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DONE with DENON. Suggestions needed please... - Page 2

post #31 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hey Guys, I think this is one of the most counter-productive threads ever.

Actually some pretty enlightening comments came out in the process. I don't see anything counter-productive about that, unless you work for Denon and are inclined to dodge complaints.
post #32 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Actually some pretty enlightening comments came out in the process. I don't see anything counter-productive about that, unless you work for Denon and are inclined to dodge complaints.

IMHO, and as I see everyone is telling with brand/model to buy and which one not. Where is the truth? If you can point me to a maker/model for which there is no Service Manual issued, I'll go for that unit next time I plan an upgrade. smile.gif
post #33 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hey Guys, I think this is one of the most counter-productive threads ever. In post #2 I asked the OP to give some details on what went wrong with his Denon, but he never returned. He also mentioned that his wife is bored with always having to reset the microprocessor which I thought was not something chivalrous or gallant, the least to say. With this manner I'm not even sure his Denon went wrong! Go figure!
Nonetheless, to make a long story short, Murphy said what he said about things going wrong. Remember? smile.gif

DEFINITELY counter-productive if you're a Denon fanboy.

Original Poster -

If you dont care anything about 3D you can get a 1.3 hdmi receiver which will be MUCH more reliable than any of the 3D ready receivers. Particularly with Onkyo, most of their issues started with the introduction of HDMI then got worse with 1.4 (3D). I have owned Onkyo receivers for YEARS and loved all of them. I have been one of many Onkyo customers who has never had an issue although I do acknowledge that their HDMI boards HAVE had manufacturing issues.

I've always had a bad feeling about Denon receivers and they are a lot more expensive than Pioneers, Yamahas, or Onkyo, hence I've never owned a Denon. All brands of receivers are going to inherrantly have issues for some people. They dont properly ventilate them. They get moved and bumped around a lot. Some things are out of our control. But others are just poor manufacturing.

If I were in your shoes and DONE with Denon receivers I would do one of the following:

I would check out the Onkyo TX SR-607. They can be purchased used for less than $300 but finding one new or refurbed would be ideal. I have this specific model on a non-3d tv in our living room since 2009 and my wife and I have loved every minute it has been used. Check out any of the '07 line as they seemed to have less people with issues than the other Onkyos. Their models seem to have gotten worse since that year although I have a 2011 model TX-NR709 that has never had an issue (knock on wood).

Check out Yamaha's... I've heard good things about them and they seem to have less issues than others.
Edited by ten8yp - 9/25/12 at 5:09am
post #34 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by hessel holland View Post

I've been very happy with my Yamaha RX-A3000. The newer RX-A3020 goes on sale the first week of October so there might be some deals coming up on last year's RX-A3010

My Yamaha RX-V2700, ancestor to the 3020, has been 100% flawless and working many hours since early 2007. But it's more than $1,000....
post #35 of 111
Thread Starter 
Sorry to disappear after starting this thread. I work some crazy hours (including weekends) and it's been particularly bad this past week.


First let me address the "Wife" comment mogorf. At no point are you qualified to comment on my marriage. It was an example of why were were tired of the Denon "Quality." I posted that example as we were resetting the microprocessor a dozen times a day. Instead of posting something incendiary about me and/or my wife, perhaps you should take a moment to calm down.

So, let's answer some questions.

In the last 3+ years the unit has been in the shop 3 times for a month at a time while parts are acquired. The shop is very professional and I have no issue with them. However a $1500 receiver should NOT be in the shop 3 times in 3 years. At that price point I expect there to be some quality control on Denon's part as they are charging a premium. I understand as a new receiver there can be issues when a part is not up to spec (Nic Card) but then the HDMI card and now possibly the power supply? Unacceptable.

The unit was housed in a cabinet with glass doors and a temperature controlled fan/filter system. One of the fans blows directly on the unit. Also it has passive cooling allowing heat to rise and escape out the back. In addition it is attached to a panamax power conditioner and has several inches of space above it for proper airflow.

So now as the unit is in the shop again I'm at a point where I feel I can't trust the machine anymore. It'll cost me to keep it, of that I'm sure as it'll just break down again. So I'm thinking instead of repairing it every year (especially now that it's out of warranty) I'm most likely going to get it repaired, sell it, and try to find something that doesn't suck (like my 3310ci).

Mark
post #36 of 111
...I've been buying slightly older broken high-end denon receivers for 50 - 80.
repairing bad caps if any (rarely) and
mostly just adding very silent PC fans. (2 or 3x 120mm fans) that are thermal controlled. (run at <1000 rpm all the way to 2500rpm)
I add these fans directly inside the receiver chassis.
I've then put them under 12hr torture tests driving 4ohm at reference levels with HDMI video, etc.
before reselling them for 280+ as refurbished. (depending on the model and vintage)


It seems to me the heatsinks or ventilation in these receivers is in adaquate but adding several < 20 - 25db 120mm fans solves all issues. be it the HDMI switching, DAC or Amps.

While Onkyo's have been rock-solid for me... the sound the denon puts out on the same speakers seems to be much better.
The auto-tuning is great.

As for what's the best.... I've never seen any receivers hold up under hot, poor ventilation conditions than Harman Kardon receivers. (then again I only know of two
that are kept in a closet like this... those guys gave me their 800+ 1200+ denon receivers.

If you're not happy with your broken or overheating denon receiver. send it to me. =)

as for power conditioners.. and what not... I've always thought them a waste of money.. good enough surge protector ought to be more than enough unless you live in a area with a bad grid.
Edited by variance - 9/25/12 at 12:28pm
post #37 of 111
Thread Starter 
Thanks ten8yp. I had Onkyo receivers for over ten years prior to my first Denon (the 3310ci) and while i'm tempted to go back I have heard a great deal of issues with the heat and HDMI from their latest units. I know I could pick up something refurbished that's older, but I do appreciate some of the more recent additions that have been added to higher end receivers.

As for the Yahama's, I was never a fan of teh sound. Always struck me as a little tinny. That's not to say it hasn't improved over the years (it's been at least 6 or 7 years since I heard one). I'll look into them.

Thanks
Mark
post #38 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by variance View Post

...I've been buying slightly older broken high-end denon receivers for 50 - 80. repairing bad caps if any (rarely) and mostly just adding very silent PC fans. (2 or 3x 120mm fans) that are thermoresistor controlled. I've then put them under 12hr torture tests driving 4ohm speakers before reselling them for 280+ as refurbished.
It seems to me the heatsinks or ventilation in these receivers is in adaquate but adding several < 20 - 25db 120mm fans solves all issues. be it the HDMI switching, DAC or Amps.


i remember hearing about people adding fans directly onto the vents of their units but never thought I needed it with the fans in the cabinet. When I get it back from the shop, maybe I'll give it a shot before replacing the unit.

Thanks
Mark
Edited by santora - 9/25/12 at 12:31pm
post #39 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

As teh 3310 doesn't have
i remember hearing about people adding fans directly onto the vents of their units but never thought I needed it with the fans in the cabinet. When I get it back from the shop, maybe I'll give it a shot before replacing the unit.
Thanks
Mark

Makes a world of difference. the tolerance of the soldering of those years is akin to the solder reflow issues 360s and PS3s may have at times.
If you need a reference as to quiet PC fans. i suggest http://silentpcreview.com

Fans in the cabinet aren't enough because the airflow isn't ejecting it from the metal case to begin with.

One thing I've yet to find out which is the most efficient is whether its angling the fans up to ventilate the air through the top. (which I've done for most of them)
although this recent one I have. I've tried a 140mm fan blowing downwards towards the heatsinks to eject the hot air out the side and bottom vents which are then
ejected by the ventilated cabinet.

Idea came to me when I discovered that the majority of the broken denon's i'd been traded in only failed after a few hours...
Open up the chassis. you'll see at the top there's plenty of space to ziptie/hotglue/mount 120mm - 140mm's on the top vents to either ventilate up or blow down.
from there you can find a 12v or 5v line somewhere or mount a internal 12/5v AC-DC connected to the receivers main power supply...
for a test. i'd just leave the fan connectors hanging out and use the molex power supply that came with my external USB sata/ide hard drive adapter. (9.95)
to see if the cooling is even having an effect.

there are one or two other things that are common but easy fixes on denon's. i'll take some pictures and maybe some thermal pictures demonstrating heat-buildup even in open-air of a Denon (mid-level and a high-end) vs HK (high-end) vs Onkyo (mid-level) vs Yamaha (entry-mid level) driving a difficult speaker load.

I concur that yamaha and pioneer kind of sound flat compared to Denon and even Onkyo... but those were entry-mid level yamaha and pioneers I gave to my ex and parents to replace their denons. and those denon's all kind of gathered dust until I was in a clean-out day and decided to test them before I threw them out.
Edited by variance - 9/25/12 at 12:42pm
post #40 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

IMHO, and as I see everyone is telling with brand/model to buy and which one not. Where is the truth? If you can point me to a maker/model for which there is no Service Manual issued, I'll go for that unit next time I plan an upgrade. smile.gif

If you're implying the thread is too confusing regarding gleaning any clear idea of which brands are more reliable, maybe you should take note of the repeated comments pro Pioneer and Yamaha in that regard, and the lack of negatives about them where reliability is concerned.

We all know there's a lot of personal preference on what kind of sound one prefers and features needed, but on reliability the consensus is pretty cut and dried really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by variance View Post

It seems to me the heatsinks or ventilation in these receivers is in adaquate but adding several < 20 - 25db 120mm fans solves all issues. be it the HDMI switching, DAC or Amps.

This is exactly what we're talking about. That's horrible efficiency if you need to put several fans inside them to keep parts from burning out, unacceptable.
post #41 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

If you're implying the thread is too confusing regarding gleaning any clear idea of which brands are more reliable, maybe you should take note of the repeated comments pro Pioneer and Yamaha in that regard, and the lack of negatives about them where reliability is concerned..

Exactly. This is what I started this thread for, to get some reasonable recommendations as to a solid AV receiver that could meet my requirements and wouldn't need multiple repairs in a 3 year period. I don't need another $1500 receiver. I'll never use all those features. And after my initial research pretty much all of the ones under $1000 have what I need so it's just a case of which is a good match for me. I'm not looking to aftermarket a $1500 machine because they didn't build enough cooling into it (but as I own the Denon I might try it while I find something new).

Mark
post #42 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

Exactly. This is what I started this thread for, to get some reasonable recommendations as to a solid AV receiver that could meet my requirements and wouldn't need multiple repairs in a 3 year period. I don't need another $1500 receiver. I'll never use all those features. And after my initial research pretty much all of the ones under $1000 have what I need so it's just a case of which is a good match for me. I'm not looking to aftermarket a $1500 machine because they didn't build enough cooling into it (but as I own the Denon I might try it while I find something new).
Mark

The most reliable AVR brand built today is Yamaha...
The primary reason is that they totally control the design, parts procurement, production and validation for their AVRs. They have their own factories in Malaysia, China and Japan.

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
post #43 of 111
First of all to santora: please accept my sincere apologies for my touching of sensitiy private issues, ...I should have known better, so, its my fault, very much my fault for getting carried away in such an unfriendly manner. I stand corrected.

Now, back on track. Guys, when it comes to talk about reliability in electronics, not only AVRs, but BD players, flat TVs, etc. being biased to A brand or B brand will not lead us to anywhere. For the technically savvy there might be no need, but otherwise I'd like to recommend a good read here.

The above article gives enough reasoning on life time expectations of electronic devices starting with the "bathtub" curve leading the reader through the key concepts of main stresses on our devices and basic protection methods.

I do believe non of us has direct access to global failure records, statistics, even benchmarking among the brands mentioned in this thread, therefore IMHO any mentioning of A brand being more reliable than B brand is purely speculative, biased and is by no way based on real world facts.

I will not post in this thread anymore, unless being called back.

Thank you for your attention.

Take care.smile.gif
post #44 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The most reliable AVR brand built today is Yamaha...
The primary reason is that they totally control the design, parts procurement, production and validation for their AVRs. They have their own factories in Malaysia, China and Japan.
Just my $0.02... wink.gif
That may be but my Yammy 867 could not hold it's own at the same level as the Pio Elite VSX23-TXH I wanted to replace at similar volumes. Yamaha support had no answers for this so I returned it. I know the Pio Elite has a far better amp section but I needed a 3D AVR. So got the Onkyo 809. That thing had all the balls the Pio did. I had...an issue...and now have an Onkyo 818. So I have had the Audyssey, YPAO, and MCACC and can say they are all different and all work to an extent. For sheer grunt and power the Yamaha was not in the same class, and spare the comments because I know what class it is in. I still have my Pio if the OP wants to PM me and I might make him a deal. That thing is a brute but it has the Pioneer ignored sometimes power on by remote problem. Other than that it works fine so folks saying Pioneer is all that need to pay attention and read up. That is an Elite AVR that Pioneer simply brushed off countless owner complaints. Also, no user FW update, how lame.

Now to the forum complaints. Of course you will have a lot of complaints about Onkyos. They sell more AVRs than anyone else. I do not have access to the numbers, and I do not want to punk on any manufacturers, but numbers is what it is about. With those numbers come more issues because folks do not log in and say "Hey, just thought I would post how great the AVR is working".

Now if I was ranking what I have seen, here we go:

Yamaha: very slick UI and remote along with user friendly get it done stuff. Very good. YPAO falls into last place in my book though.

Pioneer: my 23-TXH is a bit older but an Elite unit. Weak UI and you need to know what you are doing. MCACC is very powerfull stuff especially if you decide to go with a PC input to fool with it. I did not but see where it can be very helpful. No user FW update sucks but this may have changed with newer units. Very nice amp and no fans needed, just cranks away. MCACC finds it's way second in my book because I tried Audyssey.

Onkyo: they sell a ton of these things. The 809 and 818 are pretty much identical except for that latest XT32 and some missing connections on the back. So yes, you will see more comments about failure with Onkyo because "they sell a ton of these things". Yes, they both have two fans mounted inside, and the 809 ran hotter/used more electricity in standby than the 818, but now that has been solved. Still has the fans but the Onkyo is a brute. Audyssey is now my favorite.

Too bad the Pio could not do 3D or HDMI passthrough in standby which was my major complaint. BTW, I caught so much crap from old school folks on the Pio thread about this I gave up there. Really, no HDMI passthrough in standby? So now I am sure all units have this today but the knuckle draggers back there told me I was not a true video/audiophile. Some folks just want to watch the news before work without waking everyone up. To each his own, but as a final caveat, HDMI1.3 was a lot less problematic than 1.4. Of course we are all suffering from the BS copyright protection crap that is HDMI and sold to you as better but really just there because you may be a thief.
post #45 of 111
Further reitterated bottom line... if you want to step away from Denon...

GO WITH ONKYO OR YAMAHA

My vote goes to Onkyo and get a good extended warranty... I'm fairly certain you wont be sorry.
Edited by ten8yp - 10/2/12 at 1:05pm
post #46 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I do believe non of us has direct access to global failure records, statistics, even benchmarking among the brands mentioned in this thread, therefore IMHO any mentioning of A brand being more reliable than B brand is purely speculative, biased and is by no way based on real world facts.

Incorrect..
No speculation or biases..
We do have access to industry reliability data for AVRs..
And Yamaha is clearly the winner here for reliability by a significant measure.....

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
post #47 of 111
Yamaha has been making great amps since the beginning of time. Look at their M70 amps... Over 30 years old and they will still out perform most amps made today.

Yamaha is VERY reliable. I just don't like their "natural" sound. It's a personal preference.

Most problems with receivers now a days are cheap transistors. Most capacitor specifications are pretty close with all brand name stuff. They know people look at Caps now a days and spend money there due to spec wars, but they cheap on output transistors.
post #48 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Incorrect..
No speculation or biases..
We do have access to industry reliability data for AVRs..
And Yamaha is clearly the winner here for reliability by a significant measure.....
Just my $0.02... wink.gif

I'm curious. what rank does pioneer fall into?
post #49 of 111
Sound quality -- preamp section only, How do Yamaha Rx-A2010 or 3010 compare with the Denon or Pioneer?
post #50 of 111
Kind of off on a tangent, but, I've found one way to keep your electronics cool is to get some holes in the shelves. Ideally you want wire mesh shelving or perforated shelving, but few modern cabinets have that. If you have wood shelves, drilling a few 1" diameter holes under and/or above the AVR can make a big difference. Drill some holes in the bottom of the cabinet too. The top is trickier in that you may see the holes. I usually don't touch the top, but I make sure the heat can easily escape out the back.

in addition to keeping things cool, keeping things less humid also helps. Consumer electronic components are by and large water proof, but they're not hermetically sealed. Water can slowly diffuse through the coatings and lead to corrosion. Higher temps and higher humidity speeds up the process.
post #51 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamjam View Post

Sound quality -- preamp section only, How do Yamaha Rx-A2010 or 3010 compare with the Denon or Pioneer?

I've owned maybe 25 receivers in my lifetime from various manufacturers and to be honest, they all kind of sound the same. I don't know how you can compare the sound quality of pre-amps in that the pre-amps job is to alter sound. If you're asking specifically about calibration software. In my opinion audyssey xt32 is at the top. Everything below that, whether it's audyssey or ypao is very similar. I've never used mcacc.
post #52 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike kaw View Post

I'm curious. what rank does pioneer fall into?

Pioneer is 4th overall, however in AVRs >$899 (SRP) Elite is 3rd.

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
post #53 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Pioneer is 4th overall, however in AVRs >$899 (SRP) Elite is 3rd.

Can you provide a source for these numbers?

Willie
post #54 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

First of all to santora: please accept my sincere apologies for my touching of sensitiy private issues, ...I should have known better, so, its my fault, very much my fault for getting carried away in such an unfriendly manner. I stand corrected.

Apology accepted.

As for my issues with Denon, it appears you are a fan of theirs and frankly so am I. I have always loved the sound that comes out of them. However, the QC on the units has gone sharply downhill over the last few years and frankly to pay a premium to have a product that isn't rock solid just seems silly to me. That's my point of view and why I'm illiciting suggestions for other brands.

Mark
Edited by santora - 9/27/12 at 2:25pm
post #55 of 111
I am, as well, a victim of Denon's QC and customer service. I bought a Denon refurb AVR-2310 at the beginning of August which I received DOA - the subwoofer pre out did not work. I received a replacement in what I would consider not a very timely fashion, but right around 2 weeks later. Initially I was happy because the replacement turned out to be a AVR-2312. I say initially I was happy, because when I found the time to finally hook everything up and run the Audyssey setup, the receiver started going through a constant power off and power on cycle that was totally unrelated to any auto protect mode. After spending 2 days on the phone with Denon's tech support, they determined the unit would need to be repaired or replaced. I was told they would replace the unit, but the replacement would be a AVR-2310 because the AVR-2312 they had sent the first time was a mistake on their part. The strange thing is the box the unit came in was marked as a AVR-2310, but the serial number on the outside of the box did match the serial number of the unit inside the box, which was in fact, an AVR-2312. At that point, red flags should have been going off when QC is so bad that they can't even place the correct receiver in the correct box.

Anyway, I was told I could keep that unit if I wanted to have it repaired but that would need to approved by someone else, who would be contacting me by either phone or email. Customer service said they would email me a Fedex call tag as well in case I did want to send the unit in to be replaced with an AVR-2310. To make an already long story shorter, since last Friday when I was given these options I have never received a call or email from anyone at Denon even after constantly calling Denon usually around 3 times a day for the past 4 days and being promised each time it would be forwarded to a supervisor and I would be called back. I also have never received a Fedex call tag to return the receiver in case I just wanted it replaced. I contacted Panurgy about repairing the unit which they said they could do, filled out the SRA form, and then contacted Denon to inform them that I was sending the unit to Panurgy for repair. I was told that the paperwork would be forwarded to someone else and that person would contact me by phone, which of course, never happened. I have been driving around with a defective receiver boxed up in the back of my car for the past 4 days, just waiting for a call from someone, anyone, to tell me what the hell to do with it. At this point, I've contemplated making a video and posting it on Youtube of me dropping the receiver from various heights out of my office windows and repeatedly belting it with a sledge hammer with an caption stating when you purchase a Denon receiver, there's a 50/50 chance this is the most enjoyment you will ever get out of it which I believe would be more satisfying than receiving a replacement.

Please excuse my need to vent. I know there are several people who have purchased and used Denon products and never had any trouble and I'm also aware that problems can arise with any manufacturer. But to me, it's inexcusable that someone would ever receive two defective units in a row but more importantly, that it would be such a time consuming and arduous process to receive some sort of resolution. It has been nearly two months since I received the first defective unit and at this rate, the warranty will probably be close to expiring before the second defective unit has been repaired or replaced. Denon may have once been a reputable manufacturer, but from what I've read and my own personal experience, that is no longer the case.
post #56 of 111
Thread Starter 
Roytbum,

Sorry to hear about your issues, brother. I can luckily say that I did not have that level on incompetence. And I bought my 310ci new.

As it is I just heard from the shop and the issues I was having with my machine were "not repeatable." That pissed me off a bit. They dug into the unit and found that some of the voltage regulators were not up to snuff and replaced them I was told this is another one of those "Denon things." Since then it's been working perfectly but they're going to keep testing it over the next day and I can get it back tomorrow.

I reiterate, $1500 FOR A MACHINE WITH CRAPPY VOLTAGE REGULATORS, BAD HDMI Boards, and FLAWED Nic cards. Yeah, Denon deserves my money in the future - NOT.

Mark
post #57 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

Apology accepted.
As for my issues with Denon, it appears you are a fan of theirs and frankly so am I. I have always loved the sound that comes out of them. However, the QC on the units has gone sharply downhill over the last few years and frankly to pay a premium to have a product that isn't rock solid just seems silly to me. That's my point of view and why I'm illiciting suggestions for other brands.
Mark

Hi santora, thanks for your call. Well, actually I'm basically a fan of Audyssey. When I did my homework a couple of years ago looking for "which AVR to buy" I though digital room correction was a key issue for me worthwhile to be looked at in details, so after studying YPAO, MCACC and Audyssey, I found the first two are practically doing nothing for EQ'ing the bass department, while Audyssey is putting resources down there where its most needed. Then came the availability of AVRs with Audyssey, so I had to look into the case again and decide among Onkyo, Integra, Denon or Marantz. Owing to a kinda personal preference I finally went for the look and appearance of Denon. wink.gif

On another note, I think we need to agree that reliability is not a tangible item, not something we can buy and pay for (even if we'd like to, eh?). We can't pay double for a unit that has double reliability, coz there's no such thing in the world. Deciding on features we'd like to have are the only tangible items we can look into at the level of technology as of today.

Wish you good luck with your on-going project. smile.gif
post #58 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

Roytbum,
Sorry to hear about your issues, brother. I can luckily say that I did not have that level on incompetence. And I bought my 310ci new.
As it is I just heard from the shop and the issues I was having with my machine were "not repeatable." That pissed me off a bit. They dug into the unit and found that some of the voltage regulators were not up to snuff and replaced them I was told this is another one of those "Denon things." Since then it's been working perfectly but they're going to keep testing it over the next day and I can get it back tomorrow.
I reiterate, $1500 FOR A MACHINE WITH CRAPPY VOLTAGE REGULATORS, BAD HDMI Boards, and FLAWED Nic cards. Yeah, Denon deserves my money in the future - NOT.
Mark

I would stay away from Onkyo then.
post #59 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie View Post

Can you provide a source for these numbers?
Willie

Yes..
The research data is complied by New Bay Media and is proprietary to trade subscribers but here is a link for New Bay Media. New Bay Media is the primary publisher of the leading CE trade publications. Hit the Consumer Electronics /AV button (bottom right) and it will disclose the 40 different CE publications they produce/publish.

http://www.nbmedia.com



Just my $0.02... wink.gif
post #60 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

...any mentioning of A brand being more reliable than B brand is purely speculative, biased and is by no way based on real world facts.

One doesn't need a global repair history chart to glean which brands are more reliable. The testimonials and facts about production control speak for themselves. For instance Onkyo's used to heat up and fail a lot, but they've redesigned them to run a lot cooler, and I'm sure it will likely make a difference in reliability too.

There's nothing wrong with discussions involving customer feedback on their reliability experiences. As mentioned, a lot can be gleaned from it. Conversely consumer reports or other type reliability studies may not account for user neglect or abuse, bad batches here and there, or even damage in shipping. You simply don't know because they are just numbers vs actual testimonials where you can get a feel for how much knowledge and experience the end user has., IF you ask vs assume like you did initially.

I just feel to make a blanket statement implying that threads like this have no purpose is a disservice not only to the purpose of this forum, but it's many knowledgeable members whom have spent a lot of time and money buying, operating and sharing their experiences with and knowledge of AV gear. I'm hearing repeated praise for Yamaha and Pioneer on reliability, and I'll add that from my personal experience, Yamaha AVRs are also WAY easier to operate, more flexible and useful in their displays and presets, and have probably the best customer service out there.

Now you can wash that away as insignificant, but most know from personal experience that gleaning feedback from experienced users not only helps people decide what brands/models of AVRs to buy, it keeps the manufacturers more honest, just like we're seeing with Onkyo as of late. So while you ARE on the one hand apologizing for the prior insults, I don't feel you're fully respecting the weight and significance of end user feedback, esp when you have such a great forum as this where many knowledgeable members often step in and clarify any misinformation posted.
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