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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 166

post #4951 of 7730
Batpig, you're right on both counts. I was referring to DTS Neo:X Cinema and I had the gain set to zero which I now understand means that it does not matrix any sound to the center when the input source is stereo. It makes sense now but I didn't get that before. It's confusing because that "center gain" option only appears when the source is stereo. If the source is DD, which most HD is, you get "bass synch & low frequency effect" options instead of the center gain option.
FWIW I think it sounds best with the gain at .3 or .4 so most of the sound still comes from the R/L speakers. And again the imaging is so good that I had no idea nothing was coming from the center until I put my ear right up to the speaker.
Since I have your attention what does the "bass synch & LF effects" do and how in the hell do you know all this stuff? cool.gif I've had this AVR for a few months now; I should know this stuff.
Edited by DougReim - 6/25/13 at 6:30pm
post #4952 of 7730
I'm experiencing the best center channel clarity I've ever had with Audyssey XT32....and DTS Neo:X ( just FYI ).
post #4953 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I'm experiencing the best center channel clarity I've ever had with Audyssey XT32....and DTS Neo:X ( just FYI ).


Craig,


Are you saying that the 4520CI "in general" due to XT32 is providing you with the best center channel clarity that you have ever had or did you recently invoke some of the features such as dialog enhancement or some other sort of tweak?


...Glenn smile.gif
post #4954 of 7730
Hi Craig,
How do you like the Dialog Enhancer?
I've only fooled around with it a few times so far but it seems to me that it enhances the dialog somewhat at the expense of other material. I don't know how to put it exactly but it seemed to me that with the enhancer on the effects and transient sounds were lacking something????
Just my take after limited experimentation, might have been my imagination.
post #4955 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Batpig, you're right on both counts. I was referring to DTS Neo:X Cinema and I had the gain set to zero which I now understand means that it does not matrix any sound to the center when the input source is stereo. It makes sense now but I didn't get that before. It's confusing because that "center gain" option only appears when the source is stereo. If the source is DD, which most HD is, you get "bass synch & low frequency effect" options instead of the center gain option.
FWIW I think it sounds best with the gain at .3 or .4 so most of the sound still comes from the R/L speakers. And again the imaging is so good that I had no idea nothing was coming from the center until I put my ear right up to the speaker.
Since I have your attention what does the "bass synch & LF effects" do and how in the hell do you know all this stuff? cool.gif I've had this AVR for a few months now; I should know this stuff.

I understand you mean Neo:X now, thanks for clarifying. I just checked on my system, and when playing a stereo source in Neo:X Music mode, the center channel setting is .3. This must be the default setting, since I have never noticed it before (and I rarely use Neo:X).
post #4956 of 7730
Quote:
This must be the default setting, since I have never noticed it before (and I rarely use Neo:X).

Jerry,
You may be right. When I first got the receiver I remember setting the gain to 0 thinking that was the most natural point and I pretty much forgot about it until BP brought it up tonight. Unfortunately I don't remember what the default number was before I changed it.
I'm curious as to what mode you like if not the Neo?
I still play around with the different modes but I mostly come back to Neo:X.
post #4957 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post


Jerry,
You may be right. When I first got the receiver I remember setting the gain to 0 thinking that was the most natural point and I pretty much forgot about it until BP brought it up tonight. Unfortunately I don't remember what the default number was before I changed it.
I'm curious as to what mode you like if not the Neo?
I still play around with the different modes but I mostly come back to Neo:X.

 

For 2-channel music sources, I listen either in PLII Music, or Stereo.  I don't find that extending the music signal to a full 11.1 configuration adds anything--quite the contrary, it makes the music sound less like I expect the mixers intended it to sound.

 

For Cinema, I am usually running in DSX Heights+Wides mode.

 

Of course, this is all a personal preference thing, and could easily vary depending on one's equipment and listening room.


Edited by AustinJerry - 6/26/13 at 6:37am
post #4958 of 7730
I absolutely agree with you for 2 channel music. I almost always listen to music in plain old stereo.
I guess "old habits die hard" because after listening to music for 40+ years nothing else feels right with music.
post #4959 of 7730
Hi everyone,

I haven't posted much, but this thread made me think that the 4520ci was the best choice for me. I recently ordered one from AV Science, and it came quickly (thanks, Mike). However, upon hooking it up and turning it on, there is no display--at all. I tried the dimmer button, resetting the microprocessor, yelling at it, everything. I can't get anything on the display--it's blank. I searched this forum and others, and it looks like maybe others have had this issue, but I can't find a solution.

Any suggestions? Or did I get a bum unit?

Many thanks,
-Jack
post #4960 of 7730
Quote:
Hi Craig,
How do you like the Dialog Enhancer?
I've only fooled around with it a few times so far but it seems to me that it enhances the dialog somewhat at the expense of other material. I don't know how to put it exactly but it seemed to me that with the enhancer on the effects and transient sounds were lacking something????
Just my take after limited experimentation, might have been my imagination.

I played with Dialog Enhancer a little tonite. Not only do I not like it ( it skews the sound in a way I don't like ), I don't find I need it. My center channel dialog sounds much better now with the 4520 then it did a couple of weeks ago with the 4310. I've been having issues with understanding dialog - seems some movies are mixed better than others. Although my wife says I'm going deaf from having the home theater sound cranked too loud ( in my defense I have guests that had trouble understanding some dialog in Zero Dark Thirty for instance ), the center is just crisper with XT32 and the 4520.

I love the whole 11.1 speaker set up. It's more 3 dimensional sounding than my previous 7.1 setup. . Watched some of Black Hawk Down, some Master and Commander, and then got hooked watching Hero with Jet Li. Man - what a sound track - I forgot how many great scenes were in that movie ( and Itzhak Perlman's wonderfully haunting violin ). smile.gif
post #4961 of 7730
Jack - are you connected to a display with an HDMI input ??
post #4962 of 7730
So any way to do Quick Select buttons with the included 4520 remote? Still hoping for some sort of answer
post #4963 of 7730
Quote:
Craig,


Are you saying that the 4520CI "in general" due to XT32 is providing you with the best center channel clarity that you have ever had or did you recently invoke some of the features such as dialog enhancement or some other sort of tweak?


...Glenn

No tweaks - without dialog enhancer it's much improved. And I don't know why - same room, same ears, same center channel speaker. The only other thing I've changed other than replacing my 4310 with a 4520, is run new 12 gauge wire to the center ( and left / right mains too ), to replace the existing 16 gauge wire. I doubt the wire made that improvement. I think it's the fact the the Audyssey XT32 is miles ahead of the version I had in the 4310. I also noticed that the Home Theater magazine review of the Marantz 8801 mention the same thing - " hyper - realistic dialog " that sounded better than the reviewers previous pre / pro setup. Same Audyssey in the 8801.
post #4964 of 7730
Absolutely...the 4310 XT and the 4311 XT32 is apples and oranges in comparison in regards to refined, cleaner, not bloated, sound quality. cool.gif

The 4520 would have the same gains I would imagine.
post #4965 of 7730
Quote:
Absolutely...the 4310 XT and the 4311 XT32 is apples and oranges in comparison in regards to refined, cleaner, not bloated, sound quality.

The 4520 would have the same gains I would imagine.

Ya, I wasn't scheduled to upgrade my reciever when the 4311 came out - and now I should be good for a few years.

I need to experiment with Aud. DSX and Dolby Pro Logic IIx A-DSX compared to NEO:X now.
post #4966 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakenn2 View Post

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted much, but this thread made me think that the 4520ci was the best choice for me. I recently ordered one from AV Science, and it came quickly (thanks, Mike). However, upon hooking it up and turning it on, there is no display--at all. I tried the dimmer button, resetting the microprocessor, yelling at it, everything. I can't get anything on the display--it's blank. I searched this forum and others, and it looks like maybe others have had this issue, but I can't find a solution.

Any suggestions? Or did I get a bum unit?

Many thanks,
-Jack

As Craig notes, video is only possible from one of the HDMI monitor outputs. What source are you trying to pass through the AVR and how is it connected?
post #4967 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by BB1111 View Post

So any way to do Quick Select buttons with the included 4520 remote? Still hoping for some sort of answer

As noted, the remote doesn't include the Quick Select buttons, rather you would need to select them from the front panel, or as you quoted flint350, you could use the Macro buttons (p. 165 OM). Other options include using the Denon remote app from a smart phone which does include the Quick Select buttons or use a Harmony remote and download the Quick Select buttons from the 4311CI remote.
Edited by jdsmoothie - 6/26/13 at 3:05am
post #4968 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I understand you mean Neo:X now, thanks for clarifying. I just checked on my system, and when playing a stereo source in Neo:X Music mode, the center channel setting is .3. This must be the default setting, since I have never noticed it before (and I rarely use Neo:X).

Thanks for reporting this as the Owner's manual (p. 122) does not list the default setting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

For 2-channel music sources, I listen either in PLII Music, or Stereo.  I don't find that extending the music signal to a full 1.1 configuration adds anything--quite the contrary, it makes the music sound less like I expect the mixers intended it to sound.

So then ... which speaker do you use ... the FL or the FR? biggrin.gif
Edited by jdsmoothie - 6/26/13 at 3:04am
post #4969 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Since I have your attention what does the "bass synch & LF effects" do and how in the hell do you know all this stuff? cool.gif I've had this AVR for a few months now; I should know this stuff.

Per the Owner's manual (p. 121, 122) ....




post #4970 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

From the DTS website, it would seem the Neo:X Front height placement is the same as with the DD PLIIz placement (ie. directly above the FL/FR speakers) ....


The problem with this placement is that it isn't the recommended one for DSX. I like to be able to chose DSX, PLIIz, or Neo:X, depending on the content. AFAICT, neither PLIIz nor Neo:X suffers from placing the Wide speakers further towards the side wall. Has anyone compared both placements?

 

 

I think, Jerry, that Dolby are happy for you to exercise a lot of latitude with Height speaker placement. As it is all in the realm of 'preference' I think it is OK to do it any way you like - and probably the same for Neo:X. FWIW, I have had my Height speakers (for Dolby PLIIz which is what I use almost always) directly above the mains, just under ceiling height, halfway between the mains and the side walls and currently (to accommodate the PJ screen) they are almost in the corners. I have to say I haven't noticed much if a difference between any of these positions.  IOW, if you place the Heights for DSX they will probably be fine for PLIIz and Neo:X as well. IMO.

post #4971 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Jack - are you connected to a display with an HDMI input ??

Sorry--I wasn't clear. It's not the monitor display output that's the problem. It's the front LED display panel on the unit itself. Last night, it worked for about three seconds, then flickered, and then I never saw it again. I did a full microprocessor reset, and nothing. It seems to pass video just fine, but there's nothing on the front panel whether I'm using a video source or audio only (e.g., phono). The only light on the unit is the indicator light above above the power button. Dimmer button on the unit does nothing.

This is my fourth upper-end Denon receiver, and I've had good luck until now--I just want to make sure it's not operator error.

Thanks again!
-Jack
post #4972 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr07 View Post

Input is appreciated as I purchased this unit a couple of weeks ago and now have an issue with the unit turning itself on and off every 5 seconds after running for an hour or so with normal viewing....I’ve ran the gambit of troubleshooting issues….I unplugged from the power conditioner and plugged it into the wall same issue…I purchased a cooling fan to circulate the air just in case it was too hot…I re wired the speaker wire to insure nothing was touching or grounding out…I switched power cords and no change…..toggled all the zones to off and on with no difference…..so if anyone has any solutions fire away....thanks

I experienced this problem, with my first 4520. I disconnected everything from the receiver and it would still shut off, then back on. Try disconnecting everything except the power, if the unit exhibits the same behavior it needs to be replaced.

Jerry
post #4973 of 7730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I understand you mean Neo:X now, thanks for clarifying. I just checked on my system, and when playing a stereo source in Neo:X Music mode, the center channel setting is .3. This must be the default setting, since I have never noticed it before (and I rarely use Neo:X).

Thanks for reporting this as the Owner's manual (p. 122) does not list the default setting.

As an FYI -- I believe the reason the OM doesn't list the default is because the default is different for Cinema vs. Music modes.

As noted I use DTS Neo:X Cinema for 5.1 upmix of stereo sources and the default Center Gain is the max 1.0 -- which makes sense for Cinema sources that you'd want a full center channel mix, whereas in Music mode you'd get the center channel content more spread out.

In the older DTS Neo:6 the "Center Image" setting defaulted to 0.3 (again on a scale of 0.0-1.0) but it was only adjustable in Music mode, so it appears this carried over to DTS Neo:X, but they supplemented that by allowing it to be adjustable in Cinema mode as well.
post #4974 of 7730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Since I have your attention what does the "bass synch & LF effects" do and how in the hell do you know all this stuff? cool.gif I've had this AVR for a few months now; I should know this stuff.

JD already answered the settings question -- personally I wouldn't want to touch the "bass sync" setting unless I had some way to measure the effect and ensure I wasn't screwing things up.

The LFE setting is common to many receivers and allows you to directly attenuate the LFE (0.1) channel by up to 10dB.

As to how we know this stuff... it's a combination of reading the manual and being willing to obsessively try out the settings to see what they do. Open the GUI, go to the Audio settings, play with settings and walk around to the speakers and put your ear up close and hear what they do. It's the same thing with, say, learning computer software. Start pulling down those menus and clicking on options and see what happens. That kind of trial-and-error investigation helps you learn what settings do and what is possible.
post #4975 of 7730
^^
Not to mention ... it helps to learn what you as the user prefer rather than simply asking the forum "what setting should I use"?
post #4976 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Not to mention ... it helps to learn what you as the user prefer rather than simply asking the forum "what setting should I use"?

+1 to that, jd smile.gif many just want a quick "answer" or setting & they miss out learning how it all works.
post #4977 of 7730
Yup .. also not taking into account that getting advice from "old dog" ears may not necessarily be what is preferred by "young pup's" ears. smile.gif
post #4978 of 7730
Quote:
rather than simply asking the forum "what setting should I use"?


I didn't ask that but this forum has been helpful in the past and I guess I've gotten lazy. I'll start looking in the manual again but it was more fun talking about issues here rather than looking through the book but I get your point.
post #4979 of 7730
Has anyone here spent time using the following modes with an 11.1 ( or 11.2 ) speaker setup, that would care to summarize the differences between them??

DOLBY PRO LOGIC IIx A-DSX
DTS NEO:X
Audyssey DSX®


( if this info is already posted - go ahead and slap me - I haven't read every post, and perhaps there are new observations at this point from additional users ). Thanks!
post #4980 of 7730
Thread Starter 
I haven't heard NEO:X in action but I can tell you that there really is no practical difference between these two:

DOLBY PRO LOGIC IIx A-DSX
Audyssey DSX®

The only distinction is that, because Audyssey DSX can't create surr.back channels (it only generates height+wide channels), you need to "layer" it on top of PLIIx if you want to matrix surr. back channels. So they should be effectively the same -- sometimes you'll get a 7.1 track that already has surr. back content, other times you'll get a 5.1 and let PLIIx expand to 7.1 -- and not really a situation where you contrast one with the other. In both cases it's DSX layering H+W content on a standard 5.1/7.1 track.

So, long story short, it's really DSX vs. NEO:X.
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