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Sony XBR-HX950 Owners' Thread (XBR-55HX9​50 and XBR-65HX95​0) - Page 6

post #151 of 4484
I'm considering ordering one of these, but my concern with this set is the input lag (it is an LCD, after all). I use my TV's primarily for console gaming (occasional movies/tv), so a noticeable ampount of input lag would definitely be a deal-breaker for me. For this reason, I'm torn between this set and the Panasonic VT50. The Panny, however, obviously comes with its own problems - IR and low brightness being the worst for me.

Anyway, can anyone weigh in on how 950 fares input-lag wise? Thanks!
post #152 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

I'm considering ordering one of these, but my concern with this set is the input lag (it is an LCD, after all). I use my TV's primarily for console gaming (occasional movies/tv), so a noticeable ampount of input lag would definitely be a deal-breaker for me. For this reason, I'm torn between this set and the Panasonic VT50. The Panny, however, obviously comes with its own problems - IR and low brightness being the worst for me.
Anyway, can anyone weigh in on how 950 fares input-lag wise? Thanks!


Both will have the same input lag
post #153 of 4484
I certainly hope that's the case. It's a shame that input lag isn't factory-specified. Many reviews don't really go over it, either.

I'm thinking I'll just drag my xbox 360 into a BB and ask the m to plug it in, if they have a 950 on display.
post #154 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

I certainly hope that's the case. It's a shame that input lag isn't factory-specified. Many reviews don't really go over it, either.
I'm thinking I'll just drag my xbox 360 into a BB and ask the m to plug it in, if they have a 950 on display.

Unfortunately some of the showroom settings will cause lag, a reason why some of the preset settings need to be adjusted. As per many of the 929 owners have indicated the lag is nominal once adjusted.
post #155 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

I certainly hope that's the case. It's a shame that input lag isn't factory-specified. Many reviews don't really go over it, either.
I'm thinking I'll just drag my xbox 360 into a BB and ask the m to plug it in, if they have a 950 on display.



Enable the game mode
post #156 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMRIZZO View Post

Unfortunately some of the showroom settings will cause lag, a reason why some of the preset settings need to be adjusted. As per many of the 929 owners have indicated the lag is nominal once adjusted.

Good to know. Any advice on how to optimize this kind of TV for a console (other than using the Game Mode)?
post #157 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

Good to know. Any advice on how to optimize this kind of TV for a console (other than using the Game Mode)?

I'm not a gamer but, members in the 929 thread said my settings worked quite well. It seems some of the features I turned off helped.
post #158 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

I'm considering ordering one of these, but my concern with this set is the input lag (it is an LCD, after all). I use my TV's primarily for console gaming (occasional movies/tv), so a noticeable ampount of input lag would definitely be a deal-breaker for me. For this reason, I'm torn between this set and the Panasonic VT50. The Panny, however, obviously comes with its own problems - IR and low brightness being the worst for me.
Anyway, can anyone weigh in on how 950 fares input-lag wise? Thanks!

I'm a pretty hardcore gamer myself (all consoles, hundreds of games) with a 65HX950 on pre-order. But since I don't play a lot of online FPS games (which is the only place where lag is really a noticeable factor since music games are adjustable fort it), I've never been too worried about it. Game mode might MIGHT be OK as a last resort, but on most TVs it absolutely destroys picture quality. For example, I happen to love motion interpolation turned ON (Samsung AMP, Motionflow, etc) for console games that are 30 FPS limited, because it eliminates camera panning judder tremendously. I've been playing all games with AMP on for the past 4 years with no lag problems I've noticed. Well, Game mode, at least on my Samsung, disables the motion interpolation, so picture quality suffers a lot in my opinion! If HX950 has a Game mode that can keep MotionFlow enabled, that might be amazing. Now, 60FPS games like Rage have no real issue with judder, because the frame rate is matched to the 60Hz screen refresh rate, so there is no real judder to worry about. The problem comes in when the console displays 30FPS limited games at 60Hz normal TV screen refresh. That's when nasty judder happens.

Be careful, from personal experience, 30FPS judder is UNBEARABLE on a plasma (flashing trailing ghost double images galore!!!) unless you turn on motion interpolation. Samsung plasmas don't have motion interpolation! Panasonic ones do, but due to the nature of plasma tech, the effect might still be hard to deal with. I had to return my Samsung plasma for primarily this reason.

If you DO use Game mode, I would only use it for games where you can really tell a few extra miliseconds might make a difference, like FPS online shooters, or MAYBE online fighting games. Of course, online games are going to have their own network lag introduced, so in the end its probably a wash, and I would not lose much sleep over lag. Better not to have bleeding eyeballs from dealing with flashing double image judder when panning, IMHO.

I'd still go with Sony if I were you. After all, Sony is the ONLY TV maker that also makes a high end gaming console. If THEY can't even get the lag right, no other company is going to be able to, or even bother with it!
Edited by Flavius - 9/24/12 at 10:20am
post #159 of 4484
The only downfall to playing games on the HX929 is that when you're in game mode local dimming is extremely limited. It makes the TV on par with a good CCFL set. Maybe they've improved this mode on the HX950 and make local dimming fully functional like on the Elite sets in game mode.
post #160 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpmurr View Post

The only downfall to playing games on the HX929 is that when you're in game mode local dimming is extremely limited. It makes the TV on par with a good CCFL set. Maybe they've improved this mode on the HX950 and make local dimming fully functional like on the Elite sets in game mode.

Can you enable MotionFlow in game mode on the HX929??? Before you laugh, read my post right above.
post #161 of 4484
I do play online FPS games, so ideally I'd like the input lag to be as small as possible. However, I am upgrading from an older, cheaper Bravia television set, and I find the input lag on that machine to be tolerable (though still noticeable). So, if the XBR-HX950 is at least no worse in the lag department than Sony's older TV's, I should be fine.

Still not 100% sure whether I want this Sony or the Panny VT50. I'm leaning towards this set, just because I don't want to worry about IR and burn-in. As someone who occasionally leaves games on for hours at a time, hosts LAN parties, and lets other people use his tv, the potential burn-in would be a neverending fear and headache for me .

...although, now that I think about it, some burned-in crosshairs would be a GREAT cheating device in Call of Duty, haha wink.gif
post #162 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

I do play online FPS games, so ideally I'd like the input lag to be as small as possible. However, I am upgrading from an older, cheaper Bravia television set, and I find the input lag on that machine to be tolerable (though still noticeable). So, if the XBR-HX950 is at least no worse in the lag department than Sony's older TV's, I should be fine.
Still not 100% sure whether I want this Sony or the Panny VT50. I'm leaning towards this set, just because I don't want to worry about IR and burn-in. As someone who occasionally leaves games on for hours at a time, hosts LAN parties, and lets other people use his tv, the potential burn-in would be a neverending fear and headache for me .

I too am waffling between the 65" HX950 and vt50. I am somewhat worried about IR as well due to kids, games, etc., but I think that may ultimately be a bit overblown. The thing that will decide it for me is if the reviews (and my eyes-on evaluation) show that the Sony really does have great PQ. The HX950 is $1500-$1800 more expensive and there better be a significant improvement for me to spend 2 TVs worth of $$!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

...although, now that I think about it, some burned-in crosshairs would be a GREAT cheating device in Call of Duty, haha wink.gif

Tape some fishing line across your screen. It is a non-permanent solution. smile.gif
-Tom
post #163 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by tome View Post

I am somewhat worried about IR as well due to kids, games, etc., but I think that may ultimately be a bit overblown-Tom

I thought so too, but I've read more than a few testaments of long-lasting IR on 2012 Pannys. Also, Cnet had a recent article in which they documented that a few hours of still images create seemingly permanent burn-in images on the GT50, and very long-lasting image retention on the VT50. So, from what i've gathered, it's relatively safe, but there is always a chance it'll happen to you.

Speaking of reviews, the HX950 has been out for nearly a month now, and still no reviews. Where art thou, Cnet?
Edited by Foobarillo - 9/24/12 at 11:34am
post #164 of 4484
Here is the Cnet article for those interested: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/
The VT50 is also in the mix and faired better than the GT50....

But there is this info, which basically says "don't worry, be happy..." http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57480003-221/do-i-need-to-break-in-a-new-plasma-tv-morrisons-mailbag/

I'm still not convinced one way or another considering that if I save $1500 and I get burn-in, I can buy a new TV in a year or two that will be better/stronger/faster/able to leap tall buildings and will have paid for it in advance.

I am still torn...
Tom
post #165 of 4484
Guys, I think you will be much happier with the HX950 for gaming compared to the VT50. Reason being the judder problem on plasmas when playing 30FPS limited titles. It's really bad, or was on my Samsung 64" E7000 plasma I had to return. With no motion interpolation, I found most games UNPLAYABLE due to double image flashing ghost judder! Examples being Assassin's Creed on 360, and Infamous 2 on PS3 as prime offenders. Only Rage at 60FPS was any good. Now the VT50 has some kind of motion interpolation I hear, unlike the Samsung plasma, BUT... is it good enough to get around what I saw? I came running back to my old 120Hz LCD, which while it had more motion blur, handled 30FPS judder much better even with AMP off. There was no distracting flashing of the double image while panning. And of course AMP reduces everything significantly as MotionFlow should.

You also have to factor in that plasmas tend to FLICKER in 2D with any kind of bright scene (only some people see this, I am one of the unlucky ones), and that bright scenes like sky or snow will be BRIGHTNESS LIMITED due to plasma tech. Plus the IR, and the line bleed, and the heat, and the buzz.. You're better off with the HX950. Not to mention that the Panny plasmas are supposed to be worse for IR than the Samsung plasmas. I used to have plasmas prior to 2008 and I was always paranoid and had to run the screen wipes a lot to get rid of IR from games on my Panny plasmas! Plasma is an ancient tech, honestly, just look at the guy who invented it, who presented at the 2012 Value Electronics flat panel shootout... he's like 80!
Edited by Flavius - 9/24/12 at 12:19pm
post #166 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Guys, I think you will be much happier with the HX950 for gaming compared to the VT50. Reason being the judder problem on plasmas when playing 30FPS limited titles. It's really bad, or was on my Samsung 64" E7000 plasma I had to return. With no motion interpolation, I found most games UNPLAYABLE due to double image flashing ghost judder! Examples being Assassin's Creed on 360, and Infamous 2 on PS3 as prime offenders. Only Rage at 60FPS was any good. Now the VT50 has some kind of motion interpolation I hear, unlike the Samsung plasma, BUT... is it good enough to get around what I saw? I came running back to my old 120Hz LCD, which while it had more motion blur, handled 30FPS judder much better even with AMP off. There was no distracting flashing of the double image while panning. And of course AMP reduces everything significantly as MotionFlow should.
You also have to factor in that plasmas tend to FLICKER in 2D with any kind of bright scene (only some people see this, I am one of the unlucky ones), and that bright scenes like sky or snow will be BRIGHTNESS LIMITED due to plasma tech. Plus the IR, and the line bleed, and the heat, and the buzz.. You're better off with the HX950. Not to mention that the Panny plasmas are supposed to be worse for IR than the Samsung plasmas. I used to have plasmas prior to 2008 and I was always paranoid and had to run the screen wipes a lot to get rid of IR from games on my Panny plasmas! Plasma is an ancient tech, honestly, just look at the guy who invented it, who presented at the 2012 Value Electronics flat panel shootout... he's like 80!

"he's like 80"

Oh come on....not a day over 75...
post #167 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by tome View Post

Here is the Cnet article for those interested: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57449881-221/samsung-plasma-wins-cnets-accidental-burn-in-test/
The VT50 is also in the mix and faired better than the GT50....
But there is this info, which basically says "don't worry, be happy..." http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57480003-221/do-i-need-to-break-in-a-new-plasma-tv-morrisons-mailbag/
I'm still not convinced one way or another considering that if I save $1500 and I get burn-in, I can buy a new TV in a year or two that will be better/stronger/faster/able to leap tall buildings and will have paid for it in advance.
I am still torn...
Tom

the "don't worry, be happy" article still admits that you will get IR occasionally - though it is fixable by watching normal dynamic programming. However, fixable or no, it still seems like an annoyance that weighs down the contrast ratio advantage of the plasma tech.

95% convinced to go for the Sony - just hope I can read some in-depth reviews and gamers' opinions before I buy one myself.

EDIT - just realized that my corporate discount program makes the set $2300. Done and done! Buying.
Edited by Foobarillo - 9/24/12 at 1:53pm
post #168 of 4484
I am a hardcore gamer and will be reporting my feelings on the lag once I get the set. I will be playing my games in game mode because I'm willing to take the hit in picture quality to have a less laggy experience.
post #169 of 4484
I believe the features that lead to lag are:
Reality Creation Off
Smooth Gradation Off
MotionFlow Off
post #170 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

I'm a pretty hardcore gamer myself (all consoles, hundreds of games) with a 65HX950 on pre-order. But since I don't play a lot of online FPS games (which is the only place where lag is really a noticeable factor since music games are adjustable fort it), I've never been too worried about it. Game mode might MIGHT be OK as a last resort, but on most TVs it absolutely destroys picture quality. For example, I happen to love motion interpolation turned ON (Samsung AMP, Motionflow, etc) for console games that are 30 FPS limited, because it eliminates camera panning judder tremendously. I've been playing all games with AMP on for the past 4 years with no lag problems I've noticed. Well, Game mode, at least on my Samsung, disables the motion interpolation, so picture quality suffers a lot in my opinion! If HX950 has a Game mode that can keep MotionFlow enabled, that might be amazing. Now, 60FPS games like Rage have no real issue with judder, because the frame rate is matched to the 60Hz screen refresh rate, so there is no real judder to worry about. The problem comes in when the console displays 30FPS limited games at 60Hz normal TV screen refresh. That's when nasty judder happens.
Be careful, from personal experience, 30FPS judder is UNBEARABLE on a plasma (flashing trailing ghost double images galore!!!) unless you turn on motion interpolation. Samsung plasmas don't have motion interpolation! Panasonic ones do, but due to the nature of plasma tech, the effect might still be hard to deal with. I had to return my Samsung plasma for primarily this reason.
If you DO use Game mode, I would only use it for games where you can really tell a few extra miliseconds might make a difference, like FPS online shooters, or MAYBE online fighting games. Of course, online games are going to have their own network lag introduced, so in the end its probably a wash, and I would not lose much sleep over lag. Better not to have bleeding eyeballs from dealing with flashing double image judder when panning, IMHO.
I'd still go with Sony if I were you. After all, Sony is the ONLY TV maker that also makes a high end gaming console. If THEY can't even get the lag right, no other company is going to be able to, or even bother with it!


Simply enable the functions DETAIL ENHANCER and EDGE ENHANCER, in the ADVANCED MENU, the image is very good at GAME MODE.
post #171 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by WandVillela View Post

Simply enable the functions DETAIL ENHANCER and EDGE ENHANCER, in the ADVANCED MENU, the image is very good at GAME MODE.

Sir, your posts are too short. Are you talking about the HX950? Does it let you enable MotionFlow in Game mode? I think I have made it clear above why MotionFlow is a necessity for sub-60FPS games, regardless of any introduced lag. But individual opinions may differ.

Elimination of judder at 30FPS yields such an improvement to picture quality IMHO that lag is not even an issue unless it so bad I couldn't play the game, which it is not. (speaking from Samsung AMP experience on a 2008 TV)
post #172 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Does it let you enable MotionFlow in Game mode?

Yes, I'm talking about the HX950

Unfortunately it´s not possible.

I think it will increase the INPUT LAG.
post #173 of 4484
Wow, my corp discount shows $2699. Do you work for Sony? wink.gif
post #174 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by WandVillela View Post

Yes, I'm talking about the HX950
Unfortunately it´s not possible.
I think it will increase the INPUT LAG.

Ok, thanks. I guess Game Mode is out for me then as I really need MotionFlow/AMP in my console games. I'm a heretic, I know, I know, but I hate judder far more than lag.

Does MotionFlow offer different levels, like AMP does? For instance, is there a MotionFlow Low, Medium, High?
post #175 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Ok, thanks. I guess Game Mode is out for me then as I really need MotionFlow/AMP in my console games. I'm a heretic, I know, I know, but I hate judder far more than lag.
Does MotionFlow offer different levels, like AMP does? For instance, is there a MotionFlow Low, Medium, High?

Yes, there is Low, Medium and High.

I don´t perceive JUDDERS playing game mode in my HX920.
post #176 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMRIZZO View Post

I believe the features that lead to lag are:
Reality Creation Off
Smooth Gradation Off
MotionFlow Off

Hmm, the MotionFlow creating lag is a bummer (makes sense, though). I guess I'll have to turn it off for competitive FPS play, but perhaps it'll be ok for everything else gaming-wise. I'll weigh in to the best of my ability once the set does come in.


No, I don't work for Sony. I'm a junior engineer for a laser phosphor display company.
post #177 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foobarillo View Post

Hmm, the MotionFlow creating lag is a bummer (makes sense, though). I guess I'll have to turn it off for competitive FPS play, but perhaps it'll be ok for everything else gaming-wise. I'll weigh in to the best of my ability once the set does come in.
.

This is what I am hoping too. I believe Samsung's equivalent Auto Motion Plus also adds some lag. But I wonder which would add more lag? AMP on a Samsung 120Hz CCFL from 2008, or MotionFlow on a 2012 Sony 240Hz LED with presumably MUCH faster video processing chips?! Logic dictates the Sony would have less lag.

I have the HDMI splitter, PC, and software needed to actually do a a proper test on this. You just need one of those super precise screen timers that measure milliseconds and display the results live. I might do it and post the results when I get my 65HX950 in, comparing lag with MotionFlow and Game mode on and off, and comparing it to the 2008 Samsung with AMP and Game mode on and off. Sounds like a fun project. biggrin.gif I might be horrified to learn just how much lag I've been dealing with playing all console games with AMP Low for 4 straight years. tongue.gif
Edited by Flavius - 9/24/12 at 3:19pm
post #178 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius View Post

Oh what joyous things to read on the 3D and interpolation front! How is Wipeout HD, or maybe Halo CE? Does it say anywhere if the TV supports 1080p60Hz Frame Packed 3D?
I'm actually a bit concerned you don't see any SOE like on Samsung. Worried the judder reduction so critical for low framerate games and movies isn't as good as a result. But the Motionflow 960 effect I saw on a HX929 in Fry's was incredible.
I recommend you try Open Season 3D, it's supposed to have the best 3D of any BluRay out there, believe it or not.

My experience using my PC with the previous HX929 model is that it would do 3D at 1080p30, meaning 30 FPS per eye. It would not do 60 per eye, which I believe is a limitation of the current generation of HDMI chips that don't have the bandwidth to support it. New ones with the required bandwidth exist but I'm not sure of any consumer products that support it beyond the newest generation of AMD 7XXX and nVidia 6XX series video cards for PC.
post #179 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash676 View Post

My experience using my PC with the previous HX929 model is that it would do 3D at 1080p30, meaning 30 FPS per eye. It would not do 60 per eye, which I believe is a limitation of the current generation of HDMI chips that don't have the bandwidth to support it. New ones with the required bandwidth exist but I'm not sure of any consumer products that support it beyond the newest generation of AMD 7XXX and nVidia 6XX series video cards for PC.

It would not do 60fps per eye.

I think it's 60hz
post #180 of 4484
Quote:
Originally Posted by WandVillela View Post

It would not do 60fps per eye.
I think it's 60hz

No it would not. Flash is 100% correct in what he said above. So if you have a game that can play at 60FPS in 2D 1080p, it would HAVE to drop to 30FPS in 3D 1080p. Not due to console power, but because no HDMI chip in mass production, no receiver, no TV can currently handle that properly. The HX950 also can't as confirmed by someone earlier in this thread... neither can the latest high end Sony AVRs. Wipeout HD in 3D on PS3 does the same thing 1080p60Hz/60FPS in 2D, 1080p30Hz/30FPS in 3D. But believe me, it still looks and plays incredible in 3D. The other thing consoles games can do is drop resolution to 720p and then the bandwidth is sufficient to show 60Hz/60FPS to each eye.

I think this will only be corrected by an HDMI 1.5 specification and faster 300Mhz+ HDMI chips. So yeah, we might as well forget about 60Hz per eye for 3D unless you build your own custom PC gaming rig with specialized monitors or projectors. At least its not a problem for BluRay 3D movies with are designed around 24Hz/FPS, and so I believe will send 24Hz to each eye over 3D in 1080p, well below the 30Hz per eye limitation.


Now don't get confused by the fact that consoles like the 360 output 60Hz to your TV during games even though they are only running at 30FPS. You can have FPS rendered lower than the refresh rate, but you cannot have FPS rendered higher than the refresh rate! Well, you could, but there would be zero point to it, honestly. Your eyes wouldn't see it.

This makes me wonder how next gen consoles are going to handle 3D. But that's a whole other can of worms. You can learn more in this other thread: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1341547/1080p60-per-eye-3d-over-hdmi-1-4a-will-be-possible-in-2012/120#post_22430870
Edited by Flavius - 9/24/12 at 3:17pm
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