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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 216

post #6451 of 7680
My music collection includes many Hi-Res flac files: 24bit-44kHz, -88.2kHz, -176kHz, -192kHz. I play these files using JRiver on my HTPC, connected to the Denon AVR-4520 via HDMI.

Is it true that if Audyssey is engaged, the Denon will not pass high res files? Although the AVR display shows the native resolutions, does Audyssey ultimately downsample the files?

I'm interested in comments about this. And if true, what is the best way to play music using the native sampling rates.

Thanks,
Herb...
post #6452 of 7680
It was recently revealed that no current receiver using Audyssey has the processing power to be able to apply Audyssey to sampling rates higher than about 48 KHz. As a result, the output frequencies are limited to about 24 Khz. This is still well above the human audio range.

The "need" for higher sampling rates in audio tracks is snake-oil. Most of the high bitrate files actually contain noise or silence in their upper frequencies. The difference in audio quality is not due to the sampling rate at all. It's due to the quality of the original recording tracks and the quality of the processing done in the mixing of the tracks sold to consumers. Often more care is used in producing sound tracks which are expected to be destined for high bitrate reproduction.
post #6453 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

It was recently revealed that no current receiver using Audyssey has the processing power to be able to apply Audyssey to sampling rates higher than about 48 KHz. As a result, the output frequencies are limited to about 24 Khz. This is still well above the human audio range.

The "need" for higher sampling rates in audio tracks is snake-oil. Most of the high bitrate files actually contain noise or silence in their upper frequencies. The difference in audio quality is not due to the sampling rate at all. It's due to the quality of the original recording tracks and the quality of the processing done in the mixing of the tracks sold to consumers.

+1
post #6454 of 7680
So Denon is going to send me a fed ex shopping label so I don't have to pay to shipp back a second time
That makes me a bit happier
Will keep every one informed
I hope they just swap it out
As I am scared it will damage my speakers again
post #6455 of 7680
Think that allows you to also call & schedule a pick-up.
post #6456 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

It was recently revealed that no current receiver using Audyssey has the processing power to be able to apply Audyssey to sampling rates higher than about 48 KHz. As a result, the output frequencies are limited to about 24 Khz. This is still well above the human audio range.

The "need" for higher sampling rates in audio tracks is snake-oil. Most of the high bitrate files actually contain noise or silence in their upper frequencies. The difference in audio quality is not due to the sampling rate at all. It's due to the quality of the original recording tracks and the quality of the processing done in the mixing of the tracks sold to consumers. Often more care is used in producing sound tracks which are expected to be destined for high bitrate reproduction.

 

Agreed entirely. The corollary to this is that running with Audyssey disengaged in order to be able to achieve the mythical benefits of higher sampling rates is likely to result in a far worse sound than using Audyssey and accepting a limitation of 24kHz. 

post #6457 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by howard68 View Post

So Denon is going to send me a fed ex shopping label so I don't have to pay to shipp back a second time
That makes me a bit happier
Will keep every one informed
I hope they just swap it out
As I am scared it will damage my speakers again

 

Good luck with it this time. 

 

(And I do like the haiku-esque nature of your posts)

post #6458 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Good luck with it this time. 

(And I do like the haiku-esque nature of your posts)

Lol!
post #6459 of 7680
I just got a Denon 4520 and will compare with the 7008 that I have...
post #6460 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by llep64 View Post

I just got a Denon 4520 and will compare with the 7008 that I have...

Eagerly awaiting...biggrin.gif
post #6461 of 7680
After a year of having constant trouble with internet and USB connections on my early production 4520, including two failed repair attempts, I finally got a brand new receiver under warranty. Everything is okay now. I only noticed that everything seemed louder than before. I usually play movies at around -12dB, serious music listening at -18dB and regular music/television at about -25dB. As movies and cd's differ so much in perceived loudness and memory is tricky, I checked Audyssey speaker settings and compared them to earlier settings I wrote down before: on ALL speakers there is an increase of (almost) 6 dB, so -5 is +1, and -1 is +5 now. Distances are exactly the same as before. So they definitely changed some things in Audyssey measurements and/or Volume control. I had to recalibrate my powered sub too in the first stage of Audyssey I remembered then.

Does anybody know what made this change in Audyssey? Reference level offset is at 0dB. No Dynamic Volume, no LFC. The effect of Loudness Control seems a little less at lower volumes, but again, memory is tricky. Any insight is welcome.

Mark
post #6462 of 7680
This "flagship" receiver sure seems to have alot of issues.
post #6463 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhooper1963 View Post

This "flagship" receiver sure seems to have alot of issues.
Not really. Just like anything else on the internet, you are going to hear about bad experiences first. More people are going to give a bad review than a good review because the people with defective units have time or will take the time to write about it compared to the people that have good units enjoying them and have no need to get on the internet and talk about it. I thought everybody knew that by now.
post #6464 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed entirely. The corollary to this is that running with Audyssey disengaged in order to be able to achieve the mythical benefits of higher sampling rates is likely to result in a far worse sound than using Audyssey and accepting a limitation of 24kHz. 

Is there a simple way to turn off Audyssey for 2 channel sources? It would be great to compare the high resolution flac files to the downsampled Audyssey versions.
post #6465 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbg View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed entirely. The corollary to this is that running with Audyssey disengaged in order to be able to achieve the mythical benefits of higher sampling rates is likely to result in a far worse sound than using Audyssey and accepting a limitation of 24kHz. 

Is there a simple way to turn off Audyssey for 2 channel sources? It would be great to compare the high resolution flac files to the downsampled Audyssey versions.

Select Direct mode. It disables all audio processing.
post #6466 of 7680

herb, you can easily turn Aud on and off for any source.  Doesn't the 4520 have an "EQ" button on the remote that cycles thru to Aud Off?

post #6467 of 7680
Quote:
This "flagship" receiver sure seems to have alot of issues.

I haven't heard of any problems from the many folks I've sold one to. And I have not had any issues with mine. Then again, I only use mine as an 11.2 channel home theater receiver - I don't use zones, streaming or any other " features " .
post #6468 of 7680
Thread Starter 
There were a decent number of issues reported on this thread way back with early run models, but for the past many months this receiver has seemed virtually problem free based on anecdotal posts in this thread.
post #6469 of 7680
For those of you who stepped up from 4311 to 4520 any pluses you can share with me please? Upgrade bug has bitten and a few years ago I gave myself the 4311 as a birthday present to myself - that day is coming soon. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
post #6470 of 7680
^^^ look on the 1st page where batpig compares the 4311 to the 4520
post #6471 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

For those of you who stepped up from 4311 to 4520 any pluses you can share with me please? Upgrade bug has bitten and a few years ago I gave myself the 4311 as a birthday present to myself - that day is coming soon. Thanks in advance for any thoughts.
I upgraded to the 4520 from a 4311. I wanted Neo X, 11.2 and Menu's on 3D. Sound quality seemed the same, though I will say the noise floor seems lower on the 4520, but was never an issue or noticeable until I went looking for it. There is better speaker level control on the 4311 and the 4311 has better display information (in and out signal displays).

Unless you are looking for one of the features I mentioned, there really isn't a reason to get a 4520. Feel free to buy mine when the next Denon comes out. wink.gif
post #6472 of 7680
Will Denon announce the replacement for the 4520 at CES or is it too early?
post #6473 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

I upgraded to the 4520 from a 4311. I wanted Neo X, 11.2 and Menu's on 3D. Sound quality seemed the same, though I will say the noise floor seems lower on the 4520, but was never an issue or noticeable until I went looking for it. There is better speaker level control on the 4311 and the 4311 has better display information (in and out signal displays).

Unless you are looking for one of the features I mentioned, there really isn't a reason to get a 4520. Feel free to buy mine when the next Denon comes out. wink.gif

Hi Dreamliner,
There is much improvement from DSX to Neo X in 11.2...or is it matter of preference?
What are the difference between this 2 technologies?
Regards,
post #6474 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by evo5 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

I upgraded to the 4520 from a 4311. I wanted Neo X, 11.2 and Menu's on 3D. Sound quality seemed the same, though I will say the noise floor seems lower on the 4520, but was never an issue or noticeable until I went looking for it. There is better speaker level control on the 4311 and the 4311 has better display information (in and out signal displays).

Unless you are looking for one of the features I mentioned, there really isn't a reason to get a 4520. Feel free to buy mine when the next Denon comes out. wink.gif

Hi Dreamliner,
There is much improvement from DSX to Neo X in 11.2...or is it matter of preference?
What are the difference between this 2 technologies?
Regards,

 

Not Dreamliner, but..

 

There are quite big differences between Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X. Primarily, this is in the way the additional information for the wide or height speakers is created.

 

DSX generates early reflections for the height and wide speakers. These reflections were not in the original soundtrack and DSX creates them or synthesises them, to give the impression that you are listening in a larger room than you actually are sitting in.

 

Neo:X, however, extracts ambient information from the soundtrack and directs that extracted information to the wides and heights.

 

These two important differences create quite different results on listening. Personally I prefer Neo:X to DSX, but this is a matter of choice as this is a preference issue - there are no discretely coded 11 channel soundtracks yet.

 

If you only have Height speakers, there is another option which is Dolby PLIIz. For Heights-only my preference order is PLIIz, Neo:X and DSX last.

 

PLIIz extracts the information for the height speakers from the surround channels whereas DSX generates it from the front left and right channels. This makes DSX give a 'wall of sound' effect at the front which, for me, destroys the all-important 'surround bubble'. I believe Neo:X gets the information from the front and surround channels for the respective right and left 'sides'. 

 

So they all have their own methods and only you can decide which you prefer. If you have the ability to easily isolate the wide and height channels (ie by turning off the amps for the other channels) it is instructive to play content using just the height/wide speakers and hearing the differences between the different DSPs. They are quite pronounced.

post #6475 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not Dreamliner, but..

There are quite big differences between Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X. Primarily, this is in the way the additional information for the wide or height speakers is created.

DSX generates early reflections for the height and wide speakers. These reflections were not in the original soundtrack and DSX creates them or synthesises them, to give the impression that you are listening in a larger room than you actually are sitting in.

Neo:X, however, extracts ambient information from the soundtrack and directs that extracted information to the wides and heights.

These two important differences create quite different results on listening. Personally I prefer Neo:X to DSX, but this is a matter of choice as this is a preference issue - there are no discretely coded 11 channel soundtracks yet.

If you only have Height speakers, there is another option which is Dolby PLIIz. For Heights-only my preference order is PLIIz, Neo:X and DSX last.

PLIIz extracts the information for the height speakers from the surround channels whereas DSX generates it from the front left and right channels. This makes DSX give a 'wall of sound' effect at the front which, for me, destroys the all-important 'surround bubble'. I believe Neo:X gets the information from the front and surround channels for the respective right and left 'sides'. 

So they all have their own methods and only you can decide which you prefer. If you have the ability to easily isolate the wide and height channels (ie by turning off the amps for the other channels) it is instructive to play content using just the height/wide speakers and hearing the differences between the different DSPs. They are quite pronounced.

Nice explanation!
post #6476 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
 
Nice explanation!

 

Thanks. I just spotted your HT thread (nice BTW) and see you have external amps, so you can easily do a useful test.

 

Pick a movie that you would expect had something in the Height and/or wide channels. Then play it with all amps turned off other than the Height channels (and later the wides if you have both). Then, with the content on 'repeat' on your BD player, cycle between the different DSPs. You will hear very significant differences as you go from DSX to PLIIz to Neo:X, with the biggest difference being between DSX and the other two.  If you are anything like me you will be amazed at how much content DSX puts up into the Height speakers - sometimes it seems almost as if it is replicating the front L & R up there!. Rinse and repeat until you have had enough and then repeat the exercise using all available channels at the same time, as normal. Eventually, hopefully, you will find one of the DSPs which you prefer over the others and can settle on it.

 

If you have Dredd or The Expendables (might be Expendables 2) they have tracks that have been 'optimised' for Neo:X and the discs include an 11.1 'sound check' which isolates each speaker and plays content through it. It is hard to see how discretely encoded 11.1 could be  better - there is just no leakage at all from the heights to the other speakers (I don't run wides here).

post #6477 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks. I just spotted your HT thread (nice BTW) and see you have external amps, so you can easily do a useful test.

Pick a movie that you would expect had something in the Height and/or wide channels. Then play it with all amps turned off other than the Height channels (and later the wides if you have both). Then, with the content on 'repeat' on your BD player, cycle between the different DSPs. You will hear very significant differences as you go from DSX to PLIIz to Neo:X, with the biggest difference being between DSX and the other two.  If you are anything like me you will be amazed at how much content DSX puts up into the Height speakers - sometimes it seems almost as if it is replicating the front L & R up there!. Rinse and repeat until you have had enough and then repeat the exercise using all available channels at the same time, as normal. Eventually, hopefully, you will find one of the DSPs which you prefer over the others and can settle on it.

If you have Dredd or The Expendables (might be Expendables 2) they have tracks that have been 'optimised' for Neo:X and the discs include an 11.1 'sound check' which isolates each speaker and plays content through it. It is hard to see how discretely encoded 11.1 could be  better - there is just no leakage at all from the heights to the other speakers (I don't run wides here).

Thanks!

I have listened to DSX and NeoX and strongly prefer NeoX as well. I have not done the test you are talking about but I will try it. That is a really good idea! The biggest difference that I notice between the two is that Neo:X sounds natural to me. When I watch a movie, I feel like I get the 3D sound field to full effect without a hiccup. I have not noticed dialog spread out to the wide speakers either like I did in DSX. Maybe that was the content, I don't know? Also, DSX sounded flat to me as in not so much of a 3D sound.

This is the best way that I can describe the difference. i am not good at explaining things though.
post #6478 of 7680
I prefer NeoX as well, however I do like what DSX does to the front stage. I run wides, not heights and DSX really adds width to the front soundstage. However it does that at the expense of the surrounds. I've read where DSX actually cuts the surrounds by 3 dBs and that sounds about right. I wish I could use DSX for the front stage and NeoX for the surrounds.
post #6479 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not Dreamliner, but..

There are quite big differences between Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X. Primarily, this is in the way the additional information for the wide or height speakers is created.

DSX generates early reflections for the height and wide speakers. These reflections were not in the original soundtrack and DSX creates them or synthesises them, to give the impression that you are listening in a larger room than you actually are sitting in.

Neo:X, however, extracts ambient information from the soundtrack and directs that extracted information to the wides and heights.

These two important differences create quite different results on listening. Personally I prefer Neo:X to DSX, but this is a matter of choice as this is a preference issue - there are no discretely coded 11 channel soundtracks yet.

If you only have Height speakers, there is another option which is Dolby PLIIz. For Heights-only my preference order is PLIIz, Neo:X and DSX last.

PLIIz extracts the information for the height speakers from the surround channels whereas DSX generates it from the front left and right channels. This makes DSX give a 'wall of sound' effect at the front which, for me, destroys the all-important 'surround bubble'. I believe Neo:X gets the information from the front and surround channels for the respective right and left 'sides'. 

So they all have their own methods and only you can decide which you prefer. If you have the ability to easily isolate the wide and height channels (ie by turning off the amps for the other channels) it is instructive to play content using just the height/wide speakers and hearing the differences between the different DSPs. They are quite pronounced.

Thank you kbarnes, great explanation.
post #6480 of 7680
Quote:
Originally Posted by howard68 View Post

So Denon is going to send me a fed ex shopping label so I don't have to pay to shipp back a second time
That makes me a bit happier
Will keep every one informed
I hope they just swap it out
As I am scared it will damage my speakers again


Good luck and hopefully it all gets fixed. I am going through the same thing although for a different problem. They paid for me sending back and I have given them pics etc of the problem. if I get it back with no changes or if it keeps happening I am going to lose my mind. This is getting ridiculous.

Fingers crossed for both of us!
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