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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 18

post #511 of 7867
Hi,

One quick question:

Is it possible with the 4520 to assign the FL/FR channels via the Pre-outs and leave the rest ( C/SR/SL) to the build in amps of the unit?

Greetings from Germany
post #512 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

The levels seem perfectly balanced, even though I cranked up the rears a little (rear surround always seems low to me).
Id say that is because your ears naturally block some of that sound while the mic doesn't. I remember early on someone suggesting pointing the mic towards the front (though maybe they actually said towards each speaker) but angled towards the front 3 might help compensate for this.
post #513 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

you could hook it up analog as well (to a different input), and ship that input to zone 2 (although there may be sone timing issues there)...
beat me to it. seems like a really easy solution for a big party. Easier than keeping the food at the right temp anyway.
post #514 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by IwantmyTHX View Post

Id say that is because your ears naturally block some of that sound while the mic doesn't. I remember early on someone suggesting pointing the mic towards the front (though maybe they actually said towards each speaker) but angled towards the front 3 might help compensate for this.

Hmm I'll give it a try this weekend. I kept them level pointing towards the ceiling, and did all 8 locations per the Audyssey 101 FAQ. I made sure to re-measure and level everything in between rounds.

When I have the Denon play the "white noise" test track through the built in the manual speaker adjustment and close my eyes, it sounds like each "volume" and "tone" is exact as I cascade through each speaker, which is much better than the calibrated 4311ci. I can now tell with the 4520 the direction of each speaker, but per the Audyssey XT32 adjustment everything seems level.

The problem arises during movie time, in which the front sound stage is STUNNING, with the wides and heights, but the rears just didn't seem to stand out and just get lost in the mix. (maybe they are really encoded like that????? )

I've always had that problem with the subwoofers also, in which I like a little more bass in my movies.

Playing "The Dark Knight" Tunnel scene, or "Pearl Harbor" attack scene, just doesn't seem to have substance in regards to the surrounds, I can hear it, but am not "shocked" by bullets swinging around, or planes coming from the rear.

Having demo'd both of these scenes before in a friends higher end theater room, in which I took cliff notes of the surround sound cues, helped me manually adjust the rear levels. It ended being a +3db adjustment trim for each surround, and +4db adjustment for each sub, everything in the front sound stage remained AS-IS.
In post-adjustment "white noise" track, the rears, and subs seem too loud and not balanced, but during movies sound perfect.

Is it right or wrong? No idea, but I feel much happier.

I'm just worried this drastic change in overall level, will cause a scaling issue with the previously calibrated EQ.
post #515 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by seneca View Post

Hi,
One quick question:
Is it possible with the 4520 to assign the FL/FR channels via the Pre-outs and leave the rest ( C/SR/SL) to the build in amps of the unit?
Greetings from Germany

Yes, you can mix the pre-outs with the speaker post connections.
post #516 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

The Audyssey setup results were way different. In regards with the levels. . before with the 4311, nothing was allowed to go +db, everything was -db.
With the 4520, the results were allowed to go +db finally.

Not sure what you are implying here as a "-db" speaker setting means the speaker is reacting more efficiently.
post #517 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Is it right or wrong? No idea, but I feel much happier.
I'm just worried this drastic change in overall level, will cause a scaling issue with the previously calibrated EQ.

It's right if that's what you prefer. smile.gif

Note that although the changes will not impact the EQ filters, if you have Dyn EQ enabled, the surrounds and sub will be boosted even more at volume levels lower than 0db.
post #518 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Yes, you can mix the pre-outs with the speaker post connections.


Brilliant!

Thank you so much for your prompt answer!
post #519 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post


Hmm I'll give it a try this weekend. I kept them level pointing towards the ceiling, and did all 8 locations per the Audyssey 101 FAQ. I made sure to re-measure and level everything in between rounds.
When I have the Denon play the "white noise" test track through the built in the manual speaker adjustment and close my eyes, it sounds like each "volume" and "tone" is exact as I cascade through each speaker, which is much better than the calibrated 4311ci. I can now tell with the 4520 the direction of each speaker, but per the Audyssey XT32 adjustment everything seems level.
The problem arises during movie time, in which the front sound stage is STUNNING, with the wides and heights, but the rears just didn't seem to stand out and just get lost in the mix. (maybe they are really encoded like that????? )
I've always had that problem with the subwoofers also, in which I like a little more bass in my movies.
Playing "The Dark Knight" Tunnel scene, or "Pearl Harbor" attack scene, just doesn't seem to have substance in regards to the surrounds, I can hear it, but am not "shocked" by bullets swinging around, or planes coming from the rear.
Having demo'd both of these scenes before in a friends higher end theater room, in which I took cliff notes of the surround sound cues, helped me manually adjust the rear levels. It ended being a +3db adjustment trim for each surround, and +4db adjustment for each sub, everything in the front sound stage remained AS-IS.
In post-adjustment "white noise" track, the rears, and subs seem too loud and not balanced, but during movies sound perfect.
Is it right or wrong? No idea, but I feel much happier.
I'm just worried this drastic change in overall level, will cause a scaling issue with the previously calibrated EQ.

I've done the exact same with my Onkyo 805 after running the Audyssey a few times and finding that my tastes for action/scifi/horror prefer a slightly greater presence of the side surrounds and more so of the back surrounds.  I'm expecting the same when I get the 4520 shortly.  I suspect that since the heights have been commented on by others that they are not that present in many soundtracks that I may experiment with boosting the speaker levels after calibration also. I am also looking forward to hearing the wides as a way to fill in sound passing from front to side surrounds.

post #520 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by IwantmyTHX View Post

Id say that is because your ears naturally block some of that sound while the mic doesn't. I remember early on someone suggesting pointing the mic towards the front (though maybe they actually said towards each speaker) but angled towards the front 3 might help compensate for this.

The Audyssey mic should be pointed at the ceiling. Angling the mic towards the front speakers goes against Audyssey's recommendation, and the collective wisdom of many knowledgeable users over on the Audyssey thread.
post #521 of 7867
^^^

+1... ime, the issue here is that many "prefer" overboosted surrounds...

i'm a bit confused here on the "it set the speakers to +db rather than -db"... that implies that the 4520 amplification section is either weaker than the 4311 or the gain structure is different (and significantly so, given that 3db difference is double the "power")... which i would find unlikely... not impossible, but unlikely...
post #522 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Denon AVR-4520 in and installed, upgraded from a Denon AVR-4311ci.
First off, looks, feels great! I miss the Audyssey DSX blue LED though.
The Audyssey setup results were way different. In regards with the levels. . before with the 4311, nothing was allowed to go +db, everything was -db.
With the 4520, the results were allowed to go +db finally.
Let me say that I've run Audyssey on my 4311 previously over 10 times, adjusting the setup, trying new speakers, but never positioning. The results were always "in family" very similar with the levels and distances.
I used a protractor, math, laser, and string to figure out the speaker locations exactly to the Audyssey recommendations (except for rear). The calculated distance always showed differences in the Left side of the room versus Right.
Now the distances are almost perfectly mirrored, the levels are obviously slightly different.
Closing my eyes, and sweeping through the room with the test tones, listening for apparent differences is pretty impressive. The levels seem perfectly balanced, even though I cranked up the rears a little (rear surround always seems low to me).
The menus are much better (much like my AVR-3313ci downstairs).
So far, very happy with the build quality, and the Audyssey upgrades (whatever they did).

Welcome to a new 4520 owne!. Very nice room.

Regarding your observation of different calibration results with the 4520 vs. the 4311, I find this interesting. I too upgraded from a 4311. Using a Pro kit, I am getting similar results with regards to speaker distances and trims for calibrations on either AVR. Assuming nothing else has changed, your results should be similar as well, since both AVR's use the same MultEQ XT32 technology. Can you post some examples showing the differences between the two calibrations? Note: I did experience a significant difference in how the 4520 handles sub distances for multiple subs, which I documented in the Audyssey Pro thread (the 4520 calculates sub distances more accurately).

I miss the blue DSX light as well. For example, on the 4311, the front display would show "DTS HD MSTR" and the blue light would be on, which visually allowed me to see that a Blu-ray audio was configured properly. Now, on the 4520, the display shows "Audyssey DSX". To check the audio status, I need to press the "Info" button on the remote. Not a big deal.

I'm glad you like the sound!
post #523 of 7867
I have a couple of questions and wanted to see if I'm correct in my thought process. I currently own a Denon 4810. Does the 4520 have a preamp mode like the 4311? I currently have a set of speakers that I use for home theater but I'm in the process of ordering a set of Magnepan MG12's for two channel. I would like to use my current speakers for home theater, TV watching, etc. and use the Magnepans for strictly two channel in the same room utilizing my CD player and computer set up for sources. Will the Denon allow me to utilize the Maggies in this way say through Zone 2 or in another way. If so how is the two channel sound in Zone 2 for critical listening?

I have thought about purchasing a separate preamp for just two channel but wanted to see if the Denon somehow can accomplish what I'm looking for.

Thanks for the help.
post #524 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
+1... ime, the issue here is that many "prefer" overboosted surrounds...
i'm a bit confused here on the "it set the speakers to +db rather than -db"... that implies that the 4520 amplification section is either weaker than the 4311 or the gain structure is different (and significantly so, given that 3db difference is double the "power")... which i would find unlikely... not impossible, but unlikely...

 

Chris,

 

Here are the results of the calibrations for the 4311 and the 4520.  Same room, same speakers.  I am in the process of adding additional room treatments since the installation of the 4520, which might account for the slightly higher trim levels with the new AVR.  HST, the reults are not what I would call significantly different, with the exception of the subwoofer.  With the 4311, the sub channel required the so-called "distance tweak" to achieve flattest bass response, while with the 4520, flattest response was with the Audyssey default distances.  And, subjectively, the bass sounds better with the 4520, although it could be expectation bias.

 

 

Edit:  Subliminal message, you know you want to upgrade........

post #525 of 7867
^^^

jerry, i knew you'd have it all charted out... wink.gif i wish i was as good as you at keeping track of this stuff... redface.gif

those numbers are about what i would expect, given you are removing some reflected "energy" by adding the treatments... that's a "logical" result...

yes... i do want to upgrade, and resistance is futile.... methinks there will be an a100 with audyssey pro license for sale very shortly... smile.gif
post #526 of 7867
For the converts from 4311 to 4520, can I ask if you find the sonic signature similar or changed?
(for those who do not believe that amps make a difference or have a sonic signature- your point is already noted, and let's leave it to those who have the amp and can help me - cheers).
post #527 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

For the converts from 4311 to 4520, can I ask if you find the sonic signature similar or changed?
(for those who do not believe that amps make a difference or have a sonic signature- your point is already noted, and let's leave it to those who have the amp and can help me - cheers).

 

IMHO, 99% of the sonic signature of a system is attributable to the speakers and the room.  HST, I hear no sonic difference between the 4311 and the 4520.  Except, of course, the previously-mentioned anomaly with Audyssey-calculated sub distance differences.  This, of course, has nothing to do with the quality of the amps. 

post #528 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

@ Jerry -- awesome, thank you smile.gif Interesting to see that the "hump" is centered between 1kHz-2kHz, which seems rather high for dialogue.
EDIT - just had a thought... Jerry, when you measured LFC did you measure the sub pre-out or the in-room response? If it was in-room, it seems like you should repeat the measurement at the pre-out with Audyssey disabled to isolate the effect of LFC....

 

OK, BP, here it is.  Measurement is taken from the Sub1 pre-out.  LFC requires Audyssey to be engaged.  DEQ and DVol are off, of course.  At 20Hz, toggling through LFC values of 1,2,3, and 4 results in a decrease of -15dB, -20dB, -24dB, and -27dB, respectively.  Pretty kind to the neighbors, I suspect.  :)

 

 

post #529 of 7867
Thanks for the reply, I hope it won't cost the earth down under... I am still enjoying my 4311, but there are a few features I like in the new amp so if I find a buyer for my amp, then I'm in too.
post #530 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Edit:  Subliminal message, you know you want to upgrade........

i could wait no longer, and mike has my order... smile.gif hopefully should be here in a couple weeks...
post #531 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


i could wait no longer, and mike has my order... smile.gif hopefully should be here in a couple weeks...

 

 

The Devil won!  Someone is going to get a very nice A100, Chris.

post #532 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Not sure what you are implying here as a "-db" speaker setting means the speaker is reacting more efficiently.

Disclaimer, I could be way off on what I'm about to say, and can only try to equate what is happening to what I do on other designs. I have no insight now the Audyssey program actually does it's scaling. With that being said so people don't get mad at me for being off:


In signal processing you can handle the equation two different ways, for each speaker, and frequency response curve:

you can figure out the peak, and adjust everything up to it
you can figure out the valley, and adjust everything down to it.

Then when you merge the channels, you implement an overall scale of the channel to match everything.

I've never designed this for speakers, but I have for input / output filters and inrush current analysis as a senior EE.

If the new implementation is now allowing a + scaling overall, it means a complete redesign of how Audyssey is handling the system. From my background it means they found a better way to smooth the curve on the lower 32band, to match better when it gets integrated into the entire system.
Edited by kamiraa - 10/25/12 at 9:30am
post #533 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i could wait no longer, and mike has my order... smile.gif hopefully should be here in a couple weeks...

I can't say I'm surprised---although to your credit you lasted longer than I thought. By my count you're the second 4311/Pro guy to flip. Enjoy the matrix switch and other bells and whistles, but the real test is confirming Jerry's results with multiple subs. If AJ's throughput issue gets resolved, and your old Pied Piper act starts up again, Denon really _should_ pay you.
post #534 of 7867
@kamiraa...

nah, you are misinterpreting/misusing the results... it's merely a channel trim... it doesn't have anything to do with the "eq" portion of audyssey (although it will have an effect on dynamic eq if you change it)...

it ALWAYS could go to the "+" region (up to +12, iirc)...
Edited by ccotenj - 10/25/12 at 9:31am
post #535 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Welcome to a new 4520 owne!. Very nice room.
Regarding your observation of different calibration results with the 4520 vs. the 4311, I find this interesting. I too upgraded from a 4311. Using a Pro kit, I am getting similar results with regards to speaker distances and trims for calibrations on either AVR. Assuming nothing else has changed, your results should be similar as well, since both AVR's use the same MultEQ XT32 technology. Can you post some examples showing the differences between the two calibrations? Note: I did experience a significant difference in how the 4520 handles sub distances for multiple subs, which I documented in the Audyssey Pro thread (the 4520 calculates sub distances more accurately).
I miss the blue DSX light as well. For example, on the 4311, the front display would show "DTS HD MSTR" and the blue light would be on, which visually allowed me to see that a Blu-ray audio was configured properly. Now, on the 4520, the display shows "Audyssey DSX". To check the audio status, I need to press the "Info" button on the remote. Not a big deal.
I'm glad you like the sound!

Thanks Jerry! iIve been following your info for a while and look forward to going to the Pro Kit (your lucky you don't live closer or I'd be asking to borrow yours haha, I'm over in Houston) AFTER they fix your submitted requests!
I knew this would bite me in the butt, but I wiped the cal folder after I ordered the AVR-4520CI (the AVR-4311ci broke and was sent into them). I checked and the only cal I had on another machine was one with previous speakers.

I just had run the Audyssey on the 4311ci before sending in, and I remember surrounds specifically had come back to around -5 and -5.5 db, this new one comes back to 0db and +0.5db if my memory holds up.
I can't compare subwoofers since I did change those out, but the distances did come back near exact. Maybe it's only a pro thing??

The center was another one that was previously a few db down, and is now a + value (I think 0.5)

I can send over my current saved calibration if you like (not sure if it helps without a comparison). I guess we are making good notes for the future 4520 owners, SAVE YOUR CALS.
Edited by kamiraa - 10/25/12 at 9:31am
post #536 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

i could wait no longer, and mike has my order... smile.gif hopefully should be here in a couple weeks...


The Devil won!  Someone is going to get a very nice A100, Chris.

yea jerry, as usual, the devil wins... redface.gif hopefully someone will get that a100 soon... oh well... it was either this or the new oppo...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

I can't say I'm surprised---although to your credit you lasted longer than I thought. By my count you're the second 4311/Pro guy to flip. Enjoy the matrix switch and other bells and whistles, but the real test is SQ. If AJ's throughput issue gets resolved, and your old Pied Piper act starts up again, Denon really _should_ pay you.

stuart, it's really jerry's fault (and flint for convincing me that i wanted instapreview)... i wasn't gonna do this, but i couldn't let jerry have all the fun.... tongue.gif

the "upgrade" really is for the bells & whistles... i expect (and would be shocked if it's otherwise) that "sq" will be unchanged... of course, since i will not be doing any type of valid testing, i won't really be able to have an opinion on that...

i wish they'd pay me, but i'd have to stand in line behind jd and batpig... although i wouldn't complain if they sent me a small token of appreciation... smile.gif
post #537 of 7867
My only complaints so far:

1. THIS THING IS BIG, holy cow big, that extra inch doesn't seem like much on paper, but once it was in it's location (a very open shelf) it def eats up the room.

2. The hub is a great idea, but 10/100? Really Denon, couldn't spring the extra few bucks for the gigabit?

3. I miss my blue DSX light wink.gif
post #538 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

...of course, since i will not be doing any type of valid testing, i won't really be able to have an opinion on that...
i wish they'd pay me, but i'd have to stand in line behind jd and batpig... although i wouldn't complain if they sent me a small token of appreciation... smile.gif

Why can't you do a A100 vs. 4520 comparison of bass response, with the same configuration? You've got the OmniMic:D

The question, for those of us with multiple subs, is whether the more accurate - as per AustinJerry - measure of sub distance in the Pro cal, which at least in his case eliminated the need for the distance tweak to flatten the crossover region for mains, can be sustained. If so, Audyssey has 'fixed' something that they haven't acknowledged is 'broken' WRT overall listening experience, in implementations of Audyssey Pro with other AVRs. That's a huge deal moving forward, because it gives Denon a comparative advantage among audiophiles, if MLP post-calibration assessment can show a flatter bass response with the 4520 than older generation, Pro-capable AVRs after unmodified Pro runs. I hope I[m characterizing what you found correctly, Jerry:).

Of course, I'm not quite as subject to 'upgradeitis' as you, Chris, so I'll hang onto my 'archaic' 4311 for a while longer because the matrix switch, enhanced HDMI multi-zone, InstaPreview and the like aren't more than curiousities for me. Pity you can't develop upgradeitis for your Lumagen:).

In the meantime, I'm trying to futilely resist the call of the new Oppo, in an area that _I_ don't really 'need' to upgrade--especially if you regard comparative VP of external sources as mainly a placebo effect for all but the highest resolution displays and closest distance to screen. Of course, the HDMI input to upscale external sources is the only real reason I'd buy the new Oppo for our needs.
Edited by sdrucker - 10/25/12 at 10:35am
post #539 of 7867
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Edit:  Subliminal message, you know you want to upgrade........

i could wait no longer, and mike has my order... smile.gif hopefully should be here in a couple weeks...

LMAO!!!! That didn't take long!! tongue.gifbiggrin.gif

Now I'm tempted to go pull up old quotes about you not feeling the need to upgrade any time soon....
post #540 of 7867
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

Disclaimer, I could be way off on what I'm about to say, and can only try to equate what is happening to what I do on other designs. I have no insight now the Audyssey program actually does it's scaling. With that being said so people don't get mad at me for being off:
In signal processing you can handle the equation two different ways, for each speaker, and frequency response curve:
you can figure out the peak, and adjust everything up to it
you can figure out the valley, and adjust everything down to it.
Then when you merge the channels, you implement an overall scale of the channel to match everything.
I've never designed this for speakers, but I have for input / output filters and inrush current analysis as a senior EE.
If the new implementation is now allowing a + scaling overall, it means a complete redesign of how Audyssey is handling the system. From my background it means they found a better way to smooth the curve on the lower 32band, to match better when it gets integrated into the entire system.

I agree with Chris, you are misinterpreting the results. Remember, both AVR's have MultEQ XT32, which is an Audyssey technology, not a Denon technology. There has been no technology change to MultEQ XT32, or we would have heard about it from Audyssey.
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