for more than a couple of hours .. but I wish to remain anonymous to most readers. I believe that some individuals have successfully identified me already, and I think that some engineers have already been consulted as well, noone has yet claimed or found that my analysis is incorrect, yet still, I could be wrong. I will now remove my identifying details as they are not necessary for checking the veracity of my contributions]
I strongly urge readers to heed my warnings about the intended audience of this amateur research work".
Edited by aringgo - 6/15/13 at 3:58am
post #4820 of 7869
Hi,

Can't we consider X4000 while considering 4250?
post #4821 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Aringgo, in order to add to the credibility of your reports, it would be interesting for you to share with us your credentials.  How can we be sure that you don't have an ulterior motive for revealing what seems to be knowledgeable information, yet most of us will not have the audio engineering expertise to know if what we are reading is credible or not.

Frankly, I don't care what the OP's credentials are. I think I have sufficient credentials (Essentiallly a BSEE and 4 credits shy of a masters degree plus decades of hands-on experience developing and testing power amps) to have a relevant opinion in this matter. IME there are talented amateurs whose actual accomplishments vastly outshine those of people with credentials that look good on paper.

The reason why is that the school I graduated from didn't give out what they callled BSEEs and AFAIK 45 years later they still don't. They were non-traditional, and about close as you could get was called a BSE with an emphasis in Electrical Engineering, or some such. The actual emphasis of my undergraduate and graduate work was dynamic systems and control system engineering or something like that. I don't think my diploma even says that, it just says BSE and love it or leave it. If memory serves, no employer actually ever asked to look at it. It was like 45 years ago anyhow, and to put this into perspective much of what I learned about active devices related to tubes, and such SS devices as we worked with were made out of germanium. What I learned after graduation has a lot more to do with what is happening in audio today, and a fairly literate and ambitious GED certificate holder could self-educate himself to and beyond my level.

While I have the utmost respect for the theoretical analyses of Douglas Self, Marshall Leach and Robert Cordell (especially the former), I have far more respect for well-done listening tests. Models are great helps, but actual performance in real world applications is what counts. The bottom line is that you don't need a power amp with even one zero after the decimal point and before the first non-zero digit in order to have something that will pass a comparison with a straight wire. I know this for sure based on actual listening tests involving dozens of experienced audiophiles. The often-maligned LIn circuit suffices.

Secondly, the test results shown just maybe could be obtained by running the amp just below clipping at low frequencies and just above clipping at higher frequencies. I'm not saying that is how the results were developed, I'm just saying that I'm not convinced that they weren't obtained that way. I'm not sure either way. Convince me! ;-)

Reality is that a power amp that is going to have a characteristic sound in the real world as most people use it has do whatever audible screwing up it does at 5-10 dB below clipping and get worse as power goes up from there. Why? Because if you actually look at the power people run their amps at even during crescendos, you often see power levels in the 20-50 watt range. With musical signals, even momentary peaks usually max out well below that. lots of people who design power amps don't know who Doug Self is or don't give him the respect he deserves. Some are good enough that they don't need to know who Self is, but that doesn't mean that their designs sound bad or have audible coloration. Again a reasonble power amp design is clean enough that it will sound good even if it is more than a little suboptimal.

So, bring on those well-done listening tests, and if you can make a bad sounding amp sound good by adding a few 2 cent resistors, then I salute you!
post #4822 of 7869
Thread Starter 
Now Arny Kreuger -- there's a man who doesn't need to remain anonymous in Internet forums or have his credentials verified. Thanks for showing up.

I read a lot of technical hoo ha (the accuracy or relevance of which I am unqualified to evaluate) blending with a lot of melodramatic proclamations (it's a crime! they have no conscience! night and day!) which IMO do more to make me tune this out that anything else. But what I DON'T see are well conducted, *properly controlled* listening tests to verify whether any of this spilled ink results in anything that is actually audible / relevant to a real 4520 owner. No disrespect to arringo who seems to be genuine with his intentions and fairly reasonable, but I sense a lot of potential paranoid alarmism from otherwise satisfied 4520 owners who now are infused with self doubt over some theoretical failure in their receiver that they have no reason to be unhappy with.
post #4823 of 7869
Well said Batpig.
post #4824 of 7869
At my age, I would be incredibly happy to be able to hear these faults in a receiver!!
smile.gif
post #4825 of 7869
Approaching the need for TV Ears are we? biggrin.gif
post #4826 of 7869
I gave it a quick going over. But it mostly went way over my head. While his intentions may be honorable I think he's venturing into waters that will only cause more trouble than it's worth. There are some things people just don't want to know about. My guess is you could disect and analyze the schematics of just about anything and find something to be concerned about. They're all cutting corners in order to add features while keeping the cost down. Even though I'm one of those knuckleheads who thinks he can hear a bit of a difference between some receiver brands, in reality, they're all pretty good. For those without a 4520, that makes for interesting reading. For those with one, don't give it a second thought. Just go enjoy the type of receiver the rest of us wish we had.
post #4827 of 7869
Double post again. I'm supposed to try Chrome but I keep forgetting!
post #4828 of 7869
Is there a link to where arringos post came from? And is this something that can actually be discernable? And BTW, WTF is "Kludge"???
post #4829 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Now Arny Kreuger -- there's a man who doesn't need to remain anonymous in Internet forums or have his credentials verified. Thanks for showing up.

I read a lot of technical hoo ha (the accuracy or relevance of which I am unqualified to evaluate) blending with a lot of melodramatic proclamations (it's a crime! they have no conscience! night and day!) which IMO do more to make me tune this out that anything else. But what I DON'T see are well conducted, *properly controlled* listening tests to verify whether any of this spilled ink results in anything that is actually audible / relevant to a real 4520 owner. No disrespect to arringo who seems to be genuine with his intentions and fairly reasonable, but I sense a lot of potential paranoid alarmism from otherwise satisfied 4520 owners who now are infused with self doubt over some theoretical failure in their receiver that they have no reason to be unhappy with.

BINGO!
post #4830 of 7869
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Aringgo, in order to add to the credibility of your reports, it would be interesting for you to share with us your credentials. 

There are plenty of people on this forum who have credentials but never post them, who cares in the end. It's a public forum. It's all education in the end.

I agree with the statement previously posted, there are talented amateurs that can run circles around some EEs.

I can say that a majority of his research looks great for a amateur, it is though lacking sometimes in a full conclusion or layout. But, in all honesty he isn't producing a white paper here, hes just having fun.

I have my bachelor and master degree in EE from a top 5 school and work in the space industry. I'm not going to model all his "upgrades" to give physical impedance plots, frequency responses, etc. But, it is education reading and bring some fun to this thread.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread