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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 230

post #6871 of 7685
Being able to reload configurations quickly would be very useful when one has to manage multiple Audyssey calibrations. E.g. to switch between the calibration for a front-projection screen lowered in front of the speakers (and TV), and a calibration with the screen up while watching TV.
post #6872 of 7685
Has anyone heard if the HDMI chip is capable of 2.0 with a firmware update?
post #6873 of 7685
With reference to recent posts about the Network settings, I found with my setup the 'always on' setting gave me a number of corrupted network saves, eg 0 byte files. Since changing to 'off in standby' I have been able to make numerous saves & loads with not a single failure. At present I have not attempted to diagnose root cause, it's not a priority, although having my Kuro connected via the Denon in-built hub does mean I have to reinitialize it's IP control whenever I want to access it (not very often, hence low priority).
For a compulsive tweaker, like many here, the reliable save/load of the Denon is one of its major strengths - along with its great feature set and wonderful sound.
Regards, Mike.
post #6874 of 7685
^^

Some Denon owners of other models have noted that setting the Network Standby to "Off in Standby" has resulted in a successful SAVE when the "Always On" setting did not.
post #6875 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyjake View Post

Has anyone heard if the HDMI chip is capable of 2.0 with a firmware update?

AFAIK, there will be no update, rather the successor model should be HDMI 2.0.
post #6876 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Well, it is what it is. Being able to backup and restore configuration files is a tremendous advantage. Ask an Onkyo owner if they would be unhappy being able to save configurations if it took 10 minutes. If this were something you needed to do ten times a day, then I agree, ten minutes would be tedious. But you save a configuration file occasionally, so I'm just not understanding why you think it is absolutely inadequate.

The fact is that it is inadequate, because somebody, probably of the designers of this receiver, saved the company ~3$ for an adequately fast way of doing the configuration backup/restore, which for a top-grade hardware that costs $2000+ is unforgivable.

Also I've contacted the online customer support with my question about the Bi-Amping and they just told me to call a "local" distributor to help me with this questions. I've bought the receiver from Amazon.UK, so I assume that I could contact the UK support, however I live in Bulgaria, and apparently I've selected Bulgaria in their online support page, so they've just given me the local dealership number to call for support. This is unbelievably irritating from my point of view, especially because the local dealer is not very eager to give me much attention, since I haven't bought the receiver from them. Why is there an online support anyway, if the only thing they do is point you to the nearest dealership?

So what I gather up until now is that:
1. The designers save money to the company by not integrating stuff for ~3$;
2. The online support save money to the company by not helping in any way, only forwarding you to someone else. This being my second try to contact the online support with a different question. My first question was supposed to be forwarded to the developers team, however the inadequate online support again told me to contact my local dealer, who has nothing to do with the question at all and could not possibly have an answer for it.
3. The people who wrote the User Manual didn't do a very good job describing how to do Bi-Amping correctly.

Anyway I was able to talk to the local dealer on the phone for about 5 minutes about the Bi-Amping, before he in my opinion eagerly hang up (maybe he had real clients with him), and ask him about the Bi-Amping, and he instructed me to connect my Surround Back speakers to Front Height or Front Wide, the "low" frequency part of my front speakers to Front, and the "high" frequency part to Surround Back (which he said is the only assignable connection for Bi-Amping in 7.1 configuration). And he said I should select 7.1ch/2ch FRONT(Bi-Amp) in Assign Mode. Also he said that the Audyssey should work correctly in this configuration. Can anyone confirm this is the correct way to do it?

Also I'd like to know what is the difference between "7.1ch/2ch FRONT(Bi-Amp)" and "7.1ch(Bi-Amp)" in Assign Mode?
Edited by wysiwygbg - 1/31/14 at 5:11am
post #6877 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^

Some Denon owners of other models have noted that setting the Network Standby to "Off in Standby" has resulted in a successful SAVE when the "Always On" setting did not.

Since I was the one advocating the "Network always on" setting, I concur that the network save functionality is indeed more reliable with the "Off in Standby" mode. I mention this in my configuration save instructions post, and always remember to flip the network setting when making a save. Good point.
Edited by AustinJerry - 1/31/14 at 11:31am
post #6878 of 7685
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post

Anyway I was able to talk to the local dealer on the phone for about 5 minutes about the Bi-Amping, before he in my opinion eagerly hang up (maybe he had real clients with him), and ask him about the Bi-Amping, and he instructed me to connect my Surround Back speakers to Front Height or Front Wide, the "low" frequency part of my front speakers to Front, and the "high" frequency part to Surround Back (which he said is the only assignable connection for Bi-Amping in 7.1 configuration). And he said I should select 7.1ch/2ch FRONT(Bi-Amp) in Assign Mode. Also he said that the Audyssey should work correctly in this configuration. Can anyone confirm this is the correct way to do it?

Pretend you never spoke with that guy, just wipe his advice from your memory because it's wrong. So many things he said are wrong.

I will leave aside the lecture about how it's basically pointless to bi-amp with the receiver's internal amps, I assume you have hung around here long enough to know that's the "official" consensus and that you shouldn't expect any actual audible improvements. That being said, here's how it works....

A few good reference points in the manual are the Amp Assign flow chart on pg 140 and the tables relating Amp Assign mode to speaker output on pp 177-183. Unfortunately the "Speaker connection" section on pp 93-98 isn't totally comprehensive on diagramming connections for all the potential Amp Assign modes

Important points:

1. It doesn't matter which you connect to the lows vs. the highs because there is no active crossover inside the receiver splitting the signal into high/low components; rather, each set of amps set for bi-amping is producing a simple duplicate, full range signal. The passive crossover inside the speaker is going to do the work of filtering out the relevant frequencies (another reason why it's sort of pointless)

2. The mode he told you to use (7.1ch/2ch Front Bi-Amp) is the WRONG mode to use. That mode is used for when you have a SEPARATE pair of dedicated 2ch speakers, independent of a standard 7.1ch setup. The primary 7 pairs of binding posts power the 7.1 setup, and the Front Height + Front Wide posts are used to bi-amp a second pair of 2ch speakers. When in this Amp Assign setting toggling from a multich surround mode to a 2ch mode will automitacally mute the 7.1 setup and activate the 4 channels assigned to bi-amp (internally switching a pair of amps to pair with the 8th/9th channels). You can see this diagrammed in the chart on pg 181, and as the flow chart on pg 140 indicates this mode limits you to a standard 7.1ch config (5.1+SB) for the main setup, because the FWide and FHeight terminals are dedicated to bi-amping the 2ch rig. Any time you see the "2ch" in an Amp Assign setting name, that is Denon-ese for a SEPARATE pair of 2ch speakers distinct form the main multich rig.

3. The correct setting you want is "7.1ch/Bi-Amp". After you set the Amp Assign mode to "7.1ch/Bi-Amp" then you use the "Main Speakers" setting (pg. 100 or 141 of the manual) to designate which two of the "extra" channels beyond 5.1 you want to have available. Then you wire the 2nd pair for bi-amp connection to the pair of speaker channel binding posts you will NOT be using. For example, if you set "Main Speakers" to "S.Back/F.Height" then you are telling the receiver you want the option to use Surround Back or Front Height speakers. This means the Front Wide speakers will NOT be used and therefore you wire the bi-amp connection to the Front WIDE speaker terminals.

4. Note that with this setting you can still use Audyssey to calibrate a full 9ch setup, but because 2 channels are being used for bi-amp only 7 total channels can be in use at any time. So in the above example, when you are using the F.Wide speaker posts for bi-amping, you can have calibrate 9 channels (5.1 + F.Height + Surr.Back) but can only actually run a maximum of 7 channels in actual use, i.e. 5.1 plus your choice of Front Height or Surround Back depending on surround mode.
post #6879 of 7685
My denon has been in for repair since before christmass!!!
post #6880 of 7685
Hi guys I was wondering if their is a way to bi-amp the center channel from the internal amps.
post #6881 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Pretend you never spoke with that guy, just wipe his advice from your memory because it's wrong. So many things he said are wrong.

So this actually proves my point in the uselessness/lazyness of the official Denon online customer support staff that points you to talk to people who have no idea what they're talking about, instead of answering the questions you've asked them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1. It doesn't matter which you connect to the lows vs. the highs because there is no active crossover inside the receiver splitting the signal into high/low components; rather, each set of amps set for bi-amping is producing a simple duplicate, full range signal. The passive crossover inside the speaker is going to do the work of filtering out the relevant frequencies (another reason why it's sort of pointless)

You say that the "passive crossover inside the speaker is going to do the work of filtering out the relevant frequencies", however in the speaker's manual it is stated that in Bi-Amp mode the passive crossover for the low/high frequencies is not used at all - it is hardwarely disabled/skipped when you remove the metallic plate that connects the knobs you connect the cables to. So I assume this will have to have "some" improvement in the quality, however small it could be.

Thank you very much for your extensive explanation. I'll try putting it to practice as soon as the shop I get cables from opens on Monday.
post #6882 of 7685
Isn't the 150 watts per channel the Denon has built in enough? What does the addition of an external Amp provide?
post #6883 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguyjake View Post

Isn't the 150 watts per channel the Denon has built in enough? What does the addition of an external Amp provide?
Thats the total combined MAX power in a perfect scenario. Real world output is less than 20 watts a channel. Realistically though, its enough for 99% of speakers and situations. Speakers need power not just for volume, but to control the drivers. Problems arise when the amplifier (built-in or external) runs out of headroom and strains the speakers. Amplifiers provide headroom to adequately control the drivers in the speakers.
post #6884 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post


Thats the total combined MAX power in a perfect scenario. Real world output is less than 20 watts a channel.

 

20 WPC?  :eek:  Do you have a link to the review that provided that measurement?  Seems a bit low to me.

post #6885 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

20 WPC?  eek.gif   Do you have a link to the review that provided that measurement?  Seems a bit low to me.
I'm fairly certain I estimated high. I'll see if I can find a link. Realistically, 1 watt puts out a lot of sound.

Remember that the 'official' rating is at 2 channel...and since I am using all 9 channels, I am certain it's less than 20 WPC.

'Watts' are over-rated. I can get a 1200 Watt Sony Xplode car amp for $50. rolleyes.gif
Edited by Dreamliner - 1/31/14 at 3:42pm
post #6886 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by wysiwygbg View Post


You say that the "passive crossover inside the speaker is going to do the work of filtering out the relevant frequencies", however in the speaker's manual it is stated that in Bi-Amp mode the passive crossover for the low/high frequencies is not used at all - it is hardwarely disabled/skipped when you remove the metallic plate that connects the knobs you connect the cables to.

 

I am trying to picture in my mind the internal circuitry of the speaker that would take the passive crossover out of the loop by simply removing the jumper straps between the binding posts.  Does the user's manual have a circuit schematic that you could share with us?  What make/model speakers are these?

post #6887 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post


I'm fairly certain I estimated high. I'll see if I can find a link. Realistically, 1 watt puts out a lot of sound.

'Watts' are over-rated. I can get a 1200 Watt Sony Xplode car amp for $50. rolleyes.gif

Remember that the 'official' rating is at 2 channel...and since I am using all 9 channels, I am certain it's less than 20 WPC.

 

I don't disagree with either of your statements.  I'm just asking where you saw documented measurements that the 4520 delivers only 20WPC driving a 9-channel system.

post #6888 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

20 WPC?  eek.gif   Do you have a link to the review that provided that measurement?  Seems a bit low to me.

Don't forget to add speaker sensitivity to the equation, please. The higher the sensitivity of the speaker the lower power you need for the same SPL at a given MLP distance, right? With a 105 dB Klipsch speaker you only need 13 Watts to reach 105 dB SLP at a MLP at 12 ft.

Good ref. material here and here.
post #6889 of 7685
Thread Starter 
Dreamliner -- are you sure you're not conflating what you USE (which is often much, much less than maximum power potential) with what the receiver is CAPABLE of outputting?

Many reliable bench tests show top receivers capable of easily exceeding 100W/ch of clean output, per channel, with 5 or 7 channels driven. For example: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4310ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
post #6890 of 7685
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

20 WPC?  eek.gif   Do you have a link to the review that provided that measurement?  Seems a bit low to me.

Don't forget to add speaker sensitivity to the equation, please. The higher the sensitivity of the speaker the lower power you need for the same SPL at a given MLP distance, right? With a 105 dB Klipsch speaker you only need 13 Watts to reach 105 dB SLP at a MLP at 12 ft.

Good ref. material here and here.

Again, there is a conflation of what you actually NEED/USE with what the receiver is CAPABLE of producing. They aren't the same thing, and speaker sensitivity is irrelevant to the latter (which is what I thought we were discussing).
post #6891 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Dreamliner -- are you sure you're not conflating what you USE (which is often much, much less than maximum power potential) with what the receiver is CAPABLE of outputting?

Many reliable bench tests show top receivers capable of easily exceeding 100W/ch of clean output, per channel, with 5 or 7 channels driven. For example: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4310ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Oh, right. Duh. Yeah, you are right. Of course I will yield to the Grandmaster. tongue.gif

I remember seeing that and wondering why I'd ever buy an amplifier if even at peak levels I wasn't using even 10% of the 4520 output. Thinking that perhaps the addition of an Emotiva or similar would be a perception improvement only.
post #6892 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I am trying to picture in my mind the internal circuitry of the speaker that would take the passive crossover out of the loop by simply removing the jumper straps between the binding posts.  Does the user's manual have a circuit schematic that you could share with us?  What make/model speakers are these?

JBL TL260, and here's the manual: http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/jbl/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/TechnicalSheet/TLR260%20L_R%20ts.pdf
post #6893 of 7685
I'm running all Klipsch reference speakers. Do I need an emotiva amp? Now y'all got me scared! lol I bought this 4520ci because of it's rated per channel output. If I added an external amp, would I notice a difference? I did notice a huge difference going from dolby 5.1 to dts-hd.

This 4520ci replaced a failing 4308ci and I immediately noticed a huge improvement.
post #6894 of 7685
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Dreamliner -- are you sure you're not conflating what you USE (which is often much, much less than maximum power potential) with what the receiver is CAPABLE of outputting?

Many reliable bench tests show top receivers capable of easily exceeding 100W/ch of clean output, per channel, with 5 or 7 channels driven. For example: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4310ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Oh, right. Duh. Yeah, you are right. Of course I will yield to the Grandmaster. tongue.gif

I remember seeing that and wondering why I'd ever buy an amplifier if even at peak levels I wasn't using even 10% of the 4520 output. Thinking that perhaps the addition of an Emotiva or similar would be a perception improvement only.

In terms of what you NEED, it's obviously a combination of factors like distance, room gain, and especially speaker sensitivity and desired volume levels.

If you desire to approach reference levels in a moderately sized room, and don't have super efficient speakers, then you probably do need external amplification to have enough oomph for the dynamic peaks. If you never go above -10dB, and have a smaller room and/or sensitive speakers, then it's likely unneccessary. If you have uber sensitive speakers like Klipsch with 98dB+ sensitivity ratings, then you likely can go full reference with the internal amps without breaking a sweat.

But power demands are logarithmic of course, and the problem with exponential growth is that you can go from being totally fine to be being totally not fine very quickly as you approach reference levels.
post #6895 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

In terms of what you NEED, it's obviously a combination of factors like distance, room gain, and especially speaker sensitivity and desired volume levels.

If you desire to approach reference levels in a moderately sized room, and don't have super efficient speakers, then you probably do need external amplification to have enough oomph for the dynamic peaks. If you never go above -10dB, and have a smaller room and/or sensitive speakers, then it's likely unneccessary. If you have uber sensitive speakers like Klipsch with 98dB+ sensitivity ratings, then you likely can go full reference with the internal amps without breaking a sweat.

But power demands are logarithmic of course, and the problem with exponential growth is that you can go from being totally fine to be being totally not fine very quickly as you approach reference levels.
I'm still rockin' my Boston Acoustics VR3 mains, VR2 wides (93dB sensitivity) and my VR12 center (91dB sensitivity) which I personally like the sound quite a bit. Plus a bunch of CR77 surrounds (89dB sensitivity). I watch most movies at -14 to -6 db with Audyssey calibration and 11.2. cool.gif

I used to LOVE Klipsch. I still have their 5.1 Promedia set for my PC, but I quickly got fatigued by the harshness of the tweeters. It will take a lot to convince me to buy another speaker with an aluminum tweeter.
Edited by Dreamliner - 1/31/14 at 4:45pm
post #6896 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

I'm fairly certain I estimated high. I'll see if I can find a link. Realistically, 1 watt puts out a lot of sound.

Remember that the 'official' rating is at 2 channel...and since I am using all 9 channels, I am certain it's less than 20 WPC.

'Watts' are over-rated. I can get a 1200 Watt Sony Xplode car amp for $50. rolleyes.gif

From what I recall reading while researching for buying purposes, all channels driven, the 4520 has an output of 125wpc and is 8/6/4ohm switchable.

This is the only full review I have a link for.

This comment at the bottom of the review, piqued my interest:

" I initially intended on reviewing it and then selling it, but instead I have already sold my Onkyo 5508, XPA-3 amp and XPA-1 monoblocks. I keep thinking to myself that the 4520 seems to be a little on the pricey side, but if you consider what any other processor with the same features would cost you and then add the expense of amplification, the 4520 price actually sounds like a bargain. I think the most surprising part of my experience with the 4520 has been its ability to drive my MartinLogan speakers effortlessly. I had almost given up on ever trying receiver power because I have always read and heard that the Prodigy’s pretty much needed at least 300 watts of good clean power to perform their best. I will have to disagree with the naysayers, as I find it hard to get any better than what it is right now with the 4520 the only power amp source in my system. Excellent job Denon!"

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/31/14 at 5:47pm
post #6897 of 7685
I will say I have been very happy with the 4520, although I didn't notice a AQ difference from my 4311ci, I did enjoy NEO:X and 11.2
post #6898 of 7685
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

In terms of what you NEED, it's obviously a combination of factors like distance, room gain, and especially speaker sensitivity and desired volume levels.

If you desire to approach reference levels in a moderately sized room, and don't have super efficient speakers, then you probably do need external amplification to have enough oomph for the dynamic peaks. If you never go above -10dB, and have a smaller room and/or sensitive speakers, then it's likely unneccessary. If you have uber sensitive speakers like Klipsch with 98dB+ sensitivity ratings, then you likely can go full reference with the internal amps without breaking a sweat.

But power demands are logarithmic of course, and the problem with exponential growth is that you can go from being totally fine to be being totally not fine very quickly as you approach reference levels.

BP, all your comments are correct but "need" just isn't much fun. "Want" is far more enjoyable. Also, I have just moderately efficient speakers (at best) and I do listen to reference and near reference stuff. My old 4311 was awesome but having external high current amps did sound better than what I could coax out of the 4311; especially when asked to drive my front B&W 803S's near reference and crossed over at either 40 or 60Hz. Actually, the center HTM3S never sounded as good driven by the 4311 as an external 200WPC 8 ohm monoblock amp. That center is simply difficult to drive at reference. I believe since it is sealed as opposed to ported and a smaller driver set than the Left Right. Add the task of driving 9 speakers and although it was decent the external amps were noticeably better at driving close to reference. With speakers with efficiency les than 88 db/1W/1M, I recommend a three channel external high current/high power amp to drive the mains. Of course crazy efficient Klipsch's do not need nor even fall in the "want" category. Spend your money elsewhere first.
post #6899 of 7685
Thread Starter 
I just report the facts ma'am wink.gif do with it what you wish! I certainly don't begrudge anyone spending more for "wants" over "needs". I just want people to make informed decisions.
post #6900 of 7685
I've never updated the firmware on my 4520. It is on 3335-5703-3453

Should I upgrade? Also how come I cannot enable the "2ch Playback" option?
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