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Offical JVC DLA-RS4810 Owners Thread - Page 29

post #841 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

Btw, I run i1d3pro profiled against i1 pro and they were calibrated by the manufacturer a year ago. I don't think it has no such huge errors.
I have no idea what you mean by this or if it was even directed at me. I haven't claimed to have any huge errors so maybe this comment is meant for someone else.
post #842 of 1794
Help!

Remote has stopped operating. So I put in batteries and it is communicating with the unit as the green light flasshes 2 times when I press a button and then nothing happens. Cannot turn on or off or use any remote function.

PLEASE tell me this is an easy fix as I don't feel like taking projector down from ceiling and sending in for repair!

S
post #843 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwa View Post

I have no idea what you mean by this or if it was even directed at me. I haven't claimed to have any huge errors so maybe this comment is meant for someone else.
Oh, it's not for you. sorry.
post #844 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

Do you use different color difference formulas?
CP use CIE94 while CM seems to use dE2000, Different color difference formula will result in different dE.

Btw, I run i1d3pro profiled against i1 pro and they were calibrated by the manufacturer a year ago. I don't think it has no such huge errors.

Chromapure can be set to use dE2000 if you wish in one of the options.
post #845 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Chromapure can be set to use dE2000 if you wish in one of the options.
Yeah but I prefer CIE94. I think Calman also change it to CIE94.
post #846 of 1794
SOWK, Geof, Kelvin, Mark, 5mark, etc........Thanks again guys. All these posts and info that you are putting out are a big help and I am learning a lot. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

You couldn't adjust at 1% increments unless you only wanted to adjust from 0 to 20% as the 100% and 0% can't be moved and you only have 19 points that can be moved around where you feel they would work best.

Using a Lumagen you could adjust the greyscale and gamma manually and move the 19 points where you see fit (and use the JVC's custom gamma too if you really had nothing better to do with your time), then run the autocal for the colour gamut. However, I find it's quicker to let the autocal do it all, maybe check the greyscale (make any slight tweaks if you wish) then do the colour gamut separately. Anything away from the target gamma will produce errors due to the way the cube works, but from those who have measured these errors they don't seem to be too major and we are talking about low % levels anyway, so you could argue that the gamma is more important here than absolute spot on colour temp at very low %.

While on the subject: I've seen the arguements about only aiming for 3dE, but my opinion is that it is better to aim for as low as is possible. Then any error of the sensor might still fall within limits:if only 1-2 dE meter error it might mean that the actual dE is still within 3dE if you hit near 0dE with your measurements. However, I don't spend so much time calibrating these days...I did lots and lots of experiments when I first got my old i1LT and Chromapure: I tried different gamma responses (flat and curved) and saved them in different memories. I would then pause different scenes (light, middle and dark) to try to understand which settings effected which parts of the image. Now that I know I personally prefer 2.3 that drops to 2.2 (maybe even 2.1 at 5% on my older HD350 with less contrast) then that's what I aim for...it doesn't take long these days either manually with Chromapure and the Lumagen or autocal with a few tweaks, so all the more time to watch films. cool.gif

So just to be clear, if we want to make tweaks, run the auto cal for greyscale/gamma FIRST and then do any tweaks if you wish to greyscale and/or gamma (gamma tweaks would just be to the low end ~5%, so it sounds like any errors as a result of tweaking wont have any significant impact in general, right?). Once you have any tweaks in place and are satisfied with both greyscale and gamma, then run the 125 point color calibration, correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

True but it's much much more then that.

DLP's and SXRD machines I viewed have no problem with the above scenes.

Only the JVC Line.

Even my Kuro that can not show 17/18/19 on a greyscale chart show the above shadow detail with ease.

It is something JVC is doing. Only Gamma A / gamma 1.8 / gamma 1.9 on the JVC will pull out the detail correctly. But overall Gamma A is very very low.

Very interesting. I was using Gamma A before doing my calibration to 2.22 since by eye I noticed it revealed more shadow detail vs the other gamma options I tried (I never tried 1.8 and 1.9). Of course Gamma A overall is very low as you mention which was interesting to see when I actually measured it the other day. I am looking forward to watching more material now with my 2.22 gamma to see what differences I notice in general vs what I was using (A). I wonder why the JVCs are having issues revealing shadow detail though when other displays are not, some of which have MUCH lower contrast......... confused.gif
Edited by Toe - 1/21/13 at 8:32am
post #847 of 1794
Sorry to interrupt the endless calibration discussion, but on a different topic....I am coming from an RS-20 and noticed from pics and diagrams that the geometry of the lamp assembly in the 4810 appears to be at a right angle to the former lamp design. Before, with the RS-20, et al, one could remove the lamp assembly and easily inspect and clean the back glass of the optical block for accumulated haze and film deposits. Judging from the diagrams, it looks like it would be difficult to do so on the current design. Has anyone attempted to inspect or clean the back glass on this model or perhaps on previous models with a similar lamp geometry? Routinely removing the film deposit accumulations, before, did wonders for my RS-20.
post #848 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by freebits View Post

Yeah but I prefer CIE94. I think Calman also change it to CIE94.
I don't think that's true. I've been using the very latest version of CalMAN and all of the dE charts are very clearly marked "dE2000."
post #849 of 1794
@Toe, yes I thnk you've got it. Tweak 5% after the first greyscale autocal, then continue with the 125 point colour gamut cal.

@ Jedi, I used to clean this glass on my previous HD350 (RS10) to good effect, so I would have expected to do this as well on myX35, but I haven't attempted to remove the lamp to check this (barely at 100 hours yet and no dimming so far). If I check this soon before anyone else, I will post back to let you know how easy or not it is.

@ Freebits I just leave it on CIE94 in Chromapure as well. You also have the debate as to whether you select rec709 or SMPTE-C but I may do one of each and just save two different memories in the Lumagen as I have 5 spare at the moment. cool.gif
post #850 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

As Mark states, one can adjust Lumagen greyscale and gamma in 1% increments but that is of course limited to doing it manually.
Actually I looked at this last evening and one can adjust gamma and grayscale in 1/2% (0.5%) luminance increments. even I'm not that anal.... tongue.gifsmile.gif
post #851 of 1794
Thread Starter 
Kelvin tweaking 5% is ok only if a movie is properly mastered correctly down to 16 for things that "should" be black. Aka most animated movies. On film based movies where "black" in the picture is not as black as let's say the top and bottom black boarders on a 2.35:1 movie, adjusting 5% will make you lose image quaility. frown.gif

Better to make 2 gamma modes. One that's correct, and one that's slightly raised at 5%. You may need to test in each movie for the best results. But that is kinda annoying to the others is the room... Lol.
post #852 of 1794
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Actually I looked at this last evening and one can adjust gamma and grayscale in 1/2% (0.5%) luminance increments. even I'm not that anal.... tongue.gifsmile.gif

I am... lol.

.5% would be video level 17... Thats the best way to pull out shadow detail!!!

being able to adj 17 / 18 / 19 would be perfect!!!

5% is adjusting around video level 25 / 26 / 27 / 28 / 29 (still not low enough to pull out the best details)
Edited by SOWK - 1/21/13 at 10:16am
post #853 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Actually I looked at this last evening and one can adjust gamma and grayscale in 1/2% (0.5%) luminance increments. even I'm not that anal.... tongue.gifsmile.gif

I looked again too at CalMAN's DCC and it's 0.1% there. Does the Lumagen just round off to 0.5%?
post #854 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

So just to be clear, if we want to make tweaks, run the auto cal for greyscale/gamma FIRST and then do any tweaks if you wish to greyscale and/or gamma (gamma tweaks would just be to the low end ~5%, so it sounds like any errors as a result of tweaking wont have any significant impact in general, right?). Once you have any tweaks in place and are satisfied with both greyscale and gamma, then run the 125 point color calibration, correct?
As Kelvin states I do the tweaking first but in reality it may not matter much. The 125pt Autocal routine calculates its luminance targets based on what gamma you have selected in the pull down menu (i.e., it does not measure gamma while running the 125 pt cal -- it uses the gamma value you've selected in the pull down menu). So you could do the tweaking before or after as long as you do not change the gamma value you selected. Please note that it's very important that you select the same gamma value when you run grayscale/gamma autocal and run the 125 pt auto cal.

After I run a grayscale and gamma auto cal I use the Gamma module in Chromapure to make manual tweaks. Start by taking a 100% reading and then choose the 5% steps (if you desire) and also select continuous. Work your way down from 90% (or 95% if you selected 5% increments) to 10% (or 5%). As you progress thru this Chromapure will automatically setup the Lumagen for the proper grayscale level. Next, enter the service mode on the Lumagen (this lets you edit gamma and grayscale values). Then at the Lumagen Top menu select Output -> CMS -> Gray/Gamma and select 11 pt or 21 pt depending on what you selected in CP (10% or 5%). After that you'll see a banner come up on the top of the screen. You'll also notice that the pattern is no longer showing...press 4 (I think but try 1 if not) on the Lumagen remote and the pattern will come up. Now comes the "tricky" part.....do not let Chromapure and the banner get out of sync with luminance value. Both have to be on the same setting (i.e., 80% or 60% etc). If you get out of sync just change the first value (I think it's the step number) in the banner so the luminance value in the banner matches the luminance value selected in Chromapure. When both are in sync you can tweak Luma, R, G, B values. Luma changes luminance and use this if the gamma needs tweaking and use R, G, or B if grayscale needs tweaking. There is some interaction so you may end up tweaking several of them. Adjust so both gamma and grayscale are good. When you get to the lower luminance's give it some time to make sure you get stable readings....if you make any changes let it settle out again - what you want is for the readings to be fairly stable. When you're done exit and save -- this saves the changes you just made but they are still not permanently saved after a Power Down/Power Up unless you also select Save in the Lumagen Top menu. And if you've screwed the pooch just exit without saving. This sounds far more complicated that it is because a) I'm not a writer and b) I'm going by memory and c) after a few minutes you'll get the hang of it. The first time thru may take some time but enjoy it as you'll never have another first time!!! tongue.gif
Edited by Geof - 1/21/13 at 12:05pm
post #855 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

I looked again too at CalMAN's DCC and it's 0.1% there. Does the Lumagen just round off to 0.5%?
I don't know....again I am referring to luminance step increments (not 10% or 5% but 0.5%) not luminance resolution (I don't know what Calmans DDC is).
post #856 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

I am... lol.

.5% would be video level 17... Thats the best way to pull out shadow detail!!!

being able to adj 17 / 18 / 19 would be perfect!!!

5% is adjusting around video level 25 / 26 / 27 / 28 / 29 (still not low enough to pull out the best details)
Oh well yes adjusting one or two or even a half dozen that's one thing (and I am that anal too)....but no way I'm going thru the entire range in 0.5% increments.....eek.gifeek.gifeek.gif
post #857 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I don't know....again I am referring to luminance step increments (not 10% or 5% but 0.5%) not luminance resolution (I don't know what Calmans DDC is).

It's Direct Device Control. But I get what you are saying now. That would be very useful! I'm having a little trouble with shadow detail too.
post #858 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK View Post

Kelvin tweaking 5% is ok only if a movie is properly mastered correctly down to 16 for things that "should" be black. Aka most animated movies. On film based movies where "black" in the picture is not as black as let's say the top and bottom black boarders on a 2.35:1 movie, adjusting 5% will make you lose image quaility. frown.gif

Better to make 2 gamma modes. One that's correct, and one that's slightly raised at 5%. You may need to test in each movie for the best results. But that is kinda annoying to the others is the room... Lol.

Yes I see what you mean, though having a 2.35:1 screen and an A lens I have no black bars to compare against. At least with the Lumagen you can change memories without anyone knowing so long as the output type, resolution and frame rate is the same then the change is imperceptible (apart from the desired change by using a different CMS memory wink.gif ). To be honest though I've not really found many discs that need the adjustment that you mention and I don't watch cartoons myself. For me the whole point of calibration is that I don't have to keep fiddling with the settings so if a disc has raised black levels, then I just run with it and I usually find that a fade to black seems to go to 16 (or maybe below) anyway.

However, in the light of the comments about what percentage relates to which flashing bars, I think I might be tempted to use the JVC's 5% control and move the Lumagen's 5% control down to 1% to adjust the lowest points I can next time I run a calibration, so thanks for this information.

FWIW I never touch the RGB offsets on a JVC: Raising any of them above 0 will raise the black floor and lowering any may tend to cause the low level detail issues that have been talked about. I've not used the X35's offsets so I don't know if this is still valid however (especially since it has the black level adjust control that my HD350 didn't have).
post #859 of 1794
Thread Starter 
I was watching across the universe blu-ray and noticed the whole move looked a little "off"

That’s because I was using my tweaked 5% gamma mode vs my flat 2.22.

That movie rarely has scenes that are authored correctly down to 16

Once I changed to the flat 2.22 it was "perfect."
post #860 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

As Kelvin states I do the tweaking first but in reality it may not matter much. The 125pt Autocal routine calculates its luminance targets based on what gamma you have selected in the pull down menu (i.e., it does not measure gamma while running the 125 pt cal -- it uses the gamma value you've selected in the pull down menu). So you could do the tweaking before or after as long as you do not change the gamma value you selected. Please note that it's very important that you select the same gamma value when you run grayscale/gamma autocal and run the 125 pt auto cal.
Actually I take this back...I think it may make a difference.

It is true that Chromapure calculates the correct 125 pt levels based on the gamma that is selected in the pull down menu (I have verified this with Tom). But if the readings that it takes are incorrect because of erroneous gamma value (ie, one that you would normally tweak) it may be making corrections that it would not have to make if the actual gamma value was correct. So, do the gamma and grayscale tweaks before running the 125 pt autocal.
post #861 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

This sounds far more complicated that it is because a) I'm not a writer and b) I'm going by memory and c) after a few minutes you'll get the hang of it. The first time thru may take some time but enjoy it as you'll never have another first time!!! tongue.gif

tongue.gif

You did great explaining it. I printed out your post and will experiment with this next time I pull out the calibration gear. Thanks again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post



However, in the light of the comments about what percentage relates to which flashing bars, I think I might be tempted to use the JVC's 5% control and move the Lumagen's 5% control down to 1% to adjust the lowest points I can next time I run a calibration, so thanks for this information.

Still a bit confused on this. So you would actually adjust the JVCs 5% control, but change the Lumagen from 5% down to 1% before you adjust in the JVC? How would this be different vs just leaving the Lumagen in 5% mode and still adjusting in the JVC at 5% (in other words you would still adjust in the JVC in both cases at 5% but in the first scenario the Lumagen would be set at 1% and the second scenario the Lumagen would be set at 5%)?
post #862 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Actually I take this back...I think it may make a difference.

It is true that Chromapure calculates the correct 125 pt levels based on the gamma that is selected in the pull down menu (I have verified this with Tom). But if the readings that it takes are incorrect because of erroneous gamma value (ie, one that you would normally tweak) it may be making corrections that it would not have to make if the actual gamma value was correct. So, do the gamma and grayscale tweaks before running the 125 pt autocal.

Gotcha. So do all tweaks before the 125 point and then do the 125 pt autocal and after that, dont touch it! biggrin.gif In that case, I might just hang with my straight 2.22 for now and not even mess with tweaking it, but next time I run an auto cal use a seperate CMS setting in the Lumagen with the tweaked gamma/greyscale so I can have both my original untweaked and my new tweaked and experiment with both depending on the material.
post #863 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Gotcha. So do all tweaks before the 125 point and then do the 125 pt autocal and after that, dont touch it! biggrin.gif In that case, I might just hang with my straight 2.22 for now and not even mess with tweaking it, but next time I run an auto cal do a seperate CMS setting with the tweaked gamma/greyscale so I can have both and experiment with both depending on the material.

Yeah part of the beauty of the Lumagen is having 8 CMS memories to play with. I do my Gamma/grayscale and after I get all the tweaks done I copy it to another CMS memory. For two reasons: First it's nice to compare a gamma grayscale calibrated picture to a gamma, grayscale, 125 point calibrated picture. Secondly, if I play around with the cal gear a day or two later it's far easier to tweak any drifting manually without re-running the gamma and grayscale auto cal (I once forgot to copy and stupidly started a gamma-grayscale autocal which zero's all all those tweaks mad.gif )


I trust you know to adjust the white balance (grayscale) at 100% using the gains in the JVC user menu (or in the service menu if you prefer.....the service menu is global, the user menu is not). I do it in the SM but others do it in the UM....either works.

But as Kelvin explains don't dork with the cuts (again some folks do but we have a Lumagen so we don't have to wink.gif ). There can be side effects as Kelvin so aptly explains:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

FWIW I never touch the RGB offsets on a JVC: Raising any of them above 0 will raise the black floor and lowering any may tend to cause the low level detail issues that have been talked about. I've not used the X35's offsets so I don't know if this is still valid however (especially since it has the black level adjust control that my HD350 didn't have).
post #864 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Still a bit confused on this. So you would actually adjust the JVCs 5% control, but change the Lumagen from 5% down to 1% before you adjust in the JVC? How would this be different vs just leaving the Lumagen in 5% mode and still adjusting in the JVC at 5% (in other words you would still adjust in the JVC in both cases at 5% but in the first scenario the Lumagen would be set at 1% and the second scenario the Lumagen would be set at 5%)?

As per your comment now in bold:

The autocal greyscale will adjust the Lumagen at 5%. I want to then use the Lumagen's control to adjust 1% so I have to move this control down to 1% in the Lumagen menu and then tweak the very low end. This then may leave the 5% reading off from target (gamma/whitebalance) so my plan is to then use the JVC 5% adjustment to make any correction if needed to put gamma where I want it (2.1 probably).

Makes sense in my head, but might not be very clear I guess. It might even be that in practice it doesn't make enough difference to worry about.
post #865 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

...
my plan is to then use the JVC 5% adjustment to make any correction if needed to put gamma where I want it (2.1 probably).
....

I'm completely ignorant of how the gamma works in these new JVC's. But if it's anything like the old, it drags neighboring points around with it. It was very frustrating. Can these new pj's gamma points be adjusted without effecting neighboring points?
post #866 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by erkq View Post

I'm completely ignorant of how the gamma works in these new JVC's. But if it's anything like the old, it drags neighboring points around with it. It was very frustrating. Can these new pj's gamma points be adjusted without effecting neighboring points?
Nope...that was the exact problem I ran into when trying to use the internal custom gamma controls on my 4810. It was a total PITA.
post #867 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

Yeah part of the beauty of the Lumagen is having 8 CMS memories to play with. I do my Gamma/grayscale and after I get all the tweaks done I copy it to another CMS memory. For two reasons: First it's nice to compare a gamma grayscale calibrated picture to a gamma, grayscale, 125 point calibrated picture. Secondly, if I play around with the cal gear a day or two later it's far easier to tweak any drifting manually without re-running the gamma and grayscale auto cal (I once forgot to copy and stupidly started a gamma-grayscale autocal which zero's all all those tweaks mad.gif )


I trust you know to adjust the white balance (grayscale) at 100% using the gains in the JVC user menu (or in the service menu if you prefer.....the service menu is global, the user menu is not). I do it in the SM but others do it in the UM....either works.

But as Kelvin explains don't dork with the cuts (again some folks do but we have a Lumagen so we don't have to wink.gif ). There can be side effects as Kelvin so aptly explains:

I love the 8 CMS memories. I am using 2 projectors right now so it will be great to be able to easily switch between the CMS memories for the different displays and for other various reasons as you mention.

I did adjust the 100% white balance before running the auto cal using only the JVC gains and did not touch the offsets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

As per your comment now in bold:

The autocal greyscale will adjust the Lumagen at 5%. I want to then use the Lumagen's control to adjust 1% so I have to move this control down to 1% in the Lumagen menu and then tweak the very low end. This then may leave the 5% reading off from target (gamma/whitebalance) so my plan is to then use the JVC 5% adjustment to make any correction if needed to put gamma where I want it (2.1 probably).

Makes sense in my head, but might not be very clear I guess. It might even be that in practice it doesn't make enough difference to worry about.

Gotcha. That makes sense to me now and I will experiment with this next time I break out the gear. If you try it before I do, be sure to let us know how it goes as I am curious.
post #868 of 1794
Will do but sounds like there is still the interaction between different levels using the JVC gamma, so it might end up being a frustrating exercise.
post #869 of 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Thay are definitely a good thing to have.

http://www.tequipment.net/AEMCCA813.html?gclid=CKPKwaj-77QCFad_Qgodk20AGg


...I don't see a zero adjust on the CA813. It would seem zero adjust would be a desirable feature to help deal with drift, especially at low level measurements?.
post #870 of 1794
Any reports on how the lamps are holding up after some hours are getting logged?
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