The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 3

Well, I picked one up locally today and am about to unbox it and compare it with my Onkyo 3009.  Most likely I will keep the Denon as I've always liked them before, starting with my venerable 4806 which is still going strong in my home office.  I recently went with the Onkyo for the 9.2 setup and other reasons, but am having second thoughts.  As long as the new Denon works as advertised, I will probably sell the Onkyo at a good price just to recoup some of the costs.  Off to the unboxing and all of the re-wiring involved in the switch.

Ok, I spent quite some time with un-wiring the Onkyo and then replacing it with the Denon and re-wiring, so the equipment room is a bit...chaotic.  Anyway, I was surprised to find that the Denon is actually smaller and lighter than the Onkyo 3009.  I am attaching a few quick (emphasis on quick) photos of the Denon and a couple with the Onkyo to show the size difference.  It was pretty straight forward in setting up the Denon - in fact, the speaker setup guide is so simplistic that it seems like it was written for a novice, not for a high end AVR.  I got all 11.1 speakers connected and tried a few blu rays as well as some streaming online from Amazon and Vudu.  The Audyssey works exactly like the Onkyo did with the 8 positions but with a prettier GUI (not important, just a note).  My HT is pretty big (20' screen wall wide, by 32' depth with seats at 14' projecting on a 127" wide 2.35 screen) so I was interested to see (hear) how the sound was with the additional speakers.  It was quite enveloping, to say the least.  The initial sub calibration almost brought my sconces down - they tell you to set the sub at 12 o'clock volume (half) to begin adjustment.  I have a fairly large SVS sub and that seemed high, but I tried it.  The reading went immediately into red numbers as the walls shook and I was told to reset it down to 75db which was about at 20-25% gain max.  After that, all went smoothly.  I'm slowly getting familiar with the various settings and how they differ from the Onkyo and have already started programming my MX-3000 since the Denon sits in a separate equipment room.  My early feeling about the gui and settings is that the Denon is a bit more friendly than the Onkyo when changing audio options, etc.  Plenty of power to drive the 9.1 speakers and I am using an old Pioneer AVR as the amp for the 2 front heights.  I will likely pick up an amp soon though for a cleaner install.   One really nice feature I like is the built-in 4 port ethernet switch, so you can link your other gear directly.  I placed two exhaust fans on top that I had on the hot running Onkyo, but I don't know if they are needed or not.  I took a shot of my old Denon 4806 remote next to the new one, just for comparison.   Anyway, enough rambling, here are a few snapshots (I like to take good photographs, and these are not - these are "snapshots" to fill the immediate need):

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 


Nice initial report, Ray. What is that wire taped to the front, a remote control sensor? Did the 4520 come with a second, smaller remote like previous Denon AVR's have had? Where did you purchase it? Did you get a discounted price?

Thanks.  The wire is a flasher from the MX-3000 and was quick-taped there for initial testing of remote functions.  Since the 4520CI is so new, it is not in the URC database and I was unsure whether the older models (4311, etc) use the same codes.  Now that I have many of the codes "learned", I have removed the wire and made a direct connection to the IR In on the 4520. 

No, the 4520 does not come with a 2nd smaller remote, but I don't miss it or need it.  YMMV.  I got it a local BB and did not get a discount.  Only discount I have seen is via Ebay and I didn't want to do that for my own reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsmoothie 

@flint350 -
Rather than taping the IR flasher over the front panel display, you may want to consider using the Remote Control IN jack (see image below) on the back panel.

Thanks.  The only reason I had it wired/taped was for initial convenience in setup in my equipment room and to do some testing.  I have since hard wired it into the IR on the back as you suggested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by batpig 


did you use Audyssey DSX or DTS Neo:X for 11ch expansion?
thanks for the early feedback!!
looking at the manual it appears Denon has streamlined their GUI offering and standardized it across all models, so (unlike with previous years) the 4520CI menus are the same as those on the much cheaper models...

I have listened to both in 11 channel and can tell a difference, but have yet to settle on which I prefer.  Some of it likely has to do with the original signal being Dolby vs DTS and the interpretations of the codecs.  My initial impression was not to dislike one but just to sense that they do respond differently.  It will take some more listening to really compare them.  My speakers are all Def Tech with the fronts being BP7002 amplified towers and amplified 3000CLR center.  The surrounds and rear surrounds are BPVX, which are matched and also dipolar like the fronts.  I added the best matching monopoles I could for the Wides and Heights by going with the ProMonitor 1000's by DefTech.  The sub is an SVS PB12 Ultra 2 with BASH amp.  I am currently using a leftover Pioneer AVR as the secondary amp for the height speakers and am considering something like an Emotiva UPA-200 instead - though the Pioneer is working just fine. 

That Denon has streamlined the GUI is an understatement.  The onscreen guide to connecting speakers literally shows diagrams (exactly alike) for each speaker and the 2 wires to connect and red=+, black= -, etc.  They repeat this for each speaker.  Yeah, it's been dumbed down, but I guess that's better than some manuals that are nearly indecipherable.  To their credit, the pdf manual on the DVD has a "basic" and "advanced" tab to allow a more experienced user to cut to the chase and find the nitty gritty details they need while allowing the less informed to start from scratch.

I'll be glad to answer any other questions I can (I'm no expert by any means).  Now that things are under control, I will be tidying up the wiring and rack and getting into the specifics of the 4520 and its detailed operation.

Since this is the first time I've needed a second amp due to extra channels to drive, I have a question.  As I said, I'm using a Pioneer AVR (110 watts/chnl) for the Heights.  Is there any preferred method to connecting the speakers?  I am simply using the DVD input and a Pure Stereo setting to be sure to bypass any audio processing.  I also calibrated with the Pioneer's volume at a specific level that can be checked in case the knob gets moved, etc.  Anything I'm missing here?  Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsmoothie 


1. Perhaps you could comment on some of the newer features to include: Audyssey LFC, Picture Mode, and Dialogue Enhancer?
2. Was a firmware update required when you first powered on the AVR?
3. Reliability of the 4-port ethernet hub?
Nope. Looks good.

Well, the LFC is intended to contain the LFE so as not to leave the room (i.e. not wake your neighbors or knock over the toaster oven in the kitchen).  I can turn it on and compare, but I really have no use for it as my HT is a dedicated room and my house sits well apart from any neighbors to bother.  As for the spouse factor, mine saw the light and dumped my butt some years back, so I live alone and don't have to deal with that    .    No firmware update was available as of yesterday.  The hub is working just fine - and is actually one of my fav features as I have removed the 4 port switch I had in the room previously, making one less powered and wired device.  I have streamed via a PS3 and a Roku with no problems whatever.  Reliability over the long haul is, of course, too soon to tell, but I see no reason why it should be a problem.

Picture mode is basically a poor man's CMS and since my projector is fully calibrated, I don't have much use for it.  The only mode I may try to use is "Streaming - for low bit rate video sources" just to see if it makes any difference, like color space.  The options when selected are Color, Saturation, Hue, Noise Reduction and Enhancer (which appears to be sharpness).

The Dialogue feature is 2 part.  Enhancer makes the human voice "clearer" and can be adjusted via low, medium and high settings.  I haven't yet played with it yet, but plan to try it on/off.  There is also Dialogue Normalization which is ON when Loudness is on and also includes Dynamic Compression.  The Dialog Normalization is shown on the front panel (if it's on, obviously) as an offset amount in dB correction to the standard signal.  It is only info and cannot be adjusted, so you either like it or not and turn it off.  Again, I haven't had time to get that deep into experimenting with features, but I will.

Thanks for the info on the 2nd amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irwinroad 

The product sheet shows that URC is an "Integration Partner" and since the IR codes are released
how long does it take URC to get them in their database?

Not sure, but traditionally, they have been a bit slow to add components.  I have had success in many cases by using the codes from previous models on many items.  However, this unit has a few features that are new and/or buried in menus, so a direct code would be nice to have.  Most of the codes that I have working right now I simply got using the "learn" method of the MX-3000. 

Ok, I have spent some time now looking into the features and must say, generally I am very pleased.  Enough so, that my Onkyo 3009 is going up for sale and I am committed to keeping the 4530CI.  To keep things even, I used one movie, Thor HD, that is available in 3 formats: bluray, media server on hdd backup, and streaming.  The streaming was done via 2 sources on Amazon Prime - the Roku 2 and PS3.  I did this because I notice a distinct image difference between the Roku and PS3, especially with the Onkyo which never got along well with the Roku at all.  In fact, the Roku and Onkyo were so bad together that it was 1 of my reasons to look into the Denon in the 1st place, though not the only one.

First, LFC.  The bottom line in my setup is that LFC does what it is intended to do, but I will default to it off.  I played and re-played 2 bass heavy and effect sections of Thor (early on when he falls from the sky; and the fight in the heavy rain at the tent compound).  The tricky part is that it is not quick to just turn the feature on/off.  It is in the Audio menu and I don't see a way to simply engage it.  However, it wasn't too difficult to re-play the same sections over several times and compare.  In the HT itself, with LFC 'off', the subwoofer and big towers make a thundering presence that could easily travel out of the room and upstairs.  I went upstairs to listen and could hear and feel the bass.  With LFC on, the boom was reduced noticeably at the default '4' containment setting while still maintaining reasonable bass.  Upon going upstairs again, it was much less evident.  However, my personal choice was LFC off.  I don't mean to imply that I like the bass boomy - the room is well calibrated and dampened and the extra boom is visceral.  I can see the use of LFC for those who simply need such a thing and don't want to mess with their Audyssey calibration.  To me, the benefit of LFC is that it takes the edge off of the 'boom and thud' while keeping decent bass response and not requiring that you adjust your sub or other inputs which would affect your calibration.  So, in that regard, I think it is quite useful, if you need it.

Second, Picture Mode.  Once your various inputs are set in the Denon setup menu, simply hitting "menu" on the remote brings up the Picture Mode selection.  Once active, it has a single line menu item at the bottom of the screen and you can move through the choices while looking at the image onscreen.  First, my projector is fully calibrated so I had a good base image to start with.  As I moved through the modes, I could easily see the corrections being introduced and was impressed that they were noticeable but not over bearing.  Rotating thru 'off', 'standard', 'movie', 'vivid', 'streaming' and 'custom', I could see what was happening.  Vivid was the least useful in my setup but the others were pleasing if not always improvements.  The 2 that did offer help to me were streaming and custom.  Streaming adjusts for low bit rate in a subtle way and custom allowed for correcting a specific input - in my case, the Roku - without disturbing the rest of my setup.  Using custom, I was able to adjust brightness, contrast, hue, saturation to taste while leaving noise reduction and enhancer alone.  It definitely helped the streaming image of Amazon over the Roku and somewhat on the PS3, though the PS3 is better to begin with.  For me, even with a calibrated system, Picture Mode will still be handy when switching from bluray to streaming.  I had been doing much of that same thing in the color memory of the projector.

The Dialogue Enhancer basically increases the emphasis on the center channel as you select from 'off' to low, medium and high.  It works as advertised and didn't seem to overdo enough to destroy or even damage the front soundstage.  At high, it was beginning to be too noticeable for me, but just beginning.  At least for now, I will leave it off as my system sounds fine as is.  But, it is there for problematic situations.  Depending on your speakers, it could be very useful to you.

Another nice feature is that the 4520 supports image stretch for 2.35 aspect ratio movies.  I use an A-lens for my 2.35 screen and also have the aspect control within my projector, but it's nice to have it in the AVR as well.  I did a comparison and couldn't honestly see any difference in the image between them, so it will be a matter of which is easier to engage.  For much of these video settings, you have to have the Video Conversion feature ON.  This brings up several sub-menus that allow for other adjustments.  You can set the resolution manually or auto and it supports 1080p/24 as well as upscale to 4K, which I did not use.  Pretty much everything I send is 1080 so the only real 'conversion' going on is if a 1080i signal is input, the AVR will convert it to 1080p. 

Overall, so far I am very pleased with the Denon.  The menus are more user friendly than the Onkyo was and the performance so far is at least as good and with 11.1 channels even better.  The only thing missing that the Onkyo has (and I really don't miss) is THX.  I never used those modes in the Onkyo anyway, so it's a non-issue for me.  All the DTS, Neo, Dolby and Audyssey codecs are there and they sound terrific.  The fight scene in the rain at the tent in Thor took on a whole new dimension with the addition of Wides, Heights and Rear Surrounds all at the same time.  I almost got up to wash the mud off and get a towel to dry myself when that was over.    Sorry for the length, but I wanted to be somewhat thorough.