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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 195

post #5821 of 7686
Hi all,
I have a question. I got a 4520ci, "B" stock Saturday. I ran through the setup and it worked fine. I listened to a Couple of BD movies in lossless 7.1. Really like what I was hearing.
Yesterday I ran the unit for about 10 hours watching Football and some network shows via my HR24-200.

At some point I lost all output from the front 3 channels. I was getting surround info to the surrounds and backs. It was pretty late, so I did not have much time to troubleshoot. I did try a processor reset, (of course I spaced saving my settings)...then skipped all of the setup steps in the wizard (I just wanted to see if I would get some sound out of the thing). I tried the radio to eliminate external devices. Nothing, no sound. I did not try any of the surround modes.

I have some thought on what I want to try, but also thought that some of the group might have better ideas.

So the question is, does anyone have any recommendations on how the best proceed with troubleshooting?
I hope to have some time this evening to get into it.

Thanks,
Phil
post #5822 of 7686

If "B" stock means open box or returned items, I'd strongly consider sending it back for a refund-don't let your return period go by! 

 

It is quite likely you can get a new unit with full warranty for not much more $ if you call jdsmoothie, see his contact info in this post above:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430049/the-official-denon-avr-4520ci-thread/5790#post_23781310

 

 

If you are intent on trying to get this unit to work, I suggest you repeat the reset procedure and observe the FPDisplay blink indicating it was successful.  It does not hurt to repeat if the problem remains.  Though you do not need to run Audyssey to test the unit, I would start the process to hear if the test tone is coming out of all the speakers.  Then you can run the minimum # of mic positions to save time completing it or cancel the process. 

post #5823 of 7686
"B" stock in this case means "factory refurbished". It does have a factory warranty and a 30 day return guarantee. Of course, If I can get the unit working, it will be preferable to boxing it up and returning it, or dealing with Denon service and being without it for ..who knows how long.

I did see the front panel indicate processor reset and display a full screen of squares. Looked like it did it. I turned on the radio to a local strong station, but got no output...
Now this IS aggravating. I have wanted one of these for months.

I turned it off and unplugged it from the wall overnight. Will try again this evening.

If I can't get it going, I will try to return it. That may be the quickest way to get something working back.
Edited by ppasteur - 9/30/13 at 11:45am
post #5824 of 7686
A BIT OT, but I know many here do the 9-11 channel thing- especially judging from the last few pages...

Anyway, I have an 11 channel array that I usually run in DSX W/H but on a whim I switched to just Dolby PL IIz (height) and I have to say I thought it was amazing. I tried a few titles I'm very familiar with and time and time again I found myself preferring the Dolby and "just" 9 channels vs DSX and 11. Really did.

Now, I have the 4311 and no Neo X, but I wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion for those with heights. I can't wait to try Neo X.

It REALLY sounds fantastic to me.

Good luck with your trials. smile.gif

James
post #5825 of 7686
Seriously, ditch it and get a new one mate..
You will sleep better and my Denon amps last for years fuss free..
post #5826 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

A BIT OT, but I know many here do the 9-11 channel thing- especially judging from the last few pages...

Anyway, I have an 11 channel array that I usually run in DSX W/H but on a whim I switched to just Dolby PL IIz (height) and I have to say I thought it was amazing. I tried a few titles I'm very familiar with and time and time again I found myself preferring the Dolby and "just" 9 channels vs DSX and 11. Really did.

Now, I have the 4311 and no Neo X, but I wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion for those with heights. I can't wait to try Neo X.

It REALLY sounds fantastic to me.

Good luck with your trials. smile.gif

James

 

I've long since considered PLIIz to be superior to DSX for height processing. DSX derives its info from the front R & L channels, which just seems wrong to me. If you turn off the main channels and listen to just the Heights, with DSX it is almost the same signal going into the Heights as the R&L, or this is how it seems subjectively. This creates the famous 'wall of sound' but I find this way too front-centric and counters the surround bubble I have worked hard to achieve. Also DSX lowers the level of the surrounds by about 3dB, which adds to the first problem. I just don't like the effect, but it's purely a preference thing with Heights and Wides of course. I have DTS Neo:X and I like that too with my heights, although I usually stick with PLIIz. Some movies seem to benefit from Neo:X though. For example on the Dolby True-HD Transformers 3 disc, if you cycle between PLIIz and Neo:X  while the movie is playing, the difference is incredible. It is especially noticeable even before the movie starts when the 'stars logo' whirls around the listening area.

post #5827 of 7686
^ yes. Without trying to sound too "duh", it (PLIIz) just executes the heights much better imo...just an improved "wall of sound" so to speak. I try not to make a big deal out of most audio stuff as I believe much of it is truly in the listener's mind (I mean imagination wink.gif ), but this is easily identifiable...and repeatable.

Just one of those you need to experience, I suppose.

James
post #5828 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by ppasteur View Post

"B" stock in this case means "factory refurbished". It does have a factory warranty and a 30 day return guarantee. Of course, If I can get the unit working, it will be preferable to boxing it up and returning it, or dealing with Denon service and being without it for ..who knows how long.

I did see the front panel indicate processor reset and display a full screen of squares. Looked like it did it. I turned on the radio to a local strong station, but got no output...
Now this IS aggravating. I have wanted one of these for months.

I turned it off and unplugged it from the wall overnight. Will try again this evening.

If I can't get it going, I will try to return it. That may be the quickest way to get something working back.

Factory warranty on refurbs is 1 year. Try doing multiple "deep" resets (ie. press/hold UP/DOWN arrow buttons while powering on the AVR and wait for the block of squares to flash about 4-5 seconds).
post #5829 of 7686
Yes, I know, one year. But, I have only had it three days.
I will try the multiple resets tonight. Then go through setup at least as far as letting the system identify the channels.

I found this in a previous post:
1. Press the Power button on the front while also pressing the "ZONE/REC SELECT" and "STATUS" buttons.
Release the buttons when the front display appears to show:
"> 1. SERVICE CHECK"
" 2. PROTECTION"
2. Press DOWN-ARROW once to select "2. PROTECTION" then click ENTER.
The unit will re-start in diagnostic mode and probably still playing your favorite CD.
3. When the unit has re-started, Press the STATUS button.
The display will show the reason for the protection mode.

Would you think that it (or maybe one of the other sub-menus) might yield something of use??
post #5830 of 7686
Just to let JD and all know... for what it is worth. I tried the reset, let it go into the detection phase of setup... I thought it was going to knock the woofers out of the right front speaker.
I decided to Call Denon. Went through some troubleshooting...more resets, with them. This time, as soon as I left setup, it put the subs into near overload. The CS on the phone just said, do you want an exchange or a refund. There are sending me a FedEx label to return it and sending me an exchange.

Pretty good customer service.

I think I will look in to getting the extended warranty.

Just for reference, I have bought 2 3808ci a 3312 and a 5700 as factory refurbs. I never had any problems with any of them . I am still using the two 3808s and the 3312 and the 5700 worked fine when it was last connected after 10+ years or so of service.
I guess there is a first time for everything.

Phil
Edited by ppasteur - 9/30/13 at 6:41pm
post #5831 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebellion View Post

Hey guys, I have a question. If I am outputting 2 channel Analog via Phono (Record Player) or via CD inputs and I have Main+LFE on in Bass management while in Direct mode. Is the Denon having to re digitize the signal to add the subwoofers? Or is the signal still staying analog with the Denon passing any LFE to the subs along with the mains?

I thought I had read somewhere that when adding the subs back into the mix that the AV has to re digitize the signal to do it. Am I correct or incorrect?

Thank you!

As far as I know there is no bass management in Direct Mode. Whatever is selected for the fronts, they are treated as Large. Setting your subwoofer to LFE+main just doubles the signal to your subwoofer. I would think no digitization is needed for this. Only if you can set your roll-off exactly right and matched with your fronts in your subwoofer, this will work correctly. Change of overpowering certain bass frequencies is high. I never managed to get satisfying results.
Mark
post #5832 of 7686
Quote:
If you had to choose wides or heights, but not both, which one would you choose?

Thank you

hsb

This would be best answered by the shape of your room in my opinion. My theater has a front screen wall thats wide - 23' wide, with 14' wide seating. So, putting wides in the corners to the left and right of the main speakers was a no brainer. If you had a very narrow theater, and no room to seperate the wides and main speakers, I don't think it would make as much sense. I've got almost 5' from the center of the left wide speaker to the left main speaker and 5' from the right wide speaker to the right main speaker.

Narrow but tall room? Heights might work better. I have a peaked ceiling - 11' tall. I measure almost 5' from the bottom of my Martin Logan Motion4 bookshelf height speaker, to the top of the Motion 40 mains.

So let the room shape determine which will work best. In my case, i was lucky enough to have a room where I could seperate all the speakers quite a bit.
Quote:
Craig - with the package deals that Parts Express is offering with DIY subwoofer flat pack + driver what's holding you back from that 2nd and 3rd sub?? (via our own DIY Sound Group gang)

Darn it, I'm getting another SVS sub to join the club. Too bad the only place to put it is right behind where my wife sits ( could bring new meaning to the term " butt kicker eek.gif ) ! smile.gif
post #5833 of 7686
When running Audyssey calibration, where and what order do I place the mic in? There used to be an onscreen numbering system to show you where to place the mic at each seating location (8). That is no longer shown. I have not done a Firmware upgrade since earlier this year. I have never had any issues with my 4520CI. Thanks...
post #5834 of 7686
Only the first position matters: it needs to be at the primary listening position. It's used by Audyssey to set the levels and distances. The others are just averaged together (using "fuzzy logic") and the order doesn't make any difference.

If you haven't already, please take the time to read the Audyssey 101/FAQ. The instructions in the receiver's owners manual are woefully inadequate. http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#post_21782993
post #5835 of 7686
Quote:
When running Audyssey calibration, where and what order do I place the mic in? There used to be an onscreen numbering system to show you where to place the mic at each seating location (8).
How to MultEQ
post #5836 of 7686
Is anyone running JRiver Media Center with the 4520? I have an Oppo BDP-105 with the asynchronous DAC in it and also a 3TB NAS hard drive that I was wanting to put my files on (CDs, SACDs, DVD-Audio) and wanted to use the Media Server function on the Denon 4520 to stream the music from the NAS to the HT room. Does anyone know if I can do this? I know the manual states that the biggest NAS you can use with the 4520 is a 2TB drive but don't know if it will have trouble with the 3TB drive? Do I need to connect my PC to the Oppo BDP-105 and use the asynchronous DAC to play DSD and DVD-Audio multichannel music? I have my CDs ripped to iTunes and JRiver Media Center in lossless WAV format and was going to put my SACDs in DSD format. I have an Apple TV box connected to my HT as well. Anyone out there know the best option to use to play the various formats?
post #5837 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

When running Audyssey calibration, where and what order do I place the mic in? There used to be an onscreen numbering system to show you where to place the mic at each seating location (8). That is no longer shown. I have not done a Firmware upgrade since earlier this year. I have never had any issues with my 4520CI. Thanks...

 

Everything you need to know is probably here:

 

d)3.   Where should I position the mic for best results?

post #5838 of 7686
I am running 9.1 right now with front heights. I want to add front wides making my HT 11.1. How far from the left and right speakers do I want to mount the wides? All of my speakers are inwalls... I have seen the diagrams with the different angles from the seated position, but what I am looking for is... Are the inside or outside the front heights and how far from the left and right channel speakers should they be? Thx!
post #5839 of 7686

^It is actually not about how far, it is about the angle to MLP.  The R Wide sits with tweeter at seated ear height like the other fronts, placed at 60 degrees (+/- 10) off the centerline.  That places it outside the FR (about 30 degrees off centerline) and FH , back towards the R surr (which is at about 90 degrees off centerline)-see below.  Wides need not be on the front wall, and are in fact often placed against on or in the side wall.  They need not be any particular distance from MLP as Audyssey will compensate for distance. 

 

 

700

 

 

You can simply shoot the placement while seated at MLP with a protractor and a laser pointer.  Or there are online right triangle calculators to help figure out the how-far-off the centerline distance.

 

With a room diagram with accurate distances showing MLP, walls and current speakers we can lend further help.

post #5840 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

I am running 9.1 right now with front heights. I want to add front wides making my HT 11.1. How far from the left and right speakers do I want to mount the wides? All of my speakers are inwalls... I have seen the diagrams with the different angles from the seated position, but what I am looking for is... Are the inside or outside the front heights and how far from the left and right channel speakers should they be? Thx!

 

SoM has given you a full response wrt to Audyssey DSX wides.  For information on wide speaker placement for DTS Neo:X, take a look at the attached document.

 

DTS_NeoX_White_Paper.pdf 657k .pdf file  

 

(I am making an assumption that Denons have DTS Neo:X)

post #5841 of 7686

^Interesting reference, Keith.  Cool, it looks like their wides have same placement=60 degrees.  And yes the 4520 has DTS Neo:X.

post #5842 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
 

^Interesting reference, Keith.  Cool, it looks like their wides have same placement=60 degrees.  And yes the 4520 has DTS Neo:X.

 

Yes, it's a useful paper. What I like about Neo:X is that, if they wished to, studios can mix for discrete 11.2 sound via Neo:X. Sadly, there have been only 3 discs so far that have taken advantage of it AFAIK. I don't have wides as you know but I do have heights and I find that my preference there is, in order, PLIIz, DTS Neo:X and, a distant third, DSX. Some movies are distinctly better with Neo:X for some reason but without constantly switching and swapping between them it's hard to get a handle on which of the hundreds of BDs I have will play better in PLIIz or Neo:X, so I usually use PLIIz, only occasionally trying Neo:X as an alternative. HST, Neo:X doesn't seem to have any real negatives from my perspective and I'd probably be happy to use it all the time. It's all preference anyway.

post #5843 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^It is actually not about how far, it is about the angle to MLP.  The R Wide sits with tweeter at seated ear height like the other fronts, placed at 60 degrees (+/- 10) off the centerline.  That places it outside the FR (about 30 degrees off centerline) and FH , back towards the R surr (which is at about 90 degrees off centerline)-see below.  Wides need not be on the front wall, and are in fact often placed against on or in the side wall.  They need not be any particular distance from MLP as Audyssey will compensate for distance. 


700



You can simply shoot the placement while seated at MLP with a protractor and a laser pointer.  Or there are online right triangle calculators to help figure out the how-far-off the centerline distance.

With a room diagram with accurate distances showing MLP, walls and current speakers we can lend further help.
Thank you so much for your help.
post #5844 of 7686
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

SoM has given you a full response wrt to Audyssey DSX wides.  For information on wide speaker placement for DTS Neo:X, take a look at the attached document.

DTS_NeoX_White_Paper.pdf 657k .pdf file  

(I am making an assumption that Denons have DTS Neo:X)
Thank you very much, but it looks like the diagram you attached has different placement for the heighs and wides compared to the diagram SoundofMind shows...
post #5845 of 7686
IMG_0029_2.jpg 641k .jpg file Here is a picture of my current setup. Trying to figure out where to put the front wides...
post #5846 of 7686
At the edge of the door closest to the seating, perhaps, and at the same distance on the other wall. Sometimes one must make compromises.
post #5847 of 7686
Thread Starter 
Funny to read some quotes in that whitepaper....
Quote:
the audio listening experience can be significantly improved by adding more sound sources with proper steering of directional cues. This is especially true when audio sources are positioned in front of, compared to behind, the listener.

This directly corroborates Audyssey's philosophy of "more in front" being needed due to our increased hearing directional sensitivity in the frontal hemisphere... but....

Quote:
A few systems already exist with Front-Height or Wide speakers for home theater. None, however, currently enable
discrete content that channels realistic sound cues to another plane in the soundstage - even when audio is mixed
specifically for these speakers. Most systems simply duplicate front left and right channel content. This can result in
unnatural audio imaging, where musical instruments are heard in strange locations and/or shift location from one speaker
to another.

ZING! A direct shot across the bow at DSX.
post #5848 of 7686
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

Thank you very much, but it looks like the diagram you attached has different placement for the heighs and wides compared to the diagram SoundofMind shows...

Not exactly true. Both systems recommend Front Wide placement at 60 degrees. The only difference is that the Front Height recommendation is 45 degrees off center for DSX, but only 30 degrees off center (directly above the front L/R mains) for Neo:X. From what I can see Neo:X doesn't specify an elevational angle, although it can be presumed that the effect will be more pronounced the more vertical separation you are able to achieve from the front L/R mains.

quoting from the DTS paper with my bolding:
Quote:
The Front-Height speakers (see figure below: Lh/Rh) should be positioned 30-degrees from center and directly above the Front left and right speakers. This enables them to introduce a vertical sound location that is appropriate for ambient sounds, such as rain and wind, and for dramatic overhead directional effects, such as aircraft soaring overhead. Wide channels (see figure below: Lw/Rw) expand the multi-channel soundstage and introduce yet another front- and side-facing sound location that is 60-degrees wide of the Center channel. This provides seamless tracking of front-to-side action, like the sound of an automobile passing by - from the front to the side of the audience.
post #5849 of 7686
Quote:
SoM has given you a full response wrt to Audyssey DSX wides. For information on wide speaker placement for DTS Neo:X, take a look at the attached document.



DTS_NeoX_White_Paper.pdf 657k .pdf file



(I am making an assumption that Denons have DTS Neo:X)

The representational picture of the home theater on page 4 is a reasonable 11.1 layout in most rooms. I sure like my 11.1 setup's sound with NEO:X. Got a 2nd subwoofer coming now. Just can't let any possible speaker connections on my 4520 go to waste, now can I ?? wink.gif
post #5850 of 7686

^^batpig, that's EXACTLY what I experience when I engage dsx wides for music.I only use them for film and they're great for that.

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