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Offical JVC DLA-RS4810 Owners Thread - Page 24

post #691 of 1794
Congrats Jamsys. smile.gif Now get it set up and clock some hours on it as the lamps can drift quite a bit in the first 100 hours, so you don't want a calibration done before the lamp has settled (unless the calibrator lives nearby and will pop back to retouch it).
post #692 of 1794
Getting my X55 professionally calibrated after hearing what others have been saying about the benefits and blown away results (not just JVC projectors). Coming in at just under 5 bills, I'm curious to see how my eye measures up to all the proper gear and what's supposed to be a 'properly calibrated image'. Right now I have an image, after weeks of fiddling, that I'm happy with and loving my skin tones.

I hope I don't like my settings better than the calibrators.

Anyone else get their X55/4810 professionally calibrated? How happy were you with the result? How happy were you with your own calibrated image and how much better (if it was) was the calibrated image compared to your own?
post #693 of 1794
just calibrating greyscale and gamma alone can make a huge difference. Different JVC's seem to track gamma different than others, so you can't trust the default settings of 2.2, 2.3, etc.

Don't you have multiple projectors? for that much $$ you can get the calibration kit and tweak the settings yourself.
post #694 of 1794
Your questions can not be answered as asked. Many here now have their own color probes and calibration programs and do professional level calibrations themselves. While there are several world class professional calibrators out there, many including many certified by ISF are not great calibrators.


Calibration means measurement against and adjusting to standards. The most any professional calibrator could do better than a non professional calibrator following correct procedures would be to use a slightly more accurate probe. Calibrators tend to leave you with graphs showing dramatically how much closer the the standards your display is after calibration. In reality, present consumer level meters used correctly will get you within the limits of human discernability of color errors.


That said. It is quite possible you will like a image better that doesn't not meet all the standards just like in audio soneone likes to turn up the bassand treble controls beyond where they should be to mimic the sound recorded..
Edited by mark haflich - 1/6/13 at 9:55am
post #695 of 1794
I thinking of getting the same setup you have Zombie (Lumagen mini, Chrampure etc.) but will have to wait till the summer of '14 to get it. So in the mean time I thought I would give this a try. I was reading how much you liked the autocal on the projectors you've been testing and based on your thoughts....well, I'm gonna give a calibration a go. Mike who is doing the calibration comes highly recommended so I hope I like the results. Here's where I found him http://canadahifi.com/forum/showthread.php?275-THX-ISF-Video-Calibrator-Introduction
post #696 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I thinking of getting the same setup you have Zombie (Lumagen mini, Chrampure etc.) but will have to wait till the summer of '14 to get it. So in the mean time I thought I would give this a try. I was reading how much you liked the autocal on the projectors you've been testing and based on your thoughts....well, I'm gonna give a calibration a go. Mike who is doing the calibration comes highly recommended so I hope I like the results. Here's where I found him http://canadahifi.com/forum/showthread.php?275-THX-ISF-Video-Calibrator-Introduction

you don't need the autocal/mini 3D to get started, the basic kit is about the same price as the calibration from the pro. Since the projectors will drift as the lamp ages, it makes it easy to touch up the calibration every so often.

his credentials look good, let us know how it looks afterwards.
post #697 of 1794
I finally mounted 4810 on the ceiling. its about 16.25 inches from the wall. I had plans to get a 120" Diagonal screen.

Right of the bat family says 120 inch is too small frown.gif

I can take the projector back about another 4 ft. we are looking at 150" Diagonal now ( 130.0" Wide )

Any thoughts?

(I would be probably looking for a manual screen since I have to deal with some other aspects and unable install a fixed frame on the wall.)

Edit

After watching avatar for 30 minutes on larger size (150 D) everybody experienced some giddiness. We reduced the size to 104 inch wide (120 D) and viewing experience was lot better.
Edited by dchandwani - 1/6/13 at 6:45pm
post #698 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Getting my X55 professionally calibrated after hearing what others have been saying about the benefits and blown away results (not just JVC projectors). Coming in at just under 5 bills, I'm curious to see how my eye measures up to all the proper gear and what's supposed to be a 'properly calibrated image'. Right now I have an image, after weeks of fiddling, that I'm happy with and loving my skin tones.
I hope I don't like my settings better than the calibrators.
Anyone else get their X55/4810 professionally calibrated? How happy were you with the result? How happy were you with your own calibrated image and how much better (if it was) was the calibrated image compared to your own?

I thought my 4810 looked really good out of the box as well. Forget what setting. Think it was User 1, Standard profile. I was coming from a calibrated RS50. The professional, a member here.... Gotcha.... even remarked how good it looked out of the box....one of best JVCs he has ever seen in that regard, currently owning an RS55 himself.

Well sheeeooooot!!! When he was done, it was no comparison. Much finer image, no question about it. Colors are dead on gorgeous and better shadow detail. I think he wound up with my gamma at 2.35 or so. Lost hardly any brightness as well, if any at the time. Don't ask me specifics though. He will be able to start posting here again following C.E.S. Some agreement he had to abide by to avoid a conflict for just a set period of time.
post #699 of 1794
RS 48 just showed up, got a great deal..... finding a mount was not easy.... now waiting for my calibration, next Friday!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Congrats Jamsys. smile.gif Now get it set up and clock some hours on it as the lamps can drift quite a bit in the first 100 hours, so you don't want a calibration done before the lamp has settled (unless the calibrator lives nearby and will pop back to retouch it).

Going to be hard to clock that mamy hours as he comes friday smile.gif

Set it up just temp, and wow.... didnt touch a setting and it is beyond words...
post #700 of 1794
Well with respect then the calibration is a little premature: The lamp will drift most in the first 100 hours, though granted my own X35 seems to have been very stable in terms of light output, the colour temp may have drifted (I plan another calibration soon as I'm approaching 100 hours, but have my own equipment). If you get it done at say 30 hours, then by 100 hours the colour temp will have changed and it won't be a calibrated image that you're watching. Of course projectors carry on drifting after this time (another reason why I have my own equipment) but it slows down, so any further change is more gradual. You are also more likely to get a failure in the first few hours, so best to get some hours on to make sure that there aren't any early failure/niggles.

A good Pro should explain this (or will come back and retouch as part of the job).
post #701 of 1794
What equip are you using? I think i will just let her run overnight for the next few nights.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Well with respect then the calibration is a little premature: The lamp will drift most in the first 100 hours, though granted my own X35 seems to have been very stable in terms of light output, the colour temp may have drifted (I plan another calibration soon as I'm approaching 100 hours, but have my own equipment). If you get it done at say 30 hours, then by 100 hours the colour temp will have changed and it won't be a calibrated image that you're watching. Of course projectors carry on drifting after this time (another reason why I have my own equipment) but it slows down, so any further change is more gradual. You are also more likely to get a failure in the first few hours, so best to get some hours on to make sure that there aren't any early failure/niggles.
A good Pro should explain this (or will come back and retouch as part of the job).
post #702 of 1794
I'm using the new i1 display Pro (enhanced) along with Chromapure Pro. I have a Lumagen Mini3D so I'm now doing the automatic 125 point calibration (hence why I didn't need to spend the extra on the X55 as I didn't need the CMS).

I have to say that the basic setup I did for the first few evenings looked and measured pretty good anyway (Standard colour space, everything else at 0, HDMI superwhite, 6500K colour temp and custom gamma 2.3).
post #703 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

(hence why I didn't need to spend the extra on the X55 as I didn't need the CMS)
eshift2 is pretty awesome though! smile.gif Actually, I'm pretty shocked by how well it works -- and I love the option of the 121-point zone convergence. But yeah, if I had a Lumagen I'd probably have kept my RS46.
post #704 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamsys View Post

What equip are you using? I think i will just let her run overnight for the next few nights.....

I was running mine around 12-14 hours a day in a similar situation to get some hours on it before a person came to calibrate it. He said that was fine but mentioned it was not good to run them around the clock, just to make you aware in case you were thinking of doing that. Didn't say what was bad about it.
post #705 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

eshift2 is pretty awesome though! smile.gif Actually, I'm pretty shocked by how well it works -- and I love the option of the 121-point zone convergence. But yeah, if I had a Lumagen I'd probably have kept my RS46.

I realise this is the X55/RS48/RS4810 owners club so I'll tread carefully wink.gif, but I would say that for me I didn't feel that the ability not to see the pixels when close up to the screen was a major factor. Likewise I thought that the EShift sharpening effect was similar enough to Darbee to my eyes (something I only use in small amounts now anyway). However, in the UK it's double the price of the X35, so it's an easier decision if you already own a Lumagen (and a Darbee).

The 121 point convergence wouldn't get used anyway in my case since it is scaling the image just to make a nose to the screen test pattern look better at the expense of lowering resolution. Now if the X55 had extra contrast over the X35 then I would likely have gone for it, but that model is the X75 and in the UK is 3x the price, so right off the list...
post #706 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

The 121 point convergence wouldn't get used anyway in my case since it is scaling the image just to make a nose to the screen test pattern look better at the expense of lowering resolution.
I see people say this all the time but as closely as I've looked I can't see any instance of it reducing resolution. I can pause my BD player on extremely sharp, crisp, clear video and compare the image with and without the convergence function engaged and there's no perceivable difference.

I suspect that the loss of detail that the fine convergence introduces is probably about the same level as the loss of detail that the inherent misconvergence causes...which is to say the effects of both on overall detail are pretty negligible. But I like having a well-converged image even if it's reducing image detail in a way that's completely invisible to me. Maybe the sharpness and detail enhancement of eshift2 masks the negative affects of the fine convergence adjustment (although I've performed my before/after tests with MPC off and still notice no detail reduction)?

I don't know...it's not worth debating I guess. I find the convergence feature useful and I've personally never witnessed any negative effects from its use although I know there are some who feel strongly otherwise.
post #707 of 1794
It's very hard to see no doubt if it is there, some people have reported extra motion issues in some test patterns (not sure which tests to run), try the motion patterns from Spears and Munsil test disk maybe.
post #708 of 1794
Yeah Schwa, you can't be happy with sub pixel convergence adjustments. Look harder! Try to find something wrong with it.
post #709 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It's very hard to see no doubt if it is there, some people have reported extra motion issues in some test patterns (not sure which tests to run), try the motion patterns from Spears and Munsil test disk maybe.
I can find issues if I use test patterns (some color shift on single pixel resolution patterns). But I can also spot issues from the inherent misconvergence if I use test patterns. And eshift freaks out on some test patterns too. My point is that drawbacks to sub-pixel adjustments are next to invisible on real-world video, as are the deleterious effects of eshift2 and maybe even minor Inherent misconvergence.
post #710 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

Yeah Schwa, you can't be happy with sub pixel convergence adjustments. Look harder! Try to find something wrong with it.
No kidding! The forum doesn't help my OCD at all.
post #711 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

I see people say this all the time but as closely as I've looked I can't see any instance of it reducing resolution. I can pause my BD player on extremely sharp, crisp, clear video and compare the image with and without the convergence function engaged and there's no perceivable difference.
As other have stated you need to use test patterns. The AVS709 test disc has a whole pile of pixel on/off lines and grid patterns that from fine to coarse. You'll be able to see how you end up with moiré type patterns from using zone/point convergence. It will happen, there's no way around it with a 1920x1080 panel showing 1920x1080 resolution. Something has to give if you move shift some pixels but not all.

Whether you see these with "real world" content is debatable.

But then, whether you see the misconvergence with real world content is also debateable.

Note that this only happens with the zone (point) convergence. If you use full screen full pixel shifting (or even full screen 1/16 pixel shifting as found on the RS56 and RS66) you won't introduce issues. I've tested this on my RS56.

Kal
post #712 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by kal View Post

As other have stated you need to use test patterns. The AVS709 test disc has a whole pile of pixel on/off lines and grid patterns that from fine to coarse. You'll be able to see how you end up with moiré type patterns from using zone/point convergence. It will happen, there's no way around it with a 1920x1080 panel showing 1920x1080 resolution. Something has to give if you move shift some pixels but not all.
Whether you see these with "real world" content is debatable.
But then, whether you see the misconvergence with real world content is also debateable.
Note that this only happens with the zone (point) convergence. If you use full screen full pixel shifting (or even full screen 1/16 pixel shifting as found on the RS56 and RS66) you won't introduce issues. I've tested this on my RS56.
Kal
I've used the AVS709 disc's resolution patterns and I don't see any loss of resolution or moire but I do see some color shifting/banding. However, this only shows up on the on/off alternating resolution patterns and not in real world material. Since I don't typically sit around watching test patterns for fun I've concluded that the benefits of the fine convergence adjustments in real world material outweigh the (admittedly very infrequent) color fringing I might notice when not using the adjustments.

FWIW the RS4810 also has full screen 1/16 pixel shifting.

I suspect at least half of the "misconvergence" I'm seeing is CA anyway. I'm almost at full zoom (110" 16:9 screen with a throw of only ~12 feet) and if I zoom the image out to make it smaller I see that some of the "misconvergence" seems to disappear.
Edited by Schwa - 1/8/13 at 8:26am
post #713 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I realise this is the X55/RS48/RS4810 owners club so I'll tread carefully wink.gif, but I would say that for me I didn't feel that the ability not to see the pixels when close up to the screen was a major factor. Likewise I thought that the EShift sharpening effect was similar enough to Darbee to my eyes (something I only use in small amounts now anyway). However, in the UK it's double the price of the X35, so it's an easier decision if you already own a Lumagen (and a Darbee).
The 121 point convergence wouldn't get used anyway in my case since it is scaling the image just to make a nose to the screen test pattern look better at the expense of lowering resolution. Now if the X55 had extra contrast over the X35 then I would likely have gone for it, but that model is the X75 and in the UK is 3x the price, so right off the list...

The Eshift does work but like you said Kelvin, you have to move pretty close to the screen to appreciate it. The rest of the Eshift enhancements are a kind of contrast enhancer, like you stated, (similar to the Darbee in a way) and that's what the majority of what people are seeing when they say it's noticeable. I always told people I could see the Seymour weave at around 12 or so feet but it was actually the SDE from my Epson's. It's really amazing at how close I can get to my screen now and still see a very good picture. Pretty cool. You're not missing much (if anything at all) since you already have a Lumagen - Chromapure combo and a Darbee.
post #714 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

The Eshift does work but like you said Kelvin, you have to move pretty close to the screen to appreciate it. The rest of the Eshift enhancements are a kind of contrast enhancer, like you stated, (similar to the Darbee in a way) and that's what the majority of what people are seeing when they say it's noticeable. I always told people I could see the Seymour weave at around 12 or so feet but it was actually the SDE from my Epson's. It's really amazing at how close I can get to my screen now and still see a very good picture. Pretty cool. You're not missing much (if anything at all) since you already have a Lumagen - Chromapure combo and a Darbee.
Agreed 100%.
post #715 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

The Eshift does work but like you said Kelvin, you have to move pretty close to the screen to appreciate it. The rest of the Eshift enhancements are a kind of contrast enhancer, like you stated, (similar to the Darbee in a way) and that's what the majority of what people are seeing when they say it's noticeable. I always told people I could see the Seymour weave at around 12 or so feet but it was actually the SDE from my Epson's. It's really amazing at how close I can get to my screen now and still see a very good picture. Pretty cool. You're not missing much (if anything at all) since you already have a Lumagen - Chromapure combo and a Darbee.

He is probably missing 0%. But I do like the film 4k profiler tho, kind of helps with the noise from the image.
post #716 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

He is probably missing 0%. But I do like the film 4k profiler tho, kind of helps with the noise from the image.

I dunno. A forum member demo'd the Darbee with e-shift for me and e-shift added a very noticeable improvement to the Darbee's effect. I was so amazed that I may not even get a Darbee until I upgrade to an e-shift projector. I found the difference really remarkable.
post #717 of 1794
I get more of a sharpening feeling. I actually haven't watched anything without eshift but the effects resemble the Darbee to me. With having the eshift last year and this year, I could be just spoiled by eshift. It would be more obvious if the screen doesn't go black before turning it off and on again. All the other 4k modes seem like the detail enhancer from previous models and makes the image unwatchable to me
post #718 of 1794
The e-shift + darbee is an excellent combo. I think the MPC changes are more obvious than what e-shift is doing, mainly because some of the settings are more aggressive this year.

imo, there is more to the e-shift than just eliminating the pixels. Looking closer, the increase in pixel density creates a perception of increased contrast. I demonstrated this with the original e-shift. The image becomes more 'solid' and then with slight MPC sharpening, becomes about as film like as I could ask for at this price point.

Watch the The Dark Knight Rises with the MPC tuned up, darbee ~30%, it looks amazing.
post #719 of 1794
Well, back from work and glad I didn't cause an uproar on here with my earlier post. smile.gif I think if I didn't already have the Lumagen, Darbee and Isco then if might have been a different matter of course. I just wish the price difference over here was as small as for you guys. smile.gif I do know that having recently seen the Sony VW1000ES and the X55 (nearly) side by side that I know that I'll be happy to hold on to my X35 until such time as I can afford a used '1000ES or perhaps if JVC start making a true 4K model in the future.

I think the X55 wasn't looking it's best to be fair as I think the MPC settings must have bee too high as I could see very obvious ringing on some discs that I'd recently watched on my X35, so it is possible to overcook things. The X55 was using most of it's zoom as well, so the contrast didn't look as much as I'm used to at home (min zoom and min iris still gives me 15fL, I think the demo screen was bigger and lower gain than mine).
post #720 of 1794
when I was testing e-shift 1 vs eshift-2, I noticed an interesting anomaly when e-shift was engaged.

RS55 is on top, RS-4810 bottom. You can see the text looks a bit distorted vs. the RS55 w/ e-shift 1. This doesn't matter which mode is engaged, any of the MPC modes produced the same results. I am not sure what's exactly happening, but it might explain why I think the 55 looked better overall.

e-shift off (RS55 is slightly sharper, just pot luck w/ a better lens sample)

e-shift3.jpg

eshift on

e-shift4.jpg
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