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Audiophilia Newbie Looking to Expand System - Page 5

post #121 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronKatz View Post


No, but again you can't compare it. It's not "Predicting" If you actually saw the horse drink. Why does it have to be "Guessing" or "Reading minds"? If the person says he heard a difference or can pinpoint differences then why can we not believe it? Statistically 50% say they heard a difference and even pinpointed them. This cannot by any logical means disqualify it as guessing, unless we "Assume" that they were guessing simply based on the fact that it was 50% of the people. Why can't those 50% have more trained ears or have better hearing? Or is that IMPOSSIBLE? It seems more possible and logical than "Assuming" that they were all just guessing and not one of them could have heard a difference. Or maybe you all believe that it's impossible so strongly that you refuse to believe that it could be possible? It could be that they were all guessing, and not a single one of them really actually heard a difference, but we cannot prove that, just like we cannot disprove the possibility that some of those 50% actually heard a difference. No statistical assumption in the world will be able to prove what the people actually heard, that's not hard science, that's assumption based on statistics. It's not the same as using statistics for "Counting facts" for example that 50% of the population of a certain state is male and 50% is female, those can be facts based on a census for example or 50% vote democrat while 50% vote for republican, well if they voted for that it means they did... and it's still 50/50, it doesn't mean that 50% of them guessed... and we can't assume they just made random guesses on who to vote for, some of them obviously believed in that parties ideology, just like some could have heard it, but we will never know the true percentage...

Enuff talking about 'maybe this, maybe that, whatever I need to defend a position I have not personally tested'.....howzabout YOU test these things, then YOU will be able to tell us how YOU went with these differences instead of this inane incessant speculation about how someone else may have gone or not gone on any given day depending on the solar cycle when conflated with the quantum spin that varies according to the mayan calendar (yet taking into account the gregorian calendar when transpose to the assyrian) and the latest results of the hubble deep space shots.

Let us know how your ears went and whether you were guessing or not.
post #122 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry j View Post

Enuff talking about 'maybe this, maybe that, whatever I need to defend a position I have not personally tested'.....howzabout YOU test these things, then YOU will be able to tell us how YOU went with these differences instead of this inane incessant speculation about how someone else may have gone or not gone on any given day depending on the solar cycle when conflated with the quantum spin that varies according to the mayan calendar (yet taking into account the gregorian calendar when transpose to the assyrian) and the latest results of the hubble deep space shots.
Let us know how your ears went and whether you were guessing or not.

Yes that would be good. Maybe one day when I have the right setup I will. No need for the harshness and rudeness though that I have experienced on this forum and haven't on others that I have posted in. Your opinions seem to be as strong as mine and we must agree to disagree as we have different viewpoints on what is considered logical. I don't feel comfortable being constantly put down and criticized though and this hasn't helped your position. I haven't done this to you and don't deserve this kind of ill treatment.

I think you are right in saying that it doesn't matter what other people have said because what matters is how it sounds to YOU and whether YOU think it makes a difference. If it sounds different or better to you, or if you can't tell the difference that's all that matters. However, I am sure if I posted that it did sound better after my test, then people would just criticize me for having a placebo effect and if I did it blindfolded, then people would make up some other statistical excuse, etc... People here just don't want to believe that it's possible and will still criticize me...
post #123 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronKatz View Post

Yes that would be good. Maybe one day when I have the right setup I will. No need for the harshness and rudeness though that I have experienced on this forum and haven't on others that I have posted in. Your opinions seem to be as strong as mine and we must agree to disagree as we have different viewpoints on what is considered logical. I don't feel comfortable being constantly put down and criticized though and this hasn't helped your position. I haven't done this to you and don't deserve this kind of ill treatment.
I think you are right in saying that it doesn't matter what other people have said because what matters is how it sounds to YOU and whether YOU think it makes a difference. If it sounds different or better to you, or if you can't tell the difference that's all that matters. However, I am sure if I posted that it did sound better after my test, then people would just criticize me for having a placebo effect and if I did it blindfolded, then people would make up some other statistical excuse, etc... People here just don't want to believe that it's possible and will still criticize me...
Is someone forcing you to stay here? There are many other forums out there for you to choose from.
post #124 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronKatz View Post

Yes that would be good. Maybe one day when I have the right setup I will.

That would be of 'infinite' value to you. I hope for the sake of satisfying your own curiosity that you do it.

It would however, require finding out how to do the test properly..I hope at least theoretically you'd agree there is no point in doing it otherwise..but for some strange reason I feel we'd be still hitting up against your entrenched ideas on what controls are required and you'd still be fighting us all the way with 'well, how do you know accurate level matching is required?' et al. You see, everything isa 'built upon everything else' and I don't have the confidence you would be able to start from first principles and re-do all the research of the decades. Yet you'd probably fight all that pre-existing knowledge anyway.
Quote:
No need for the harshness and rudeness though that I have experienced on this forum and haven't on others that I have posted in. Your opinions seem to be as strong as mine and we must agree to disagree as we have different viewpoints on what is considered logical. I don't feel comfortable being constantly put down and criticized though and this hasn't helped your position. I haven't done this to you and don't deserve this kind of ill treatment.

Ok, I get your feeling of persecution and belittlement. You DON'T get that on thease un named 'other forums' because they too believe in the supreme reliability of their own perceptions and like you also deny any and all research that contradicts their unexamined conclusions. If you want to stop and ponder for even a millisecond, you'd see that it has nothing to do with relative politeness of these opposing forums...we would, and do, get the same reaction from them when we try and explain the science of these things. So it has nothing to do with the differing levels of politeness (they are a happier and more accepting bunch than we are). To think that would I am afraid be an indicator of either naivety or poor reasoning skills.
Quote:
I think you are right in saying that it doesn't matter what other people have said because what matters is how it sounds to YOU and whether YOU think it makes a difference. If it sounds different or better to you, or if you can't tell the difference that's all that matters. However, I am sure if I posted that it did sound better after my test, then people would just criticize me for having a placebo effect and if I did it blindfolded, then people would make up some other statistical excuse, etc... People here just don't want to believe that it's possible and will still criticize me...

Would there be some here who would NEVER accept findings contrary to their beliefs? You can bet your life on it. However, as far fetched as it may seem, there are a goodly proportion who would be fascinated by a successful result on your part, for reasons you may have already gleaned (it would be a first for one, that alone would be fascinating no?).

Would we examine your test procedure? Without a doubt and rightly so. I mean we would not just simply accept a new value for the acceleration due to gravity from a first grade science class without verifying their test protocols would we. Same deal here.

So please, do the tests, report back and you will have the makings of a very interesting and active (I can assure you of that!) thread.
post #125 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronKatz View Post

Does my age matter that much. I'm 28... Are you Ageist?
No, but again you can't compare it. It's not "Predicting" If you actually saw the horse drink. ...

Perhaps you misunderstand how double blind tests work. In a double blind test, somebody will actually know if the horse drank (or if device in trial A is the same as or different from the device in trial B). The question is not whether the subject got the right answer because he was right. It's whether he got the right answer. Then you take all the data for all the tests and crunch it statistically to see if the person was more correct than random guessing would suggest, within whatever degree of certainty you chose for your test. If you want me to predict my horse drinking with my back to the water, I'll gladly do so. I'll even trust you to tell me whether the particular horse actually took a drink. But if I'm only 50% I'd still expect a rational person to believe I cannot read horses' minds.

Similarly in a drug testing situation, some people who take the placebo have reduced pain, or other improvements being targeted. Now if significantly more folks taking the nonplacebo achieve good results, you can begin to determine that the nonplacebo is effective. But you also know that some of the nonplacebo foks likely would have reported an improvement even with the placebo. What this test does not do is determine which individuals had a better result than they would have with the placebo. To "prove" that patient A does not respond to the placebo would require an entirely different set of tests . . . and has a fair chance of coming up with null results.

BTW, the notion that something is utterly unprovable therefore it must be true enters the realm of faith, not science, and I'm pretty sure that CS Lewis would argue that greater itellectual rigor is appropriate in matters of faith, too.
post #126 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronKatz View Post

Yes that would be good. Maybe one day when I have the right setup I will. No need for the harshness and rudeness though that I have experienced on this forum and haven't on others that I have posted in. Your opinions seem to be as strong as mine and we must agree to disagree as we have different viewpoints on what is considered logical.

Believe it or not, there are vast areas of human knowledge, even audio knowledge where individual opinions and personal logic don't matter at all to anybody with an ounce of sense. A big part of this area is called Science.

Much of audio technology is well-understood scientifically speaking, and covered by reliable information, theories, calculations, experiments, and etc.

Your OP and following commentary appears to be free of evidence of knowledge of any reliable information, theories, calculations, experiments, and etc that relate to its topic.
Quote:
I don't feel comfortable being constantly put down and criticized though

You seem to be confusing correction with criticism. There is a difference!
Quote:
I haven't done this to you and don't deserve this kind of ill treatment.

One way to avoid being corrected over and over again is to actually know a little something about what you are talking about. ;-)
Quote:
I think you are right in saying that it doesn't matter what other people have said because what matters is how it sounds to YOU and whether YOU think it makes a difference. If it sounds different or better to you, or if you can't tell the difference that's all that matters.

Science sheds far more light on this topic. Many of the things relating to your OP are well enough understood that it can be reliably and credibly stated that nobody can reliably tell the difference, and if they think they have they have they are simply in error.

For example, lets say that you think you have run a mile in 10 seconds. Is there any possibility that you have actually done so? Imagine going into a neighborhood drinking establishment and claiming that you can, at will, run a mile in 10 seconds. What would the other people there make of such a claim?

Many of the claims in your OP are comparable to you claiming to have run a mile in 10 seconds.

Really!
post #127 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Similarly in a drug testing situation, some people who take the placebo have reduced pain, or other improvements being targeted. Now if significantly more folks taking the nonplacebo achieve good results, you can begin to determine that the nonplacebo is effective. But you also know that some of the nonplacebo foks likely would have reported an improvement even with the placebo. What this test does not do is determine which individuals had a better result than they would have with the placebo. To "prove" that patient A does not respond to the placebo would require an entirely different set of tests . . . and has a fair chance of coming up with null results.

Yes but there is no Placebo effect with a blind test is my point. If it's a true blind test that is! The point is that you don't know which is which, if you could see which was playing then you might have a placebo effect thinking it sounds better not because it does but because you think it does...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

BTW, the notion that something is utterly unprovable therefore it must be true enters the realm of faith, not science, and I'm pretty sure that CS Lewis would argue that greater itellectual rigor is appropriate in matters of faith, too.

Ok, but it's not the same with this. There are many scientific "specs" such as a higher dynamic range, different format, etc... that would make it sound different or better, possibly. However, as many have stated here that difference may not be audible to most if not all people. I think that is different than basing something on faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Many of the claims in your OP are comparable to you claiming to have run a mile in 10 seconds.
Really!

Except that hardly anyone in the world would believe that someone could run a mile in 10 seconds yet many many people still believe that SACD sounds better or different than CD, that tubes sound better than transistors, etc...

BTW, for all those that said there isn't an HDMI cable that's built in the USA: http://www.musicdirect.com/p-103439-nordost-blue-heaven-hdmi-cable.aspx this is completely made in the US and terminated here. Yes it's expensive but from what I've heard HDMI cables are some of the most expensive and difficult to hand solder and build so labour alone is worth the price of the cable compared to a $100 monster cable that's made in China.
post #128 of 134
^^^

i guess whatever other forum(s) you've been trolling for the last couple weeks have gotten bored with you, so you came back...

350 clams for a 1 meter hdmi cable... rolleyes.gif for that price, kate beckinsale better come deliver it personally and install it... and provide other, ummm, "services" as well...
post #129 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
i guess whatever other forum(s) you've been trolling for the last couple weeks have gotten bored with you, so you came back...
350 clams for a 1 meter hdmi cable... rolleyes.gif for that price, kate beckinsale better come deliver it personally and install it... and provide other, ummm, "services" as well...

I haven't been trolling any forums. As I mentioned, it's going to cost more than a monoprice one because it's made in the USA. Especially since they are the only ones making HDMI cables in the USA. If they were an automated mass-production company making them in the USA the price might be closer to $50-$100 range. I respect them more than anyone for what they are doing, the tooling isn't cheap and neither is the labour and they won't sell a lot of them, or make as much money as say Monster Cable but I respect them for making it here and not outsourcing! Obviously that's going to bring the price of the cable up, especially if they don't have competition!
post #130 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
i guess whatever other forum(s) you've been trolling for the last couple weeks have gotten bored with you, so you came back...
350 clams for a 1 meter hdmi cable... rolleyes.gif for that price, kate beckinsale better come deliver it personally and install it... and provide other, ummm, "services" as well...

I haven't been trolling any forums. As I mentioned, it's going to cost more than a monoprice one because it's made in the USA. Especially since they are the only ones making HDMI cables in the USA. If they were an automated mass-production company making them in the USA the price might be closer to $50-$100 range. I respect them more than anyone for what they are doing, the tooling isn't cheap and neither is the labour and they won't sell a lot of them, or make as much money as say Monster Cable but I respect them for making it here and not outsourcing! Obviously that's going to bring the price of the cable up, especially if they don't have competition!
post #131 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
i guess whatever other forum(s) you've been trolling for the last couple weeks have gotten bored with you, so you came back...
350 clams for a 1 meter hdmi cable... rolleyes.gif for that price, kate beckinsale better come deliver it personally and install it... and provide other, ummm, "services" as well...

I haven't been trolling any forums. As I mentioned, it's going to cost more than a monoprice one because it's made in the USA. Especially since they are the only ones making HDMI cables in the USA. If they were an automated mass-production company making them in the USA the price might be closer to $50-$100 range. I respect them more than anyone for what they are doing, the tooling isn't cheap and neither is the labour and they won't sell a lot of them, or make as much money as say Monster Cable but I respect them for making it here and not outsourcing! Obviously that's going to bring the price of the cable up, especially if they don't have competition!
post #132 of 134
^^^

lol... re-read your last sentence again... talk about contradictions....

go on "believing" what you like...
post #133 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronKatz View Post

I haven't been trolling any forums. As I mentioned, it's going to cost more than a monoprice one because it's made in the USA. Especially since they are the only ones making HDMI cables in the USA. If they were an automated mass-production company making them in the USA the price might be closer to $50-$100 range. I respect them more than anyone for what they are doing, the tooling isn't cheap and neither is the labour and they won't sell a lot of them, or make as much money as say Monster Cable but I respect them for making it here and not outsourcing! Obviously that's going to bring the price of the cable up, especially if they don't have competition!
So I am just curious about this non-USA stuff. Do you use a computer? I assume you do. How do you find one built in USA? Do you have iPhone? Nikes?
post #134 of 134
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

So I am just curious about this non-USA stuff. Do you use a computer? I assume you do. How do you find one built in USA? Do you have iPhone? Nikes?

My laptop is made in Germany (even the motherboard/FSB was made there) and my other laptop was made in Japan. My next laptop will be a Sony Vaio Z, which is also made in Japan, again the motherboard/FSB is made in Japan for that and so is the LED screen.

My phone is made in Finland and my Sneakers are all made in Italy. So yes you can avoid buying stuff that's made in China or outsourced to other developing countries if you really want to. It's not that hard, and actually makes choosing things much easier for me.
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