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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 184

post #5491 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FWIW I didn’t understand it either. If correction ceases at -3dB, the number of filters available below that point isn’t relevant. AFAIK all versions of Audyssey cease correction at -3dB.


Yes, exactly. Chris K caused some confusion with those remarks. He was just referring to the ability of XT32 to do as you say but he was ignoring the many other good reasons to set speakers to small when using a subwoofer.

thing is, AFAIK, no version of Audyssey changes the applied filters based on the crossover setting. So if there are filters for full range, the filters will be present down to a lowered crossover, won't they? Or did I misunderstand the whole thing. (too lazy to look up Chris's comments)
post #5492 of 7730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You have three options to make the Height speakers sing:
  1. Audyssey DSX
  2. Dolby PLIIz Height
  3. DTS Neo:X

Assuming your AVR has all these DSPs, then selecting any one of them will send sound through the Height channels. All three work in different ways to derive the height information, so it's a good idea to experiment with all three and then settle on the one you prefer the most. For me, this is Dolby PLIIz, but YMMV of course.

Thanks for the clarification and you may have mentioned this earlier in the thread, by using any of the above, if source material is Dolby Digital 5.1, I still get that distribution of sound along with the added channels, correct?

Cheers,
Paul

The thing to understand is that it's not about the INPUT signal -- height information is always going to be generated AFTER the signal is inputted and decoded, it's all post-processing. So the height (and wide) channels are "extracted" from whatever soundtrack you input, whether it's a 5.1 Dolby Digital signal or a 7.1 DTS-MASTER signal or whatever.
post #5493 of 7730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FWIW I didn’t understand it either. If correction ceases at -3dB, the number of filters available below that point isn’t relevant. AFAIK all versions of Audyssey cease correction at -3dB.


Yes, exactly. Chris K caused some confusion with those remarks. He was just referring to the ability of XT32 to do as you say but he was ignoring the many other good reasons to set speakers to small when using a subwoofer.

thing is, AFAIK, no version of Audyssey changes the applied filters based on the crossover setting. So if there are filters for full range, the filters will be present down to a lowered crossover, won't they? Or did I misunderstand the whole thing. (too lazy to look up Chris's comments)

I do think you are misunderstanding. I don't think anything changed about XT32 in this respect -- regardless of what version of MultEQ you have, the filters taper off below the -3dB point.
post #5494 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbaucom View Post

Given the speakers internal crossover to the woofer, I suspected you would have issues trying to use the 65 or 70 hz crossover NHT suggested. As has already been stated, you should not lower the crossover set by audyssey.

There are a couple of reasons for this. Audyssey sets the crossover at the measured -3db point of the speakers in your room. This means your speakers are already rolling off at his point and they will not have very strong performance below this frequency. Also, audyssey does not apply any room correction below this measured crossover point.

Personally, I would just run the speakers using the bryston amp off the left and right pre outs and forget trying to bi amp them. Unless you are going to remove the internal crossovers from your speakers there is very little benefit in bi amping. However, this is your setup. You should do what sounds best to you.

So just trying to understand this: If you use the Subwoofer outs to the external amp, which powers the built-in subs of the VT-2's and use the 4520 to power the mid/tweeter section with all speakers set to small, isn't it the same as using small speakers and a powered sub( or two)? When removing the jumper on the speakers and powering each section separately, using the crossover point in the 4520, what happens to the speakers internal crossover?
post #5495 of 7730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
If you use the Subwoofer outs to the external amp, which powers the built-in subs of the VT-2's and use the 4520 to power the mid/tweeter section with all speakers set to small, isn't it the same as using small speakers and a powered sub( or two)?

In principle, yes. You have effectively turned the woofers in the NHT's into "separate" powered subwoofers.
Quote:
When removing the jumper on the speakers and powering each section separately, using the crossover point in the 4520, what happens to the speakers internal crossover?

You are effectively bypassing it. So the interaction between the woofer and the rest of the speaker is going to be dictated by the digital crossover set in the receiver.
post #5496 of 7730
OK, thanks! A question about XT32: does it EQ the same for small speakers+sub and for a setup using full range mains w/o a sub?
post #5497 of 7730
Thread Starter 
MultEQ doesn't care about small vs large. For each speaker it detects, it will create an EQ filter for its entire detected operating range (down to the -3db point). So for example regardless of whether a sub is detected or not, the front right speaker will get the exact same EQ filter. The presence or absence of a sub doesn't change anything with respect what happens to the other speakers. Each speaker's EQ filter is calculated independently.

The problem with previous versions of MultEQ is that the sub channel has much higher resolution filters than those for the other speakers, so by not having a separate powered sub you were essentially wasting the resolution available on the sub channel. With XT32 all channels have identical 512x resolution, so that is no longer an issue.
post #5498 of 7730
It is called Low Frequency Containment. Sounds like your low frequencies were effectively contained. We're you expecting something different?

Yes... I had got it into my fool head that I could play louder than usual and the low bass would somehow be prevented from leaving the apartment
Guess not
You don't need Audessey LFC: Just don't turn the subwoofer on confused.gif
Edited by jake51 - 8/23/13 at 1:06am
post #5499 of 7730
I have another question wink.gif
The volume indicator is only shown onscreen if Video Conversion is turned on
Can I get around this, that is turn conversion off and still see the volume onscreen?
post #5500 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You have three options to make the Height speakers sing:
  1. Audyssey DSX
  2. Dolby PLIIz Height
  3. DTS Neo:X

Assuming your AVR has all these DSPs, then selecting any one of them will send sound through the Height channels. All three work in different ways to derive the height information, so it's a good idea to experiment with all three and then settle on the one you prefer the most. For me, this is Dolby PLIIz, but YMMV of course.

Thanks for the clarification and you may have mentioned this earlier in the thread, by using any of the above, if source material is Dolby Digital 5.1, I still get that distribution of sound along with the added channels, correct?

Cheers,
Paul

 

Oh yes. The 'core' codec (DTS-HD MA, Dolby True-HD etc) isn't affected. The DSP (PLIIz etc) 'overlays' the core codec.

post #5501 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FWIW I didn’t understand it either. If correction ceases at -3dB, the number of filters available below that point isn’t relevant. AFAIK all versions of Audyssey cease correction at -3dB.


Yes, exactly. Chris K caused some confusion with those remarks. He was just referring to the ability of XT32 to do as you say but he was ignoring the many other good reasons to set speakers to small when using a subwoofer.

thing is, AFAIK, no version of Audyssey changes the applied filters based on the crossover setting. So if there are filters for full range, the filters will be present down to a lowered crossover, won't they? Or did I misunderstand the whole thing. (too lazy to look up Chris's comments)

 

Pro (allegedly) changes the filters based on the XO selected, but no 'consumer' version does. My understanding is that Audyssey only creates correction filters down to the F3 it detects. When it 'gets to' the F3 it stops making filters because it doesn’t need them as it is not going to apply correction below the F3 for the reasons we know (speaker safety etc). This is why the advice is to never lower the XO from Audyssey's suggestion because you will then have an uncorrected 'hole' in the response.

 

What I think you are suggesting is that Audyssey XT32 creates filters for the full range but AIUI this is not so. I have certainly never seen any comment from Chris K that would support that.

post #5502 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake51 View Post

I have another question wink.gif
The volume indicator is only shown onscreen if Video Conversion is turned on
Can I get around this, that is turn conversion off and still see the volume onscreen?

It must be ON for the AVR to project the volume on screen, however, in some cases the TV itself will project the volume when HDMI Control is enabled (which is why in some cases owners may see two volume levels).
post #5503 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post
When removing the jumper on the speakers and powering each section separately, using the crossover point in the 4520, what happens to the speakers internal crossover?

Good question.  The OP's particular style of hybrid biamping may well be leaving the low pass filter portion of the internal crossover (connected to the lower binding posts) intact.  It's unclear to me if simply removing the jumper bypasses it in a way that eliminates potential interaction with the active low pass filter in the AVR. 

 

If I was experimenting with this, make some further inquiries from OEM CS as to why they recommended 70 Hz in the AVR and the circuit design. 

 

And I'd want to do the acoustic measurements I suggested in a post above on this topic to confirm I'm getting smooth FR at the splice.  After all, that's an important part of designing good passive crossover-to ensure a smooth transition at the freqs that overlap from one driver to the other. 

 

And that is why in more typical setups using powered subs we do what we can to bypass or raise to maximum freq the LPF in the sub before running Audyssey.

 

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

"The Most Common Question About Biamping

The most common question I get is ...

"Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
The answer is ...

Yes, otherwise you are not really biamping at all.

Generally speaking, the mid to high section needs to be retained since a typical biamp setup will only eliminate the bass to mid+high network. These sections are nearly always completely separate networks, although it may not seem like it when you first have a look at the board.

Equally important is the selection of the electronic crossover frequency. It must be the same as the original, within a few 10s of hertz. The only exception is where you might obtain information from the manufacturer of the speaker that allows the frequency to be modified. In general, I strongly suggest that you determine the original crossover frequency, and stay with it.


Edited by SoundofMind - 8/23/13 at 5:02am
post #5504 of 7730
All the speakers I have seen with hi/low posts and jumpers retain the internal crossover when bi-amping. How would they not? You are just removing a jumper and applying power at the same terminals as before. My old Maggies use an external box so I can drive more directly, but part of the crossover is still "inside". To drive the drivers directly you'd have to open open the speakers and re-wire.

Does not mean you are not bi-amping, however, just that you are limiting the benefits by retaining the speaker's passive crossovers. A line-level crossover still benefits the amplifiers.
post #5505 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

All the speakers I have seen with hi/low posts and jumpers retain the internal crossover when bi-amping. How would they not? You are just removing a jumper and applying power at the same terminals as before. My old Maggies use an external box so I can drive more directly, but part of the crossover is still "inside". To drive the drivers directly you'd have to open open the speakers and re-wire.

Does not mean you are not bi-amping, however, just that you are limiting the benefits by retaining the speaker's passive crossovers. A line-level crossover still benefits the amplifiers.

 

Don - would you mind elaborating on that for me?  Are you suggesting that 'passive biamping' actually has some merit?

post #5506 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

Pro (allegedly) changes the filters based on the XO selected, but no 'consumer' version does. My understanding is that Audyssey only creates correction filters down to the F3 it detects. When it 'gets to' the F3 it stops making filters because it doesn’t need them as it is not going to apply correction below the F3 for the reasons we know (speaker safety etc). This is why the advice is to never lower the XO from Audyssey's suggestion because you will then have an uncorrected 'hole' in the response.

 

What I think you are suggesting is that Audyssey XT32 creates filters for the full range but AIUI this is not so. I have certainly never seen any comment from Chris K that would support that.

Right, Keith.

From the horse's mouth:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20648032

"The filter is always calculated down to the roll off frequency of the speaker that was found in the room measurement."

 

As to what Pro is doing that's different from consumer versions irt ranking crossovers, for those interested in some of the more esoteric details, exerpted from the same link:

 

" With MultEQ Pro, the software tries several frequencies to find the best crossover frequency that minimizes summation problems that can occur due to slope mismatch.  This is done for each speaker individually....only in MultEQ Pro.  The memory requirements to store and search over multiple frequencies and slopes are too high for the DSP chips in AVRs.  They can only be done on the PC at this time...the proper highpass filter is being applied to the filter (at the frequency you selected) so that it matches the slope that will be applied by the bass management filters in the AVR....Pro applies the HP filter before loading on the AVR.  That's why you need to go back to that page and make the change if you decide to use a different frequency for the crossover." 

(excuse my combining responses to very sophisticated questions posed to Chris  by AustinJerry and Markus for brevity)

 

Here's another one from Chris

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/20340#post_17490386

"...in the MultEQ Pro software the algorithm in recommending the crossover frequency is much more advanced than in the built-in version. It first finds the -3 dB roll off point, but then performs a search of other higher frequencies and internally combines them with the measured response of each speaker to see what combination gives the flattest (amplitude and phase) at the crossover. So, the numbers you see listed are in decreasing order of recommendations. The ones at the top of the list produced the best amplitude and phase blend at the crossover."


Edited by SoundofMind - 8/23/13 at 8:11am
post #5507 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

Pro (allegedly) changes the filters based on the XO selected, but no 'consumer' version does. My understanding is that Audyssey only creates correction filters down to the F3 it detects. When it 'gets to' the F3 it stops making filters because it doesn’t need them as it is not going to apply correction below the F3 for the reasons we know (speaker safety etc). This is why the advice is to never lower the XO from Audyssey's suggestion because you will then have an uncorrected 'hole' in the response.

 

What I think you are suggesting is that Audyssey XT32 creates filters for the full range but AIUI this is not so. I have certainly never seen any comment from Chris K that would support that.

Right, Keith.

From the horse's mouth:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/20648032

"The filter is always calculated down to the roll off frequency of the speaker that was found in the room measurement."

 

As to what Pro is doing that's different from consumer versions irt ranking crossovers, for those interested in some of the more esoteric details, exerpted from the same link:

 

" With MultEQ Pro, the software tries several frequencies to find the best crossover frequency that minimizes summation problems that can occur due to slope mismatch.  This is done for each speaker individually....only in MultEQ Pro.  The memory requirements to store and search over multiple frequencies and slopes are too high for the DSP chips in AVRs.  They can only be done on the PC at this time...the proper highpass filter is being applied to the filter (at the frequency you selected) so that it matches the slope that will be applied by the bass management filters in the AVR....Pro applies the HP filter before loading on the AVR.  That's why you need to go back to that page and make the change if you decide to use a different frequency for the crossover." 

(excuse my combining responses to very sophisticated questions posed to Chris  by AustinJerry and Markus for brevity)

 

Here's another one from Chris

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/20340#post_17490386

"...in the MultEQ Pro software the algorithm in recommending the crossover frequency is much more advanced than in the built-in version. It first finds the -3 dB roll off point, but then performs a search of other higher frequencies and internally combines them with the measured response of each speaker to see what combination gives the flattest (amplitude and phase) at the crossover. So, the numbers you see listed are in decreasing order of recommendations. The ones at the top of the list produced the best amplitude and phase blend at the crossover."

 

Good stuff, SoM. Thanks for posting that.

post #5508 of 7730
I have an interesting situation but not sure if I should be concerned yet or not.

Got me 4520 from AVS and have been using it randomly to power a zone2 and have had some random issues but this one is new:


I am new to the AVR world but right now while building my theater out I have the 4520 hooked up to a single triad 4ohm speaker for some music while I work. I have a basic config setup and have things set to 4ohm. Today I noticed that if I put the volumn up to 68+ the system shuts off and the red light flashes. Now I am not sure if I have a hardware issue or the problem is related to just one speaker attached.

I think the problem may have been related to a set of speaker wires plugged into the right output but no speaker - i have removed that and things seem okay now. Didn't realize I still had those in there

Any thoughts?
Edited by jjslegacy - 8/23/13 at 12:11pm
post #5509 of 7730

^Was Z2 on today at the time of the shutdown?  What is the load on Z2 (effective resistance/ohms)?

 

What was the freq of the flashes-every 2 sec indicates thermal, 0.5 is indicative of a short or problem impedence mismatch.

post #5510 of 7730
Z2 was not on - just running from main.

I would say it was .5 flashing - I am guessing the extra speaker wire plugged into the avr but not plugged into a speaker was a potential short maybe?
post #5511 of 7730

^good hypothesis

and easy to test  smile.gif

post #5512 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You are effectively bypassing it. So the interaction between the woofer and the rest of the speaker is going to be dictated by the digital crossover set in the receiver.

Unless I misunderstood the question or the speaker has some sort of special feature designed for active biamping, removing the jumper should simply separate the crossover into two parts, one for the woofer the other for the mid/high but will still be in effect.
post #5513 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

All the speakers I have seen with hi/low posts and jumpers retain the internal crossover when bi-amping. How would they not? You are just removing a jumper and applying power at the same terminals as before. My old Maggies use an external box so I can drive more directly, but part of the crossover is still "inside". To drive the drivers directly you'd have to open open the speakers and re-wire.

Does not mean you are not bi-amping, however, just that you are limiting the benefits by retaining the speaker's passive crossovers. A line-level crossover still benefits the amplifiers.

+1

Correct
post #5514 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Don - would you mind elaborating on that for me?  Are you suggesting that 'passive biamping' actually has some merit?

Passive bi-amping allows a person to apply more power to the speakers through added amplification, and if a person wants to, they can also experiment with different speaker cables for either the high end or bass.
post #5515 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

So the interaction between the woofer and the rest of the speaker is going to be dictated by the digital crossover set in the receiver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

Unless I misunderstood the question or the speaker has some sort of special feature designed for active biamping, removing the jumper should simply separate the crossover into two parts, one for the woofer the other for the mid/high but will still be in effect.

I agree with avman09 on this.

Unless the existing crossover is physically detached from the speakers, the passive crossover will still effect the speakers regardless of any external connection.

You cannot override the internal crossover with an external digital crossover. A digital crossover cannot tell a speaker to extend down to 1,000Hz if the internal crossover is telling it to stop at 2,000Hz.

The digital crossover can work when a separate sub speaker is added; and then the digital crossover will not pass signal to the main speaker below a certain frequency, and in turn allows the sub to extend up to that same frequency.
post #5516 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by classicrecording View Post

Passive bi-amping allows a person to apply more power to the speakers through added amplification, and if a person wants to, they can also experiment with different speaker cables for either the high end or bass.

Actually, with bi-amping with two separate amps of the same amount of power, the total power to the speaker is not really increased at all.
If you are bi-amping and have 100w from one amp going to the woofer/mid section, and 100w from another amp going to the tweeter/high section, they do NOT get added together to make it 200w total going to the speaker. The only thing you get is two separate amps of 100w going to each section of the bi-amped speaker for total of 100w.
post #5517 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Actually, with bi-amping with two separate amps of the same amount of power, the total power to the speaker is not really increased at all.
If you are bi-amping and have 100w from one amp going to the woofer/mid section, and 100w from another amp going to the tweeter/high section, they do NOT get added together to make it 200w total going to the speaker. The only thing you get is two separate amps of 100w going to each section of the bi-amped speaker for total of 100w.

Not sure how you did your math. Let's agree to ignore peaks and just talked average power, now a single 100W amp will have 100W average power available for say, a 3 way speaker consisting of one tweeter, one mid range and one bass driver. If you bi-amp the speaker with two (2) 100W amp, and if by removing the jumper the crossover is separated into two filter sections, one for the mid/high and one for the bass, then each section will have 100W average power on hand. Now if we consider an example when the woofer demands all 100W, it would get it in the bi-amp situation without exceeding the amp's rated capacity. In the single amp situation, yes it will still get the power it needs but will then in theory exceed the rated capacity of the 100W amp because obviously the amp would have to provide power to the mid/high drivers at the same time as well. So in this example, either way the power delivered end up greater than 100W, but again in the single amp case the amp will be working being its limit. Of course this is more or less math, in real applications the effect could well be negligible.

If the 3 way speaker used has its crossover separated into one for the bass/mid and the other for the tweeter, then of course the effect describe above is not significant. That being said, if someone just wants more power, it is far better to just get a 200W amp because that will truly and 100% provide twice as much power on hand for the speaker as a whole without having to worry about which section gets what.
post #5518 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post


That being said, if someone just wants more power, it is far better to just get a 200W amp because that will truly and 100% provide twice as much power on hand for the speaker as a whole without having to worry about which section gets what.

+1
post #5519 of 7730

^+2

 

I was interrupted while composing this post so forgive some redundancy, but I will include transient peaks in the discussion as I think they are relevant.

 

Irt the OP, let's look at the circuits involved.  The HP portion of the speaker only uses a small amount of power to drive the tweeter and midrange driver in his room, even at reference level.  As it is likely on the order of only a few watts any amp can easily manage that task.  The LP portion of the speaker demands far more power to drive the woofer.  Think of the mechanics involved moving that big cone and voice coil reproducing freqs into the subsonic range. This is the side that could potentially demand so much power during bass-laden transient peaks at reference levels that it could conceivably drive an amp beyond specs and result in clipping with audible distortion.  But I kinda doubt that was happening at all when the OP originally had his nice Bryston amp hooked up to the speaker with the jumpers connected as I imagine it probably sounded pretty darn good. 

 

Now, the OP removes the jumpers and uses the ext amp to power just the woofer and uses AVR int amp to power the tweeter/mid range driver.  There is more power available to the speaker because two separate amps are connected.  In fact, two separate power transformers are involved, one in the AVR and one in the ext amp. 

 

But despite more power potentially being available, is more power being effectively used by the speaker? Certainly not by the HP portion.  It wasn't using much to begin with and cannot benefit simply from more power being available. 

 

So, how would adding the AVR int amp power to the HF side help?  It doesn't seem to me like it will likely make much audible diff at all.   If the system was formerly being driven beyond specs  the amount of power now being offloaded from the Bryston to the Denon for HP side is unlikely to matter. 

 

Let me say that those many of us who use a powered sub off the AVR's sub ch are getting some significant benefits due to use of true biamping in our systems. We employ an active crossover which creates a distinct line level sub ch signal for the LFs which is sent to the sub amp and a separate signal without low bass for the satellite speaker amp, whether internal to the AVR or external.  Typically that xover is 80 Hz.  One defeats the sub's built-in crossover or sets it to max so it is unlikely to have any problematic interaction with the crossover in the AVR.  As for the speakers, one is not removing jumpers so the passive int xover divides whatever signal is sent to it as it normally would.  That usually produces quite good results for most folks, even without any ext amp power or tweaking.  

 

With Audyssey Pro, additional processing power is available so attention is paid to the effect of the room's acoustics and response of the sub and sat in the area of the "splice".  The available crossovers are ranked irt smoothest predicted splice.  That normally results in even better SQ. 

 

A few dedicated hobbyists take it further, by using sophisticated room measurement systems to aid in sub placement, room treatments, even tweaking speaker/sub distances to further smooth the splice (and other portions of the FR in the room), all of which can result in measurable improvements.

 

I have ignored other debated aspects of passive biamping such as the controversial theory about woofer EMF effect on tweeter.  Biamping is a pretty complex topic and I think detailed discussion would be best taken up on a more appropriate thread. IME it's far too easy for posters to get caught up in generalizations and absolutes when in fact there are many variables involved, and the many permutations of what's loosely referred to as biamping. 


Edited by SoundofMind - 8/25/13 at 8:09am
post #5520 of 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post


That being said, if someone just wants more power, it is far better to just get a 200W amp because that will truly and 100% provide twice as much power on hand for the speaker as a whole without having to worry about which section gets what.

+1

+3

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